Do The Red Wings Have a Future in Detroit?

[WordsOfWisdom]

If curious if/how the Detroit Red Wings are profitable given the problems being experienced by the city of Detroit.

 

This doesn't look like a city that can support an NHL team any longer:

 

 

 

 

I've always known Detroit was a dangerous city. Whenever I'm travelling into the US, the car never stops in Detroit. Quite frankly, it never stops in Michigan either. To see videos like this is almost beyond belief. Are these people cherry picking their facts or is this for real? 

[Haliax]

Detroit has middle class/rich suburbs just like any other city. Posting videos like this is not indicative of what has ever been the target market of the team, and is ridiculous cherry picking. Michigan still has a population of 10 million.  This isn't Winnipeg where it is the only populous area to draw from. 

 

Beyond the silliness of the question in general, they are also building a new arena and Illitch is spending hundreds of millions of dollars renovating the area where the new arena is being built. That should put into perspective just how preposterous (and borderline inflammatory) a question like this is.

[WordsOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, Haliax said:

Detroit has middle class/rich suburbs just like any other city. Posting videos like this is not indicative of what has ever been the target market of the team, and is ridiculous cherry picking. Michigan still has a population of 10 million.  This isn't Winnipeg where it is the only populous area to draw from. 

 

Beyond the silliness of the question in general, they are also building a new arena and Illitch is spending hundreds of millions of dollars renovating the area where the new arena is being built. That should put into perspective just how preposterous (and borderline inflammatory) a question like this is.

 

But the problems the city of Detroit is experiencing seem to go far beyond what any other major city in North America is experiencing. Widespread unemployment. A mass exodus of the population. Lowest median income in the country. How does that not have an effect on a pro sports team?

 

At least that's my two cents.

 

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

FYI: I'm not trying to make this into a race thing. I'm looking purely at the overall numbers. The city has gone from a high of 1.8 million people down to ~670,000. 

 

 

[Haliax]

37 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

But the problems the city of Detroit is experiencing seem to go far beyond what any other major city in North America is experiencing. Widespread unemployment. A mass exodus of the population. Lowest median income in the country. How does that not have an effect on a pro sports team?

 

At least that's my two cents.

 

 

I already answered that. Suburbs and a wider population than just the city itself. You haven't in any way demonstrated why it would cause significant enough issues for the organization for anyone to be concerned about their future. The team has only increased its value in recent years and continues to show profits. Even the Detroit Lions, perennial losers, were filled to 94% capacity last year. The Tigers are in the top half of the MLB for attendance statistics. The Pistons are really the only team with serious concerns with attendance, despite any indicators of the city itself shrinking. Michigan has had pretty steady population numbers for the past decade, and are still pretty much at the peak.

 

The Red Wings are fine. They are 8th overall in NHL team values, and that should only increase when they move into the new arena next year.

[WordsOfWisdom]

8 hours ago, Haliax said:

I already answered that. Suburbs and a wider population than just the city itself. You haven't in any way demonstrated why it would cause significant enough issues for the organization for anyone to be concerned about their future.

 

How long does it take to drive from the suburbs you speak of to the arena to watch games? (The fact that the Coyotes weren't located in downtown Phoenix is always cited as an issue that hurts attendance.) If the team is located downtown and nobody lives in or around downtown, how can that not affect attendance? Strange.

 

8 hours ago, Haliax said:

The team has only increased its value in recent years and continues to show profits.

 

That's great news for Detroit fans, assuming any of them still live in Detroit, or would it be fair to say that Detroit's fans live in southern Ontario and make the trek across the border from Windsor, Sarnia, London, etc. to watch the Red Wings?

 

8 hours ago, Haliax said:

The Red Wings are fine. They are 8th overall in NHL team values, and that should only increase when they move into the new arena next year.

 

That would be great news. They're an original six team. I guess I just don't know how they're doing it given all of those external factors at play.   

 

Also, if the trend continues, what happens when the population of Detroit reaches 250,000? 150,000? 

