Alexander Ovechkin vs Jonathan Toews

[JagerMeister]

Simple question, who has been the better player so far into their careers? I Will try to be objective as I can

Argument for Ovechkin

plays on a lesser team yet his regular season stats are far more impressive from an offensive standpoint aND is also a fAR more accomplished player in terms of accolades. 5 rocket richards, 3 MVPS and 3 pearsons, he is most definitely the greatest goal scorer since the time he joined the league.

Argument for Toews

He has been the much more better two way forward since he joined the league, and unlike Ovechkin, he has been a far better playoff performer almost everytime(his Conn Smythe proves that) while Ovechkin hasn't been great in the playoffs since 2008-2009.....

Also, is arguably the greatest captain of his generation. The power of intangibles.

[AJgoal]

Toews is the best player in the world right now. He shows up and carries his team when it matters - in the playoffs. He has three Stanley Cups. Two Olympic Golds. The youngest player ever to join the triple gold club. Was named the best forward in the 2010 Olympics. Conn Smythe winner (2nd youngest ever). Perennial Selke candidate and one-time winner. Almost a point per game average in the playoffs.  506 career regular season points, +171. A higher percentage of GWG (19% vs 17%) than Ovechkin.

 

All that stuff matters.

 

Ovechkin scores a bunch of goals. Has never been out of the second round. Has 895 regular season points and is only a +57.

 

It's not even close.

[JagerMeister]

@AJgoal He does not carry his team . While he has shown that he can be the best player on the team during some playoff runs, I would argue that Keith and Kane are just as impactfull as he is.

Also you have to consider that Stanley cups are a team accomplishment, and should not be used when comparing which individual player is better. He has been on much better teams than Ovechkin. One last thing, the plus minus Stat is mostly a team based stat, and should also not have that much say in who is the better player.

[flyercanuck]

@JagerMeister

 

The plus/minus may be a team based stat...but if my $10 million a year captain can't be bothered backchecking, or even putting in an effort coming back, why the hell should I? That attitude affects plus/minus bigtime.

 

Just like if Toews decided he didn't give a crap about defence (like Ovechkin, or even his teammate Kane) he could put up much better numbers. He's got the talent to do it, he just cares more about winning.

[AJgoal]

There are absolutely playoff games where Toews has put his team on his back and said "We're winning this," and made sure it has happened. I think the Conn Smythe should be evidence enough of that.

 

Why shouldn't Stanley Cups be used? They are, after all, the whole point. It takes a team to win one, sure, but he was the best player out of all players in the whole tournament when his team won it for the first time. Ovechkin's never even been near that conversation.

 

And +/- is a skewed stat when looked at over a short period of time. But given that it's a career number, I'm comparing it to points (A guy with almost twice the points should come close to having a +/- in the same general area, not one that's a third of the other guy), and he's won the Selke once, finished second twice, third another time, and hasn't finished lower than sixth since the 2008-2009 season, while Ovechkin's never been nominated, I think its use here is appropriate.

[flyercanuck]

@JagerMeister

 

Put it this way, which guy would his team put out on the ice in game 7 with one minute left if they need a goal, OR of they need to stop the other team from scoring one? One guy is a no brainer in either situation, the other is a no brainer NOT TO in the latter situation.

[JagerMeister]

@flyercanuck I don't think the players look up to most team captains as much as we think, they probably know that being given the c is usually more of a popularity contest, and they know who the true leaders really are in the locker room. For all we know, quiet Nicklas Backstrom could be the real leader inside the locker room and Ovechkin being a defensive liability does not stop Backstrom from being an above average two way player

Also, I would like to think Hockey players have the mental strength to not think that way

[flyercanuck]

@JagerMeister

 

Fair enough...what about my last comment?

[JagerMeister]

@flyercanuck

 

Ovechkin is a no brainer if you need your goal and your Confident enough In your defense.......

However, the safer bet is probably Toews.

[JagerMeister]

There are absolutely playoff games where Toews has put his team on his back and said "We're winning this," and made sure it has happened. I think the Conn Smythe should be evidence enough of that.

 

Why shouldn't Stanley Cups be used? They are, after all,

the whole point

. It takes a team to win one, sure, but he was the best player out of all players in the whole tournament when his team won it for the first time. Ovechkin's never even been near that conversation.

