GratefulFlyers

The season was fun to watch but the appraisal I'm really interested in is where Jones/Briere say it fits in their rebuild timeline. Are the Flyers closer now to becoming a Cup contender or did this season convince them to trade TK and begin a more thorough rebuild?

They're never going "tank" we know that, either legitimately or the way the Pens did it (twice); that's just not in their DNA. But the "accelerated rebuild" didn't get them very far this year. Tortorella got everything possible out of them, which made for exciting Flyers' games. I'm not sure it advanced the team much toward the goal of becoming a Cup contender.

Remembering where the Flyers were before Jones/Briere/Tortorella took over I congratulate them all for turning it around. Exceeding expectations this year was the icing on the cake. But now it's turned around and a repeat of this year, with Tortorella driving a roster of decent players to "overachieve" is probably not good enough.

To end on a positive note: something we haven't seen from a Flyers' roster in ages...a few guys actually developed their games on the fly and did so convincingly. Not just Shaw's guys. Foerster's got a complete game already; if he improves his skating he'll be a monster.

Some good came out of this season I only wish it hadn't left me wondering more instead of less about the overall direction of the team.

25 minutes ago, radoran said:

Stop reading tea leaves and look at the broader picture.

"reading tea leaves" is picking apart shifts or maybe speculating about the "soul of the team" or some such twaddle. I'm sure avoided it in this thread. And I understand now why we're not connecting: we're looking from different altitudes. You look from 40K feet and conclude,

54 minutes ago, radoran said:

The Rangers had an off night. The Flyers put it all together.

and that's unquestionably true. Apparently that explains it for you. Fair enough. I can't disagree with that or anything else in your post.

It's just that (to me) after what happened in Montreal (and the preceding weeks) the Flyers' performance at MSG was so out of the blue there's no shrugging it off with "eh, no great shakes sometimes ACBA." I'm not looking for some deep meaning but there's more to it than "shithappens."  

The timing of the performance and the performance itself are both in their own WTF? category. As an ending to Flyers' losing streaks that one was the most unexpected and by far the most confounding (hence: "whack jobs"). To put it in perspective we don't need tea leaves but we do - I do - need more than ACBA.

11 hours ago, Howie58 said:

I hope the O and B put up a good fight.

Me too. That's all just a good fight - an intelligent fight. If Ersson is good again maybe they relax and play their game. Who knows...?

6 hours ago, radoran said:

You previous point was not knowing whether or if they would play the same way again.

 

That is ACBAOAGN.

I see. So it's basically a crap shoot. I accept that if we're talking about where the Flyers are now. But earlier in the season they played consistently good, fast hockey - goaltending was solid - and it wasn't a crap shoot at all.

Certainly ACBA is "the bottom line" it's just not very helpful.

3 hours ago, radoran said:

You took a long ways to get back to what I said in the first place.

Hardly that. You said ACBAOAGN explains the result. I said it doesn't.

"Anyone can beat anyone..." is obviously true but it sheds no light on what happened. It's like saying, "there were a lot of Flyers' fans at MSG last night." That's undoubtedly true (there always are) but it's irrelevant or incidental to the outcome.

I offered a partial explanation for the result, namely how well Ersson played. But why he and the Flyers suddenly played so well, that's what I find interesting don't you? The parity among NHL teams can't help us with that. The team is so unpredictable now I called them "whack jobs" and imho it's a fitting description.

Some games this year ACBA probably is the best explanation. In Dallas, in Winnipeg, in Sunrise ... but after going winless in 8, to get some perspective on whipping the legitimate Cup-favorite Rangers 4-1 at MSG (who were trying to secure the #1 seed) I need more than "anyone can beat anyone."

3 hours ago, radoran said:

It's honestly that any given night a professional hockey team can beat another professional hockey team.

This is true but imho it only applies to last night's game in the most general sense. Parity has grown steadily since the salary cap but what we saw last night had little to do with parity.

The game wasn't a one-off; it was potentially (and expected to be) the Flyers' 9th consecutive loss. Instead they go into MSG and play the kind of hockey that had them sitting 3rd in the Metro for months.

The biggest on-ice factor that allowed the Flyers to beat the Rangers last night was Ersson playing so well. When the Flyers get the early big save(s) they can play their game. When they don't they (naturally) go into a shell and since their talent is not very deep on either side of the puck the game is basically over for them.

We've seen losing streaks before but the Flyers most recent one has been remarkable. For it to end against the best team in the NHL (%-wise) with a complete 180... in attitude, confidence, execution, in every aspect of the game ... that wasn't about "anyone can beat anyone" that was ... frankly I don't know what that was...and I have no idea if we'll see it again tomorrow.

what a whackjob team....

I'd love to believe in the Flyers, in Jones/Briere and Tortorella but how can I? What kind of team spends weeks sabotaging their PO hopes then goes into MSG and beats maybe the best team in the NHL? Beats them convincingly too. This team makes no sense to me.

It's like a switch was flipped back to "ON" and last night they started playing professional hockey again. whackjobs...

With vs without Hart the numbers are pretty staggering… I don’t know if anyone should’ve foreseen this level of suckage. A handful games the Flyers gave some good teams a real battle but the W/L record, Ersson’s game etc. all went South in a hurry after Hart left. 
 

Tonight at MSG, Ersson starting again… 12-2 sounds about right. Either that or the Rangers rest some guys, the Flyers play halfway decent and lose 5-2 instead. But honestly who the hell knows what to expect!

btw that .875 is a gigantic reason for the collapse - and it is on the goalies. Hart's departure marks the turning point where Ersson was 17-3 I think with a .930 and afterwards he's 9-13. I'm guessing at his W/L record but it should be close.

