Entry Draft/Expansion Draft

[OccamsRazor]

25 minutes ago, sekkes85 said:

 

If Schenn is asking for 5-6.5 with multiple years I'm laughing in his agents face and saying let someone else give that to you, we'll take their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks for compensation

 

 

Exactly he is a RFA not a UFA. I'll take the picks too.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, JJMason33 said:

Lets not forget the topic of this thread and how the expansion draft effects these decisions.  Next season Morin and Ghost have to be protected.  And when they do another expansion the next year you will only be able to protect 3 out of Morin, Sanheim, Provorov, and Ghost.  Unless you keep Provorov in the Juniors for another year. 

 

It's not like those of us advocating for a trade are asking to trade "All our top prospects".  And we are definitely not saying to trade them for some "all-star" on a huge contract.  We are saying trade 1 of the 4 we have to give us offensive talent.  In the past the Flyers would trade players like Sbisa, Pitkanen, and Niinimaa early, but the difference is back then there was nothing in the pipeline to replace those guys.  Now is different because if you trade 1 guy, you still have 3 others... possibly 4 that are about equal.  And you can also hold onto guys that play a part of veteran leadership like Del Zotto, Gudas, and Manning.

 

I keep hearing that if you hold onto this defense we will be scary in a few years.  Not true.  Just because you can hold a team to 1-2 goals does not mean your going to win.  Especially if you cant score more than 1 goal.  Look at Nashville.  They are a great example of a team having amazing defensive prospects, that turn into amazing players, but can't win to save their lives.  Heck, they lost Suter and how many others.  You have to be able to ice a well rounded team.  Not just one stacked in defense and goalie.  That is why I say make a move for this Laine kid.  I'm ok with losing Schenn and Morin for him.  Even Schenn and Sanheim if need be.  Schenn is going to cost us big money soon.  Not Giroux money, but the longer we eat into his UFA years the worse its going to be.  I'm guessing 5-6.5 depending on the years.  He just isn't a 6.5 million a year player IMO.

 

Nashville doesn't have Giroux and Voracek and Simmonds and Schenn and Couturier and Konecny. And 10 picks in this draft. Including 5 in the first 3 rounds. They lost Suter cause he wanted to play in Minnesota (Nashville isn't exactly hockey central) I doubt Provorov wants to play in Russia. Or Sanheim wants to play in Elkhorn.

 

Would I trade Schenn and Morin for Laine? Sure. I bet Winnipeg won't though. Would I trade Schenn and Sanheim and a 1st or two for him....no.

 

Did you really mention Manning as a keeper?

[murraycraven]

3 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Nashville doesn't have Giroux and Voracek and Simmonds and Schenn and Couturier and Konecny. And 10 picks in this draft. Including 5 in the first 3 rounds. They lost Suter cause he wanted to play in Minnesota (Nashville isn't exactly hockey central) I doubt Provorov wants to play in Russia. Or Sanheim wants to play in Elkhorn.

 

Would I trade Schenn and Morin for Laine? Sure. I bet Winnipeg won't though. Would I trade Schenn and Sanheim and a 1st or two for him....no.

 

Did you really mention Manning as a keeper?

 

 

[Bertmega]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

In all fairness, they were pretty damn good for a few years. (better than McDud and Therien 

 

Howe and MacCrimmon for me.

What no love for  Luke Richardson and Karl Dykhuis?

 

Here is an interesting article from 17 years ago where the Flyers D was best described as suspect. 

 

http://articles.philly.com/1999-04-01/sports/25520276_1_karl-dykhuis-chris-therien-eric-desjardins

 

Funny thing is now the team is on the right track to have one of the best blue lines in the NHL and now it must be traded away? Gotta love Flyers fans. However, I do see where the OP is coming from and there are many needs facing this team at the current moment. 

[AJgoal]

2 hours ago, JJMason33 said:

Lets not forget the topic of this thread and how the expansion draft effects these decisions.  Next season Morin and Ghost have to be protected.  And when they do another expansion the next year you will only be able to protect 3 out of Morin, Sanheim, Provorov, and Ghost.  Unless you keep Provorov in the Juniors for another year. 

 

Not true. They would have the option to protect all four at the expense of exposing a couple extra forwards (8 total skaters). There's still no indication of how many expansion teams will be added in 2017 yet. It's a moot point if they add both right away. And as you said, if they add one and one, Hextall has the option of keeping Provorov in juniors for another season. Ditto Myers. Fans won't like it this year, but it will allow Hextall to keep more guys.