 

Historical population
Census	Pop.		%±
1820	1,422		—
1830	2,222		56.3%
1840	9,102		309.6%
1850	21,019		130.9%
1860	45,619		117.0%
1870	79,577		74.4%
1880	116,340		46.2%
1890	205,876		77.0%
1900	285,704		38.8%
1910	465,766		63.0%
1920	993,678		113.3%
1930	1,568,662		57.9%
1940	1,623,452		3.5%
1950	1,849,568		13.9%
1960	1,670,144		−9.7%
1970	1,514,063		−9.3%
1980	1,203,368		−20.5%
1990	1,027,974		−14.6%
2000	951,270		−7.5%
2010	713,777		−25.0%
Est. 2015	677,116	[113]	−5.1%

 

From wikipedia.com

[ScottM]

1 hour ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

How long does it take to drive from the suburbs you speak of to the arena to watch games? (The fact that the Coyotes weren't located in downtown Phoenix is always cited as an issue that hurts attendance.) If the team is located downtown and nobody lives in or around downtown, how can that not affect attendance? Strange.

 

 

That's great news for Detroit fans, assuming any of them still live in Detroit, or would it be fair to say that Detroit's fans live in southern Ontario and make the trek across the border from Windsor, Sarnia, London, etc. to watch the Red Wings?

 

 

That would be great news. They're an original six team. I guess I just don't know how they're doing it given all of those external factors at play.   

 

Also, if the trend continues, what happens when the population of Detroit reaches 250,000? 150,000? 

 

Historical population
Census	Pop.		%±
1820	1,422		—
1830	2,222		56.3%
1840	9,102		309.6%
1850	21,019		130.9%
1860	45,619		117.0%
1870	79,577		74.4%
1880	116,340		46.2%
1890	205,876		77.0%
1900	285,704		38.8%
1910	465,766		63.0%
1920	993,678		113.3%
1930	1,568,662		57.9%
1940	1,623,452		3.5%
1950	1,849,568		13.9%
1960	1,670,144		−9.7%
1970	1,514,063		−9.3%
1980	1,203,368		−20.5%
1990	1,027,974		−14.6%
2000	951,270		−7.5%
2010	713,777		−25.0%
Est. 2015	677,116	[113]	−5.1%

 

From wikipedia.com

 

The population of the city proper isn't the correct stat to look at for something like this. The population of the metropolitan area is a much better indication of the true population of the region, and Detroit's population in that respect is over 3.7 million, which is the 11th highest in the US. If you look at it as the combined statistical area with Flint, that number swells to over 5.3 million.

 

Besides all of that, Detroit has a very rich hockey history and rapid fans that still respect it greatly. I know people who live in or have lived in Michigan (including Detroit itself), and that fan base is alive and well. The Red Wings are there to stay, and with very good reason.

[WingNut722]

The City of Detroit is not without its problems.  It's had a helluva decline over the last 50 years and that's a long time to be in socioeconomic freefall.  However, there are a lot, and I mean A LOT of redevelopment and revitalization issues currently underway and a lot of it is revolutionary out-of-the-box thinking.  From solar farms, to U-Pick apple orchards and, yes, even a return of commercial farming.  There's a large craft brew explosion in Detroit and its neighboring suburbs, even going so far as to be bring back the old Stroh's label.  Many other new designer fashion and clothing manufacturers are also taking up residence in the Motor City.  Add that to the new Red Wings Arena and the marketplace area around it, the quickly rising property values.  

 

If a couple idiots with a video camera go looking for the worst to be found in the City, they might also do themselves a favor and go looking for the best of it too, instead of perpetuating their ignorance.  They may find that not all of it is drive-through-the-red-lights territory.

 

It drives me absolutely bananas to see that people are still stomping on Detroit without looking to the future.  The City is making a considerable effort, but yes they have a long way to go.  "The journey of a thousand miles..."  

