Greatest Blackhawks player (post expansion)

[yave1964]

Post original six, who is the greatest Hawk player of all time?

I left some damn fine hockey players off this list, Kane and Duncan Keith for instance, they are not even in most top ten lists for the Hawks all time players yet as far as games or scoring, though in a few years they willl start climbing the roles and deserve a solid honorable mention. I put Toews on to represent the kids who are in mid career and still building their legends, you could have listed Keith instead and I would have been fine with it. Guys like Chelios, Magnusen, Doug Wilson and Roenick didnt make the list either. Chicago has a lot of talented players who spent most if not all of their career in one place. Here are my candidates for the greatest post original six era players in Hawk history:

 

JONATHAN TOEWS: 3 Stanley Cups including one Conn Smythe trophy along the way, a second team all star spot and frankly one of the best captains in the game today. Reminds me of Yzerman more than any player I have ever seen. Hard to believe he is only 27 years old. The legend continues.....

 

TONY ESPOSITO: The greatest season ever for a rookie goalie, bar none. 38 wins, an insane 15 shutouts, won the Calder and Vezina. From there he went on to play in net in the fabled Summit series, win 3 Vezina's and was a three time first team all star. 418 career wins and 74 career shutouts both in top ten all time.

 

STAN MIKITA: Was with Hawks in 1961 for their improbable cup win and stayed almsot forever, playing until 1980 with his entire 22 year career in Chicago. Second All time leader in goals with 541 and  first in points with 1467 played in 9 all star games, was a six time first team all star. a lot of that was pre expansion but post expansion he still managed 2 Bings a ross and a Hart. two thirds of his career past the imaginary line makes him an easy qualifier.

 

STEVE LARMER: Larmer was a heck of a goal scorer, 3rd all time in team history with 406 goals and 4th in points,  Larmer won the Calder trophy and five seperate times he scored at least 40 goals.

 

DENIS SAVARD: An underrated all time great set up man, 377 goals is 4th in Hawk history and he is 3rd behind only Hull and Mikita in scoring. (photo of Savard, Secord and Larmer) 5 times he broke 100 points, twice he scored 40 goals. First ballot Hall of famer.

 

Again, tough standards set in Chicago, Brett Hull only played five seasons post expansion with the Hawks before the lure of WHA money drew him away or he certainly would have been here. Happy voting.

 

WHO AM I? The primary return from the Bruins in the worst Hawks trade of all time where they sent Ken Hodge, Phil Esposito and Fred Stanfield for this one guy who played ten solid but unspectacular seasons in Chicago while the trio of Hodge, Espo and Stanfield helped the Bruins to a couple of cups and made them one of the top teams of the next decade. Ooops.

 

[ruxpin]

I went Toews. Captaining three Cups seals it. I'm sure I'll get a dissertation showing points and season averages and peak and all that rot.

You play for the Cup. He has three as Captain. I could care less about the other rot.

[FD19372]

In my mind, it has to be Toews hands-down.  He has captained 3 Cup teams and is the most clutch player in the game today in terms of the players he covers, and the huge goals he scores. Those other guys on the list were pretty great, especially Mikita and Esposito, who is unquestionably the Hawks best all-time goalie, but Toews is better. The guy is well on his way to the hockey HOF, and he is ONLY 27. It will be interesting to see what happens to the team if Kane is not back with them, but as long as Toews is there, they won't lack focus.

[ScottM]

With all due respect to Toews, in my mind, it has to be Mikita or Esposito, and I went with Mikita.

 

Yes, Toews is the best captain in the league today, and stacks up pretty well historically as well. He's one of the few reasons I don't write the Black Hawks out of the playoffs next season.

 

BUT, Mikita has two Hart Trophies and four scoring titles. I rank him sixth all-time among centers. I just can't put Toews up next to that despite how highly I think of him. Good choices here, and to me, Mikita is the cream of the crop.

 

Pit Martin in the pic?

[ScottM]

Oh, BTW, that trade is good evidence of the genius of Milt Schmidt.

[ruxpin]

With all due respect to Toews, in my mind, it has to be Mikita or Esposito, and I went with Mikita.

Yes, Toews is the best captain in the league today, and stacks up pretty well historically as well. He's one of the few reasons I don't write the Black Hawks out of the playoffs next season.

BUT, Mikita has two Hart Trophies and four scoring titles. I rank him sixth all-time among centers. I just can't put Toews up next to that despite how highly I think of him. Good choices here, and to me, Mikita is the cream of the crop.