 

If you want to move up in the draft, moving one of the prospects isn't the way to go about it. I'd be willing to talk Neuvirth with Calgary, maybe MDZ with Edmonton (either one as part of a package including #18+). Some of the forwards. I don't see Streit getting you much at the draft (he's a deadline guy), unless it's a later pick from a playoff team. I'm not going overboard on an offer - 18, Neuvirth or MDZ, and a 2nd for #6 or #4, if that doesn't get you close then so be it.

 

But hang onto the D prospects. You never know when any of them will be ready to make an impact, or if they ever will. Where are you if you trade Sanheim, he goes on to win the Norris, and Provorov tops out as a #4? Or in the unlikely event that Ivan busts completely at the NHL level? Let's see how they fare for the Flyers before dealing them away.

[JJMason33]

2 hours ago, sekkes85 said:

 

If Schenn is asking for 5-6.5 with multiple years I'm laughing in his agents face and saying let someone else give that to you, we'll take their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks for compensation

You can get by cheaper on a short term contract, but that means he is going to cash in at UFA.  Couturier cashed in at 4.3, and doesn't have anywhere near Schenn's offensive numbers.

My prediction on numbers is..

2 year deal - 4.5 million then becomes UFA

3 year deal 5.25 million

4 year deal 5.75 million

5 plus 6 million with NTC or 6.5 without

 

I think if you traded Schenn you could get a 1st, 2nd and 3rd... that is not a bargin for him.  Maybe if the first was top 10, but otherwise.... I would rather determine what I am getting for him.

 

[JJMason33]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Nashville doesn't have Giroux and Voracek and Simmonds and Schenn and Couturier and Konecny. And 10 picks in this draft. Including 5 in the first 3 rounds. They lost Suter cause he wanted to play in Minnesota (Nashville isn't exactly hockey central) I doubt Provorov wants to play in Russia. Or Sanheim wants to play in Elkhorn.

 

Would I trade Schenn and Morin for Laine? Sure. I bet Winnipeg won't though. Would I trade Schenn and Sanheim and a 1st or two for him....no.

 

Did you really mention Manning as a keeper?

Ideally Schenn, Morin and a First and Second.

Or Schenn, Sanheim, and 2 seconds

 

And yes, Manning is a decent 6-7th D-man that wont cost you an arm and leg.  It's not team Canada where Pronger is playing 3rd pairing.

[sekkes85]

Couturier

1 minute ago, JJMason33 said:

Couturier cashed in at 4.3, and doesn't have anywhere near Schenn's offensive numbers.

 

I think if you traded Schenn you could get a 1st, 2nd and 3rd... that is not a bargin for him.  Maybe if the first was top 10, but otherwise.... I would rather determine what I am getting for him.

 

 

Couturier also shuts down the oppositions top line, more often than not successfully.  He leaves you wanting more in terms of offense of course, but the kid is still 23.  Schenn had 20 more points than Coots with 17 more games played and a heck of a lot more PP and offensive zone starts.  I can not see the Flyers paying him any more than Coot's 4.3 cap hit.

[JJMason33]

1 hour ago, Bertmega said:

What no love for  Luke Richardson and Karl Dykhuis?

 

Here is an interesting article from 17 years ago where the Flyers D was best described as suspect. 

 

http://articles.philly.com/1999-04-01/sports/25520276_1_karl-dykhuis-chris-therien-eric-desjardins

 

Funny thing is now the team is on the right track to have one of the best blue lines in the NHL and now it must be traded away? Gotta love Flyers fans. However, I do see where the OP is coming from and there are many needs facing this team at the current moment. 

Man, you should write for the Huffington Post the way you turn meanings.  Since when did trading 1 guy mean trading them all?

[JJMason33]

12 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

Not true. They would have the option to protect all four at the expense of exposing a couple extra forwards (8 total skaters). There's still no indication of how many expansion teams will be added in 2017 yet. It's a moot point if they add both right away. And as you said, if they add one and one, Hextall has the option of keeping Provorov in juniors for another season. Ditto Myers. Fans won't like it this year, but it will allow Hextall to keep more guys.

 

If you want to move up in the draft, moving one of the prospects isn't the way to go about it. I'd be willing to talk Neuvirth with Calgary, maybe MDZ with Edmonton (either one as part of a package including #18+). Some of the forwards. I don't see Streit getting you much at the draft (he's a deadline guy), unless it's a later pick from a playoff team. I'm not going overboard on an offer - 18, Neuvirth or MDZ, and a 2nd for #6 or #4, if that doesn't get you close then so be it.

 

But hang onto the D prospects. You never know when any of them will be ready to make an impact, or if they ever will. Where are you if you trade Sanheim, he goes on to win the Norris, and Provorov tops out as a #4? Or in the unlikely event that Ivan busts completely at the NHL level? Let's see how they fare for the Flyers before dealing them away.