[Haliax]

5 hours ago, ScottM said:

 

The population of the city proper isn't the correct stat to look at for something like this. The population of the metropolitan area is a much better indication of the true population of the region, and Detroit's population in that respect is over 3.7 million, which is the 11th highest in the US. If you look at it as the combined statistical area with Flint, that number swells to over 5.3 million.

 

Besides all of that, Detroit has a very rich hockey history and rapid fans that still respect it greatly. I know people who live in or have lived in Michigan (including Detroit itself), and that fan base is alive and well. The Red Wings are there to stay, and with very good reason.

This is basically what I've been trying to say. And that Metro-Detroit area is holding strong in terms of population, pretty much unchanged in the last decade or so.

 

And it's odd that anyone would assume that Wings fans are coming from London, ON (which is 2.5 hours away), rather than from Metro Detroit. There are obviously fans that do make that trek, but they are the very small minority.

[yave1964]

Detroit will always be able to maintain the team. The fan base comes from all over the state, in fact from all over this country and parts of Canada. If areas like Sunrise where many fans show up dressed as empty seats and Phoenix/Flagstaff/Tuscon/Scottsdale or whatever raging metropolis that the Coyotes are rumored to be playing in on any given week can support a team then surely Detroit will. It is silly to think otherwise.

  Is the city a mess? Absolutely, but this is a HOCKEY forum, not a political one,.

@Haliax I live an hour north of Columbus and get to the Joe a time or two a year, as well as making the six hour drive to Grand Rapids at least once a year to watch the Griffins play live. And when I am at a game, I make a point of conversing with fans I am sitting near, you would be amazed at how many people come from a lot further than I to watch a game. To say that the Wings are in trouble because Metro Detroit is in financial distress is a fallacy not based on the facts. It is simply not true, and to state, as you did that fans making a trek to see the team are a 'very small minority' again is not based on truth. I would love to see your statistical evidence for such a false statement, it comes from your personal feelings and nothing else. I get to nationwide in Columbus every year for a Wings game because it is so close, it is almost like a Wings home game. Even now, with the team slipping into mediocrity watch the Wings on the road and see how many winged wheel jerseys there are in the crowd. The Wings fan base is rabid and loyal and the Wings are healthy and not going anywhere ever.

  The owner is very civic minded and aware of his responsibilities as well, if I can fault Mike Ilitch at all it is because of his excessive loyalty to his players/front office long after their sell by date has expired. He is and will continue to be loyal to the city of Detroit and the state of Michigan. End of story. End of discussion. The Wings will never move.

[Haliax]

1 hour ago, yave1964 said:

Detroit will always be able to maintain the team. The fan base comes from all over the state, in fact from all over this country and parts of Canada. If areas like Sunrise where many fans show up dressed as empty seats and Phoenix/Flagstaff/Tuscon/Scottsdale or whatever raging metropolis that the Coyotes are rumored to be playing in on any given week can support a team then surely Detroit will. It is silly to think otherwise.

  Is the city a mess? Absolutely, but this is a HOCKEY forum, not a political one,.

@Haliax I live an hour north of Columbus and get to the Joe a time or two a year, as well as making the six hour drive to Grand Rapids at least once a year to watch the Griffins play live. And when I am at a game, I make a point of conversing with fans I am sitting near, you would be amazed at how many people come from a lot further than I to watch a game. To say that the Wings are in trouble because Metro Detroit is in financial distress is a fallacy not based on the facts. It is simply not true, and to state, as you did that fans making a trek to see the team are a 'very small minority' again is not based on truth. I would love to see your statistical evidence for such a false statement, it comes from your personal feelings and nothing else. I get to nationwide in Columbus every year for a Wings game because it is so close, it is almost like a Wings home game. Even now, with the team slipping into mediocrity watch the Wings on the road and see how many winged wheel jerseys there are in the crowd. The Wings fan base is rabid and loyal and the Wings are healthy and not going anywhere ever.