 

And +/- is a skewed stat when looked at over a short period of time. But given that it's a career number, I'm comparing it to points (A guy with almost twice the points should come close to having a +/- in the same general area, not one that's a third of the other guy),

and

he's won the Selke once, finished second twice, third another time, and hasn't finished lower than sixth since the 2008-2009 season, while Ovechkin's never been nominated, I think its use here is appropriate.

yes I acknowledged that he has been their best player in some playoff runs, but so have Keith and Kane. When the Chicago Blackhawks win the Stanley cup, amongst their team, Keith, Kane and Toews are all legitimate candidates for the conn smythe. Plus, it's not like Toews was the clear cut winner for the smythe the year he won. He is arguably not even the best player on his team

I do believe Toews is the better playoff performer, but in a couple of seasons, Ovechkin was the main reason that Washington made the playoffs in the first place, Toews can't say the same be a use he admittedly plays in a stacked team.

I was not trying to argue that Ovechkin was better defensively, I just don't like team stats being used to compare individual players, but since you explained your reasoning, and it makes sense, it's all good

Also, while I find nothing wrong with you thinking toews is better than Ovechkin. I don't believe that it is not close.

[ScottM]

I'll put my answer this way: If you want to know who would rank higher on a "best players list," it's Ovechkin. As far as individual skills is concerned, I think he's the best player in the world right now. But, if you want to know who I'd choose to build my team around, it would be Toews, and I'm not sure that there's anyone I'd choose above him for that task. He's the best captain in the league, and as has already been noted, he has shown the ability to put his team on his back when needed. Just look at the Anaheim series.

So, it depends on what you want as to who I'd choose.

[JagerMeister]

I'll put my answer this way: If you want to know who would rank higher on a "best players list," it's Ovechkin. As far as individual skills is concerned, I think he's the best player in the world right now. But, if you want to know who I'd choose to build my team around, it would be Toews, and I'm not sure that there's anyone I'd choose above him for that task. He's the best captain in the league, and as has already been noted, he has shown the ability to put his team on his back when needed. Just look at the Anaheim series.

So, it depends on what you want as to who I'd choose.

one thing though, how do we even know he is the best captain/leader in the league? Because the media repeatedly shoves that fact down our throats? Does the media secretly film what goes on in the locker room? How do we even measure that? Sure he leads by example with his clutch plays in the playoffs, but he has had more opportunities to do that then anyone else on his stacked team, everyone is gonna pass to Toews, since he is probably their best goAL scorer. There were a few playoff series were Toews was not that much of an impact.

[ruxpin]

I'll simply put it this way, and I'm sure of it: if Toews and Ovechkin switch teams the past 6 years, the Black Hawks have A Richard winner and no rings.

The Caps at least have a finals appearance if not a parade.

If I have ten chances to pick one or the other to win a Cup, it's Toews all ten times. No, it's not close.

Once again, the point to hockey is not to play with oneself. It's to win the Cup. Ovechkin is a coach killing self absorbed Prima Donna who comes up predictably small every single year in the playoffs. Virtually disappears. He has such a killer instinct he disappeared in Sochi. Meanwhile Toews.

When it comes to leadership, there is no comparison. Zero. And when you're taking about captains, team results DO matter. Especially when talking about three in such a short period of time. Winning the Cup is why the game is played. Other than to sell beer, cars, and Viagra, there is no other reason.

We can talk about other players--and Keith is my very first pick on my "build your team" question--but Toews has captained at least two largely different groups to a Cup. And with Backstrom and Holtby and the defense the Caps assembled, it's not like Ovechkin was on his own (he arguably actually had the better goalie). Others have listed Selke and Conn Smythe accomplishments (I'll take one Conn Smythe over a boatload of Richards--with few exceptions, it indicates you won something).

Ovechkin plays HALF the game better than just about anyone. But he still only plays half the game. And while Toews is playing nearly every year when it matters, Ovechkin is playing golf in Minsk.

For me, this is laughably not close and there are players in between Toews and Ovechkin.

[JagerMeister]

I'll simply put it this way, and I'm sure of it: if Toews and Ovechkin switch teams the past 6 years, the Black Hawks have A Richard winner and no rings.

The Caps at least have a finals appearance if not a parade.

If I have ten chances to pick one or the other to win a Cup, it's Toews all ten times. No, it's not close.

Once again, the point to hockey is not to play with oneself. It's to win the Cup. Ovechkin is a coach killing self absorbed Prima Donna who comes up predictably small every single year in the playoffs. Virtually disappears. He has such a killer instinct he disappeared in Sochi. Meanwhile Toews.