You can't run a team based on what ifs.  If you did you would be paralyzed to make any type of move.  What if Umberger recovers and scores 30 goals and is a selkie nominated forward and wins the cup with tampa next year.  Oh well I guess we shouldn't buy him out then.  What if we play Ghost and he hurts his leg again.  Guess we should just sit him.

 

Smart calculated moves are ok.  Nothing is certain except taxes and death... well these days just death.  All indications are Provorov is the man.  Ghost is pretty close to the man. 

 

 

 

On a side note, Laine isn't the only option out there.  If Tampa resigns Stamkos I would look at Drouin.  I would also look at Nichushkin.  IMO you could get him straight up for Morin.  They both are slow developing and were taken 1 spot from each other.  Cant get closer in value than that.  Yakupov is another option.  And even Radulov.  Personally I would do after Radulov like a Zherdev contract and see what you can do in addition to grabbing one of the above mentioned guys or Laine.

[murraycraven]

11 minutes ago, Bertmega said:

However, I do see where the OP is coming from and there are many needs facing this team at the current moment. 

 

 

agree Bert - to an extent

 

Flyers are in a good position with the defense and goalies... however, most fans see the lack of offense and panic.   I can't say this enough but this Team will look drastically different in 2-3 years and that is when they should be legitimately starting to hit the upswing in terms of contending.   Travis K will help but we also have to remember that Hextall will have some flexibility with the cap in the coming years.   Right now we are starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to Homers horrible contract.   

 

I fully expect that Jake can and will be better than what he showed this year.   Frankly, has has to be better to justify that contract.  We know what we have in Simmonds and Giroux.  Couts is still a bit of an unknown but at worst he is an incredibly good 3rd line shutdown center.   Schenn seemed to really flourish under Hak and continues to improve each year...  Minus some of the dead weight like RJ coming off the books and we are in a pretty good position.  If you can move Read for a bag of dirty jocks then do it..

 

I think the future is bright but it requires patience.   

[sekkes85]

I would be ok with trading a young d prospect for an equally skilled offensive prospect (except for Provorov).  However you have to think too, how much better a mediocre forward is going to look when no matter what defensive pairing on the back can get a clean crisp pass on a rushing forward.  Even if they aren't going to bury it often it generates chances and will put the Flyers in the offensive zone.  Having all these offensive/2 way dmen are going to make the forwards a lot more effective even with just cycling the puck.  Our PP could truly be a force for years to come.

 

The only part I don't want to think about is what is going to happen when all these guys are due big contracts.

[AJgoal]

21 minutes ago, JJMason33 said:

You can't run a team based on what ifs.  If you did you would be paralyzed to make any type of move.  What if Umberger recovers and scores 30 goals and is a selkie nominated forward and wins the cup with tampa next year.  Oh well I guess we shouldn't buy him out then.  What if we play Ghost and he hurts his leg again.  Guess we should just sit him.

 

First, there are what ifs and there are what ifs. Your scenario with Umberger is patently absurd based on recent history and trends (And I still don't know that I'd bother buying out Umberger rather than let his contract expire naturally). When you're dealing with prospects, all kinds of variables come into play that make what I posited completely possible. Who would you rather have on your team, Braydon Coburn or Shea Weber? Now, who was the higher-rated prospect coming out of juniors? The fact remains that these players are still kids, growing into their bodies, who will have to adjust to the game at a higher level. Some do it faster than others, some do it better than others, and some don't do it at all.

 

And, since your assertion that they can't keep Morin, Ghost, Provorov, and Sanheim protected is false, we can afford to indulge this particular what if. 

[JJMason33]

3 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

First, there are what ifs and there are what ifs. Your scenario with Umberger is patently absurd based on recent history and trends (And I still don't know that I'd bother buying out Umberger rather than let his contract expire naturally). When you're dealing with prospects, all kinds of variables come into play that make what I posited completely possible. Who would you rather have on your team, Braydon Coburn or Shea Weber? Now, who was the higher-rated prospect coming out of juniors? The fact remains that these players are still kids, growing into their bodies, who will have to adjust to the game at a higher level. Some do it faster than others, some do it better than others, and some don't do it at all.

 

And, since your assertion that they can't keep Morin, Ghost, Provorov, and Sanheim protected is false, we can afford to indulge this particular what if. 

I disagree.  This offense is anemic at best.  You can keep adding guys from #18-30 all you want, but your rarely going to kind a pure goal scorer outside the top ten.  Someone I think Giroux and Voracek need to play with.  A guy that can shoot the wings off a fly from center ice.  If I would compare it with anything its like not giving McNabb any receivers.