  The owner is very civic minded and aware of his responsibilities as well, if I can fault Mike Ilitch at all it is because of his excessive loyalty to his players/front office long after their sell by date has expired. He is and will continue to be loyal to the city of Detroit and the state of Michigan. End of story. End of discussion. The Wings will never move.

What are you talking about? I'm arguing the exact opposite of what you seem to be accusing me of. Metro Detroit is not in trouble, the city proper is. Metro Detroit will always be the main source of fans at a Wings game, and it's population has remained steady for a decade. I'm saying that the team is fine.

 

Honestly, read through the whole thread carefully and come back to me.

[yave1964]

5 minutes ago, Haliax said:

What are you talking about? I'm arguing the exact opposite of what you seem to be accusing me of. Metro Detroit is not in trouble, the city proper is. Metro Detroit will always be the main source of fans at a Wings game, and it's population has remained steady for a decade. I'm saying that the team is fine.

 

Honestly, read through the whole thread and come back to me.

In your case I was not arguing with your point, only that many fans come from outside of Detroit, many more than you give credit to. Your comment that the fans from outside of Metro Detroit are in a small minority was the only quibble that I had with what you wrote. The Wings are supported by more of a diverse fan base than nearly anyone else around, at least in the USA. Our fan base comes from all over. I disagreed that we are a small minority among the fan base.

[WordsOfWisdom]

9 minutes ago, yave1964 said:

In your case I was not arguing with your point, only that many fans come from outside of Detroit, many more than you give credit to. Your comment that the fans from outside of Metro Detroit are in a small minority was the only quibble that I had with what you wrote. The Wings are supported by more of a diverse fan base than nearly anyone else around, at least in the USA. Our fan base comes from all over. I disagreed that we are a small minority among the fan base.

 

It's also a well known fact in southern Ontario that once you reach London, the Leafs fan base ends and the Red Wings fan base begins (because Toronto is now farther away than Detroit). South western Ontario is very much Red Wings country. Whether fans want to deal with the hassle of border crossing or not is a different story however, and a weak Canadian dollar doesn't help either.

 

[Haliax]

@yave1964

 

You're right, they do represent a larger portion than I realized. Still a minority, but not really a small one.

 

An interesting article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/red-wings-target-canadian-fans-in-southern-ontario-1.1873302

 

Says that 10% of season ticket holders are Canadian, and that is 3 years ago. I think last I read the Wings have 14000 season ticket holders, but I can't find that number again. So that's 1400 fans already. Given that, I could see the total that come from outside the metro Detroit area being close to 5000, which is a full 25% of the building.

[WordsOfWisdom]

19 hours ago, WingNut722 said:

If a couple idiots with a video camera go looking for the worst to be found in the City, they might also do themselves a favor and go looking for the best of it too, instead of perpetuating their ignorance.  They may find that not all of it is drive-through-the-red-lights territory.

 

That's why I wanted to know if things were really that bad or if they were just cherry picking the very worst spots. 

 

I've been to Detroit a few times in my life and it always looked "rough" to me, but I admittedly haven't seen much of it.  

 

[Haliax]

8 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

It's also a well known fact in southern Ontario that once you reach London, the Leafs fan base ends and the Red Wings fan base begins (because Toronto is now farther away than Detroit). South western Ontario is very much Red Wings country. Whether fans want to deal with the hassle of border crossing or not is a different story however, and a weak Canadian dollar doesn't help either.

 

Anecdotally, I'd say that line is closer to Windsor than London. Lived in London for 4 years and found it still to be mostly Leaf fans. Grew up about an hour east of Windsor and it is about an even split there. But once you're actually in Windsor it is almost all Wings.

[SpikeDDS]

Red Wings fandom runs deep. Like baseball, your first hockey love can run deeper than that of a spouse. The fan base is both broad and solid at its core.

 

I give Mr. Illitch lots of credit, because he was investing in the city of Detroit LONG before it was cool and trendy to do so. He, basically, created the trending area by the stadiums starting with the renewal of the Fox Theater downtown, and then adding Comerica and Ford Field. Now he's continuing that investment with the poorly named stadium with a pizza theme.