Pit Martin in the pic?

I respect the hell out of a vote for Mikita. He's easily my second choice. For me, the Cups clinch it, but I do get the Mikita vote.

[ScottM]

I respect the hell out of a vote for Mikita. He's easily my second choice. For me, the Cups clinch it, but I do get the Mikita vote.

 

Yeah, it's all in the angle you view it from. I get the Toews vote. I think it's just the heights Mikita has in the mind of the wannabe historian in me that makes me lean so heavily toward him (and Tony O).

[yave1964]

@ruxpin@ScottM

 

I voted for Tony Esposito who somehow has slipped through the cracks and doesn't get the credit as an all time great tender. 7th all time in wins, 9th all time in shutouts, never won a cup which absolutely counts against him but he was remarkable.

  IMHO part of what counts against him is he was quiet compared to his vocal brother who won a couple of cups in Boston and never met a camera that he didn't like. And in Chicago Hull was the same way, Espo was a star in his own right but surrounded by players who tooted their own horn and he was fine with the shadows.

 

   Mikita, two Hart trophies are hard to ignore, I wrestled with him because a 22 year career touching 4 decades with one organization is remarkable in any era, he was a superstar and deserves to be remembered.

 

 Toews is well on his way towards a Hall of Fame career and has put Chicago back on the map after they were lost and irrelevant for years. The best Captain in the game today, like I said he reminds me of Yzerman who never really won much major hardware, he simply won and led by example. There are only a handful of players who I would specifically pay to see, he tops the list. I love the way he plays the game but i feel that he is still too early into his career to get the nod.

 

 Any of the three are worthy. Chicago actually was one of the better ones in here.

[JackStraw]

Why is Mikita on the list but not Hull? Hull started in '57, one year before Mikita. Neither of them are really "post expansion" imo.

[ScottM]

Why is Mikita on the list but not Hull? Hull started in '57, one year before Mikita. Neither of them are really "post expansion" imo.

 

A sizable portion of Mikita's career with the Hawks was post-expansion, while Hull bolted for the WHA pretty shortly thereafter.

[JackStraw]

A sizable portion of Mikita's career with the Hawks was post-expansion, while Hull bolted for the WHA pretty shortly thereafter.

 

Well, Mikita is the best of the ones listed but I voted for Esposito. Both Mikita and Hul had the bulk of their best years pre-expansion. Hull certainly did a lot more as a Blackhawk than Toews has done to this point in his career. If Hull had retired instead of jumped to the WHA he would still be considered one of the all-time greats. And why even bother to distinguish between pre and post expansion? At this point the NHL has existed almost as long post expansion as it did pre expansion. Hull imo is the greatest player in the Blackhawks history, pre or post expansion. Mikita probably a close 2nd.

[ruxpin]

Well, Mikita is the best of the ones listed but I voted for Esposito. Both Mikita and Hul had the bulk of their best years pre-expansion. Hull certainly did a lot more as a Blackhawk than Toews has done to this point in his career. If Hull had retired instead of jumped to the WHA he would still be considered one of the all-time greats. And why even bother to distinguish between pre and post expansion? At this point the NHL has existed almost as long post expansion as it did pre expansion. Hull imo is the greatest player in the Blackhawks history, pre or post expansion. Mikita probably a close 2nd.

 

The reason for post-expansion is that it gives most of us at least the possibility of having seen them play rather than just comparing numbers.

[JagerMeister]

I went Toews. Captaining three Cups seals it. I'm sure I'll get a dissertation showing points and season averages and peak and all that rot.

You play for the Cup. He has three as Captain. I could care less about the other rot.

So you chose him because he captained three cups?  If I were advocating Toews, I wouldn't simply state the number of cups he won, but the impact he has had on those cup wins. Anyone can be labeled as captain and win a couple of cups on a phenomenal team, but if they had minimal impact when the team won the cup, Then I wouldn't even consider using the cup argument.

 

Luckily, Toews has undeniably proven himself as a postseason performer.

[JagerMeister]

In my mind, it has to be Toews hands-down.  He has captained 3 Cup teams and is the most clutch player in the game today in terms of the players he covers, and the huge goals he scores. Those other guys on the list were pretty great, especially Mikita and Esposito, who is unquestionably the Hawks best all-time goalie, but Toews is better. The guy is well on his way to the hockey HOF, and he is ONLY 27. It will be interesting to see what happens to the team if Kane is not back with them, but as long as Toews is there, they won't lack focus.