[AJgoal]

14 minutes ago, JJMason33 said:

You can keep adding guys from #18-30 all you want, but your rarely going to kind a pure goal scorer outside the top ten. 

 

Three of the top five, and five of the top ten goal scorers this year were drafted outside of the top 15. Two, including the #2 guy on the list, were drafted in the 200s. Only one of the others was drafted anywhere other than first overall, which you aren't getting.

 

And the Flyers had the #15 goal scorer on the list.

[pilldoc]

4 hours ago, murraycraven said:

... i was watching Provorov last night

 

I DVR'd the game....gonna watch later tonight.

[Bertmega]

1 hour ago, JJMason33 said:

Man, you should write for the Huffington Post the way you turn meanings.  Since when did trading 1 guy mean trading them all?

It was more a rib on the typical Flyers fan; which is trade everything for the next great one..... Not a direct shot at you at all, I can assure you of that. In fact, the original subject of the post is certainly something that the local sports media will not dare to cover. And I can see your logic in having to give to get, especially with the expansion draft looming.

 

From my stand point though, I would not want to send anything away from the Flyers budding blue line. I just have never seen this much drafted or developed talent in the system. And quite frankly it's refreshing. 

 

The Flyers have a lot of ammo with all the pick in the first three rounds and a few pending RFAs. I could see them trading down next month, but probably around 8-10. 

[murraycraven]

41 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

I DVR'd the game....gonna watch later tonight.

 

it was a tough game but you can just see this kids poise and skill... not afraid to hit either...

[murraycraven]

2 hours ago, JJMason33 said:

You can get by cheaper on a short term contract, but that means he is going to cash in at UFA.  Couturier cashed in at 4.3, and doesn't have anywhere near Schenn's offensive numbers.

My prediction on numbers is..

2 year deal - 4.5 million then becomes UFA

3 year deal 5.25 million

4 year deal 5.75 million

5 plus 6 million with NTC or 6.5 without

 

I think if you traded Schenn you could get a 1st, 2nd and 3rd... that is not a bargin for him.  Maybe if the first was top 10, but otherwise.... I would rather determine what I am getting for him.

 

 

 

Schenn is not even in the same rink when it comes to his defensive game compared to Couts.   Couts was paid b/c of his defensive Selke worthy type defensive game.  There is also and unknown upside to what Couts can do offensively give better zone starts and more responsibility.   And if he is Schenn signs another bridge deal that is probably more in favor of the Flyers.   I have no issue with allowing Schenn earning his next big UFA contract.   

[RonJeremy]

Ok , lets day we get Jones at 18, and gauthier and bellow are still available after we pick , would two second rounders be enough to get the 19th or 20th pick ? Id love to see us land 2 power forwards in one draft.

[AJgoal]

18 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Ok , lets day we get Jones at 18, and gauthier and bellow are still available after we pick , would two second rounders be enough to get the 19th or 20th pick ? Id love to see us land 2 power forwards in one draft.

 

I seriously doubt it. #29 and #61 only got you to #24 last year. The Flyers sit with #48 and #52. I don't know if those two get you into the first at all, much less up to 19/20.

[flyercanuck]

47 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Ok , lets day we get Jones at 18, and gauthier and bellow are still available after we pick , would two second rounders be enough to get the 19th or 20th pick ? Id love to see us land 2 power forwards in one draft.

 

Sometimes it's good to have more darts to throw at the board too.

[OccamsRazor]

I can see TK going back to juniors if for no other reason for the expansion draft that is coming but it's more on it would hurt him to get some more time developing. I think Sarnia would have had a deeper push in the playoffs had he not got hurt.

 

But Ivan after win the defenseman of the CHL and winning a title in the WHL has done everything except winning the Memorial Cup. He will be a Flyer next year.

[notfondajane]

Is expansion official?

[J0e Th0rnton]

Sharks just wait till after expansion draft to resign UFA's Thornton, Burns and possibly Marleau and Wingels. Thornton, Marleau and Burns at least would certainly do an under the table handshake given they want to keep playing for the Sharks. Unless Marleau chooses to retire since he is regressing.

 

Protect Hertl, Pavelski, Couture, Donskoi, Tierney, Ward, Goldobin?

Vlasic, Braun, Martin or Demelo?

 

And Jones of course.

 

Well, that seems easy on paper. Assuming they don't put into play some loophole preventing teams from signing their own UFA's after expansion draft to force them to sign them prior to it if they plan on keeping the guys. Not may teams have multiple Marquee UFA's so they should not have to put in a rule.