 

As far as viability, the suburbs will continue to be the main draw for fans. Unlike other cities like Atlanta, the 'burbs are not very far away, distance-wise. With no traffic, you're looking at 30-45 minutes at most from most suburbs.

 

To be honest with you--and not trying to be too political, but it has to be said--if there has been any suburban flight from the 'burbs, it is more likely due to Michigan once again imposing the estate tax. Many of the affluent have been leaving AT LEAST PARTIALLY to avoid the deaths tax. So they move to Florida and live there a majority of the year, but maintain a home in the Detroit area and split time, still allowing them to go to games to get their fix. My parents have a few friends who have done just that. They don't see them as often as they used to, but they still come around. Michigan is still home, just not on their tax forms.

 

If the auto industry were to take another major hit like in the recession, you MIGHT have a concern, but that is true of every franchise if their city's main economic engine takes a hit. But the population shrinkage of Detroit proper is not so much the worry, as attendance has been driven mainly by the suburbs for decades despite the continued population drop in the city. The economy has much more to do with it than the population of the city of Detroit does.

[jammer2]

On 9/26/2016 at 8:04 PM, WordsOfWisdom said:

If curious if/how the Detroit Red Wings are profitable given the problems being experienced by the city of Detroit.

 

This doesn't look like a city that can support an NHL team any longer:

 

 

 

 

I've always known Detroit was a dangerous city. Whenever I'm travelling into the US, the car never stops in Detroit. Quite frankly, it never stops in Michigan either. To see videos like this is almost beyond belief. Are these people cherry picking their facts or is this for real? 

 

Um, you are doubting a cities loyalty and devotion to their beloved Wings?  You realize it's nicknamed "Hockeytown" right? The season ticket base is as strong as ever, the new arena which opens next year is spectacular.

 

 I agree with Yave, this stuff is cherry picking BIG TIME. Sure, their are areas of Detroit you should not walk around, as it is with any big city in the States. The premise of this thread is just silly....sorry. By your reasoning, Chicago might as well let the Black Hawks leave for Quebec, cause that cities murder rate and drug problems are the worst in the nation. Yet, the Hawks are healthy as hell.

[WordsOfWisdom]

11 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

 

Um, you are doubting a cities loyalty and devotion to their beloved Wings?  You realize it's nicknamed "Hockeytown" right? The season ticket base is as strong as ever, the new arena which opens next year is spectacular.

 

 I agree with Yave, this stuff is cherry picking BIG TIME. Sure, their are areas of Detroit you should not walk around, as it is with any big city in the States. The premise of this thread is just silly....sorry. By your reasoning, Chicago might as well let the Black Hawks leave for Quebec, cause that cities murder rate and drug problems are the worst in the nation. Yet, the Hawks are healthy as hell.

 

I was looking at the economic state of Detroit and the massive population decline since the collapse of Ford, GM, and Chrystler. 

 

I wasn't doubting the interest of the fans in Detroit. I simply wonder how many Red Wings fans have been forced to move out of Detroit to find jobs, and how that impacts attendance.

 

[jammer2]

15 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I was looking at the economic state of Detroit and the massive population decline since the collapse of Ford, GM, and Chrystler. 

 

I wasn't doubting the interest of the fans in Detroit. I simply wonder how many Red Wings fans have been forced to move out of Detroit to find jobs, and how that impacts attendance.

 

 

 As of last season, the Wings were tied with the Flyers at a net worth of 600 million, good for 6th and 7th place respectively. Pretty healthy franchise. I would say maybe 10-15% of the Wings crowd comes from Canada, but for the most part, it's Detroit natives.

 

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

12 hours ago, jammer2 said:

 

 As of last season, the Wings were tied with the Flyers at a net worth of 600 million, good for 6th and 7th place respectively. Pretty healthy franchise. I would say maybe 10-15% of the Wings crowd comes from Canada, but for the most part, it's Detroit natives.