Toews is arguably not even the most clutch player on his team, same can be said for him being the best player on the team.

[ruxpin]

So you chose him because he captained three cups?  If I were advocating Toews, I wouldn't simply state the number of cups he won, but the impact he has had on those cup wins. Anyone can be labeled as captain and win a couple of cups on a phenomenal team, but if they had minimal impact when the team won the cup, Then I wouldn't even consider using the cup argument.

 

Luckily, Toews has undeniably proven himself as a postseason performer.

 

I was hoping all that was implied since I was on my phone and didn't feel like typing a dissertation.   Plus, some of us have other things to do.

[FD19372]

Toews is arguably not even the most clutch player on his team, same can be said for him being the best player on the team.

They don't beat Anaheim in last year's WCF without him, plain and simple with 2 goals in Game 7 on the road. Great example of him being the most clutch.

[ScottM]

They don't beat Anaheim in last year's WCF without him, plain and simple with 2 goals in Game 7 on the road. Great example of him being the most clutch.

 

I said in another thread earlier that while Keith absolutely deserved the Conn Smythe he wouldn't have won it without Toews's performance in the Anaheim series since they wouldn't have gotten to the Finals. To me, you can argue who's better between Toews and Keith, but not who's more clutch. Toews wins the latter in a walk to me, and that's why I consider him to be the league's best captain and the team's MVP.

[jammer2]

  I"m going with Mikita for right now, but I do believe Toews will surpass him, and fairly soon. Stan was an outright superstar, and didn't really have a ton of depth around him...AND, he did make those around him much better players. I'd be real tempted to leave out Larmer (as much as I liked his game) in favour of Pit Martin.

 

 There are not many defensive defensemen who will make this type of list, BUT....if there was one to make it, I'd pick Kieth Magnuson in a heartbeat. LOVED his game, a TRUE warrior in every sense of the word. Some of my favourite memories of a kid was seeing Kieth full of blood, badly damaged by a fight with an opponent, only to see him go back for more in the following period. He had great drive (pun intended)....to soon?

[JagerMeister]

  I"m going with Mikita for right now, but I do believe Toews will surpass him, and fairly soon. Stan was an outright superstar, and didn't really have a ton of depth around him...AND, he did make those around him much better players. I'd be real tempted to leave out Larmer (as much as I liked his game) in favour of Pit Martin.

 

 There are not many defensive defensemen who will make this type of list, BUT....if there was one to make it, I'd pick Kieth Magnuson in a heartbeat. LOVED his game, a TRUE warrior in every sense of the word. Some of my favourite memories of a kid was seeing Kieth full of blood, badly damaged by a fight with an opponent, only to see him go back for more in the following period. He had great drive (pun intended)....to soon?

That will prove to be an exceedingly difficult task for Toews to surpass Mikita IMO. Mikita is indisputably the better regular season performer and Toews isn't going to win any Art Ross, MVP or Lester B Pearson trophies. However, Toews can make his already illustrious post season career and improve on it, he needs to continue to be of major impact during the postseason and maybe even win another Conn Smythe, or have a few more extroardinary postseason performances, then Toews might have a case.

[JagerMeister]

They don't beat Anaheim in last year's WCF without him, plain and simple with 2 goals in Game 7 on the road. Great example of him being the most clutch.

Didn't Toews also have minimal impact against most of the Tampa Bay series?

 

Also, Kane has the same amount of GWG as Toews so...

[FD19372]

Didn't Toews also have minimal impact against most of the Tampa Bay series?

 

Also, Kane has the same amount of GWG as Toews so...

You're right, however, Toews also wins key draws, kills penalties and shuts down the other teams top forwards. You could argue, as you did, that Toews was not very impactful in the finals but he played very well versus Stamkos in key moments of the series, at junctures where seizing momentum were crucial. Was Keith deserving over him for Conn Smythe and finals MVP, yes. Do they win it all without Toews work on the PK against Tampa's top line? I say no. Stamkos, while effective, was not as effective as he normally his on the score sheet because of Toews. Same with Getzlaf, Toews shadowed and shut him down whenever he was called upon to do so. Kane has two jobs, IMO, and he does them extremely well, shoots the puck and creates space for his teammates with his very good speed. Toews does those two things AND all of the things I mentioned in my second sentence.