When it comes to leadership, there is no comparison. Zero. And when you're taking about captains, team results DO matter. Especially when talking about three in such a short period of time. Winning the Cup is why the game is played. Other than to sell beer, cars, and Viagra, there is no other reason.

We can talk about other players--and Keith is my very first pick on my "build your team" question--but Toews has captained at least two largely different groups to a Cup. And with Backstrom and Holtby and the defense the Caps assembled, it's not like Ovechkin was on his own (he arguably actually had the better goalie). Others have listed Selke and Conn Smythe accomplishments (I'll take one Conn Smythe over a boatload of Richards--with few exceptions, it indicates you won something).

Ovechkin plays HALF the game better than just about anyone. But he still only plays half the game. And while Toews is playing nearly every year when it matters, Ovechkin is playing golf in Minsk.

For me, this is laughably not close and there are players in between Toews and Ovechkin.

 now your the one coming up with hypotheticals, even though when we argued about Hasek vs Brodeur i would bring up how Hasek would probably do even better on NJD and win just as much cups, this is what you said   "I'm giving you what was actual and you're giving me could haves and would haves." 

Atleast have some consistency in your arguments, You cant even say the bolded with absolute certainty. Ovechkin would not even need to be responsible defensively with seabrook and Keith behind him, he would just have the freedom to do whatever he wants in the offensive zone....

 

Yes Toews has "captained" two groups to a stanley cup, but its not like he was the clear cut best player during those cup wins. Why the hell does having the c matter so much? Its nothing but a popularity contest, you can give Keith the c and nothing would change.

 

 

Other than that, yes, Toews is the better playoff performer, I was never denying that in the first place. Toews plays half of the game far better than Ovechkin, but Ovechkin plays the other half better as well

[JagerMeister]

So, most of you have answered Toews, and for the majority of you, its not close at all....

 

So would you pick Toews over a Prime Jagr? Seeing as how a peak Ovechkin can be compared to a peak Jagr.

 

Perhaps the discussion would be a bit closer...

[yave1964]

I can break this down in three words.

 

Count the rings.

 

end of discussion.

[radoran]

end of discussion.

 

There really isn't a good "end of discussion" on a message board.

 

The whole point is the discussion, not "ending" it

 

[ruxpin]

There really isn't a good "end of discussion" on a message board.

 

The whole point is the discussion, not "ending" it

 

 

Despite how often Gummy tried.

[Unleashed Fury]

I will have to say The Great 8. Yes he has had good teams, but no really any other super stars unless you want to count Backstrom. He has the best shot in the game in my opinion and he is alwaays playing at 110%. By far the teams M.V.P. and without him they would be a team that wouldn't even come close to making the playoffs.

[Claude Monet]

Despite how often Gummy tried.

Wow forgot about that guy!

[BluPuk]

It's not a fair question. Ovechkin is not a "player" at all, he's a scorer.

 

Toews is a playmaker, a team leader and never takes a day off.

 

If hockey was only a one way game, Ovechkin would win by a mile.

[Polaris922]

This was a tough one for me. I really dislike Ovenchicken, but head to head he's ahead of the overrated Toews. Why? Talent. I appreciate Toews' leadership qualities, but I still think he's overrated.

The Hawks' three Cups are a statement of TEAM. Not Toews. You can have the greatest leader in history but without the right pieces not win a Cup. I like Toews but his stat lines aren't anywhere near Ovechkin's. Head to head on the ice, one on one, pure talent vs talent, who plays the game better?

Ovenchicken.

[mojo1917]

Towes 117 career playoff games .871ppg

Ovechkn 72 career playoff games .972ppg

 

almost 50 more playoff games played by Toews.  

Towes for me, all day everyday.

[JackStraw]

Kind of agree with @BluPuk, it's not really a good comparison. If the question is who do you build a team around, then I'd go with Toews, because a franchise center is more important than a franchise winger. If the question is who is better at the role he is expected to play on his team, then it's hard to argue against Ovechkin. It would make more sense to compare Kane with Ovechkin, in which case I take Ovechkin easily. Or Toews vs Backstrom, which I think is very close. Personally I think Backstrom is one of the most under rated players in the game, I rate him pretty even with Giroux. And I think those two and Toews are all right in the same elite group behind Crosby.

[Podein25]

Personally I think Backstrom is one of the most under rated players in the game

 

 

+1

 

And only because he plays in WSH. I rarely get to see him play and don't go looking for Caps games, but every time I see him I say, gimme that kind of center any day, every day.