 

 

 

I'll take a guess at the top 5:

 

1. Toronto
2. New York (Rangers)
3. .....  now I'm stumped!  

I'm tempted to say Montreal, but I remember them being almost bankrupt several years ago when they changed ownership. Maybe Boston or Chicago? Although Chicago was in dire straits a decade ago too...  

[jammer2]

9 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

 

I'll take a guess at the top 5:

 

1. Toronto
2. New York (Rangers)
3. .....  now I'm stumped!  

I'm tempted to say Montreal, but I remember them being almost bankrupt several years ago when they changed ownership. Maybe Boston or Chicago? Although Chicago was in dire straits a decade ago too...  

 

NYR are first with a net worth of 1.2 billion, followed by the Habs and then the Leafs...then Chicago, Boston, Vancouver, Philly and Detroit

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs-forbes-most-valuable-franchises-new-york-rangers-montreal-canadiens/

[WordsOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, jammer2 said:

 

NYR are first with a net worth of 1.2 billion, followed by the Habs and then the Leafs...then Chicago, Boston, Vancouver, Philly and Detroit

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs-forbes-most-valuable-franchises-new-york-rangers-montreal-canadiens/

 

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?    

 

The Rangers figure must be including MSG into the value, in which case it's not a fair comparison at all. If you look at the Rangers alone (without the world's most popular venue) they can't possibly come anywhere close to the Leafs.

 

Also, no way on earth is Montreal more valuable than Toronto. They weren't even close. When Montreal went up for sale years ago, nobody wanted to buy them. It looked for a time like the NHL was going to have to relocate the team. Seriously. Nobody wanted them. Something about being in Quebec absolutely kills the value of a franchise. 

 

The other teams you mentioned make sense but the top 3 would always be: 1. Toronto, 2. New York, 3. Montreal. 

 

[jammer2]

 

3 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?    

 

The Rangers figure must be including MSG into the value, in which case it's not a fair comparison at all. If you look at the Rangers alone (without the world's most popular venue) they can't possibly come anywhere close to the Leafs.

 

Also, no way on earth is Montreal more valuable than Toronto. They weren't even close. When Montreal went up for sale years ago, nobody wanted to buy them. It looked for a time like the NHL was going to have to relocate the team. Seriously. Nobody wanted them. Something about being in Quebec absolutely kills the value of a franchise. 

 

The other teams you mentioned make sense but the top 3 would always be: 1. Toronto, 2. New York, 3. Montreal. 

 

 

 I remember Montreal selling a few years back. The totals are real close for Toronto and Montreal, I had trouble believing Toronto was not worth substantially more than the Habs, but Forbes is pretty accurate. The new owners must have turned that team around....helps when the fans of that province think Hockey is a religion...lol.

[WordsOfWisdom]

3 hours ago, jammer2 said:

 

 

 I remember Montreal selling a few years back. The totals are real close for Toronto and Montreal, I had trouble believing Toronto was not worth substantially more than the Habs, but Forbes is pretty accurate. The new owners must have turned that team around....helps when the fans of that province think Hockey is a religion...lol.

 

True. Hockey is life in Montreal.  I'm just suspicious of the Forbes numbers. They will probably say that the Coyotes are worth 500 mil too, but a bankrupt franchise (when they were bankrupt) is worth 0.

 

I think what they're doing is taking the value of the arena that the team plays in and adding in the team payroll to determine its value.

 

Consider Leafs vs Rangers:

 

The Leafs have more fans than the Rangers do... by about a 10:1 margin. Leafs fans pay more for tickets. The TV package and sports coverage of the Leafs is 10x better than anything the Rangers have. There is no comparison between the two, and no possible way the Rangers could be worth more money as a franchise unless what you're really buying is MSG and the TV network for the Yankees (that also happens to broadcast Rangers games for example). Otherwise, if the Leafs were worth $1 billion, I'd say the Rangers would be lucky to be worth $500 mil. Or maybe that's just me pulling numbers out of my buttocks.

 

But I digress...