The Flyers had a huge strength with Hart/Ersson. The Flyers' game - the transition game, where they did 90% of their damage to the opposition - keyed off good goaltending. When that became a liability it all snowballed downhill. The quick outs disappeared, led to fewer goals off the rush, plus now the opposition gets to play half the rink instead of starting behind their own net.

Bad goaltending - Hart leaving - doesn't explain it but it's a huge part of what we're seeing...except for the Montreal game. God only knows what explains that.

29 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@GratefulFlyers

amazing what an .875 save percentage, injuries and clown-show histrionics can do.

 

The business with Couturier was/is really puzzling to me.  

Not sure what the desired outcome was, but alienating the only top 6 centerman on the team couldn't have been near the top of the list.

 

For weeks now Ersson has not been very good but we all know Save% and GAA are team numbers. I'm not exonerating him or Fedotov, not at all. I still think (hope) Ersson can be a reliable NHL starter but he's obviously not one now.

"clown-show histrionics" - you're referring to benching Couturier? So soon after naming him captain was absurd, made Tortorella look stupid I agree. OTOH did anyone think Couturier was earning even 4th line minutes? I can't get too worked up about it. I'm sure his feelings were hurt but "alienated" good god I hope not.

This is an interesting thread but it presupposes the Flyers are a regular NHL team with regular problems. I'm not sure they are; their problems seem deeper to me than who's on the roster and who's the HC. Maybe I'm overreacting to the blowouts, maybe I'm finally catching on that the Senior Advisors' stink is still all over this club. All I know is a team that rolls over like that has serious issues. They're playing even worse than they did in Giroux's final season. I thought for sure that was rock bottom but it wasn't.

So it's hard for me to imagine regular, normal changes doing much good. I wish I knew what would.

16 minutes ago, Samifan said:

but I was expecting more especially after the first 20 minutes of his Flyer career.

LOL!

Flyers' fans don't mess around you can't cut it in the first 20 minutes Get Lost!

18 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Do I believe the Flyers weren't talented enough to keep the pace up all year long? Who did? Did you seriously think they could continue playing the way they did for 82 games plus playoffs? 

I did but only bc I knew they weren’t relying on talent they were doing it “by committee” as they say. The committee was broken up just a bit at the TD, then the injuries but lord I still believed they’d beat Chi, Columbus. And if they lost I certainly didn’t expect a freaking blowout!

You make a lot of sense re: Tortorella’s approach but I still can’t believe “exhaustion” explains this total collapse. 

That stadium is quite nice though….well it was when it opened anyway I haven’t been there in a long time.
 

I agree tanking sucks…sucks the life out of everyone. But trading for the overall 3, 4 or 5th pick is a tough ask (forget the overall 1st and 2nd) so if @flyercanuck is right and teams absolutely must have those top prospects to win the Cup how do we get them? 
 

I think he’s wrong but I’m not exactly brimming with confidence that Jones and Briere can pull off what they said they want. Let’s face it the odds are slim the Flyers win the Cup in the next 5 years. That so many other teams share the same lousy odds is no comfort. 
 

But building a Cup champ by tanking is at least a 5 year project. So as you can tell I don’t know what I want lol!

Thanks. But baseball is way too sleepy. Sleepy to play (90%) and sleepy to watch. I couldn’t possibly read about it lol!

Still I know you’re right. Sure it can get worse. I don’t really want them to BITFU but I’m beginning to wonder…maybe it is the only honest rebuild, the only shot at building a champ. I hope not bc KJ and DB ain’t interested…

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

This season is a prime example....he squeezes everything out of the team until the playoffs are in sight, then everyones so exhausted from playing "playoff hockey" for 70 games, they're done.

It’s hard to imagine you really believe this. You’re saying the collapse was inevitable, that Tortorella drained them of all their energy and now they’re simply too weak and exhausted to play responsible hockey, not even against Chicago or Columbus (who had 10 AHL guys on the ice Sat night). What’s more he did it deliberately bc according to you Tortorella’s too stupid to realize what he’s doing. That really sound plausible to you? He’s that bad of a coach?

****** I ask you to consider this:

We know the Flyers lack talent, high-end “star” talent and finished talent, i.e. journeymen types at their peak. Wouldn’t any good HC implement a system that demands rigorous 2-way games from all his players? Backchecking, active sticks and bodies on D…if his team has good footspeed he’ll want quick transitions. Etc. 
 

Isn’t that basically how the Flyers played this year? And didn’t it work even better than expected? Yet from your POV whatever the man touches turnstoshit. You know I respect your opinion but I don’t know where to go with this one. 
 

edit: I wanted to acknowledge your description of Tortorella’s personality and his approach rings true from years’ past, which is why I was when the Flyers hired him. I don’t believe it’s an accurate portrayal today. Maybe he is the wrong HC for the Flyers but not bc of “drama” since there hasn’t been any. And I may be wrong but I think his My Way or the Hwy stance is a thing of the past.

On 4/7/2024 at 9:30 AM, mojo1917 said:

I don't feel bad about this season at all.

Columbus got to me in a big way. I'm ready to join the BITFU crowd.

Seeing the Flyers go limp after a season of fighting and winning so many battles...that they couldn't summon the strength to fight for a PO spot... I don't know anymore...maybe Blow It Up is the right call.

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

The proof is in the Flyers half a f***ing century WITHOUT a cup!

I know... Soon the Flyers won't even have their names on the Cup ... not sure exactly when but the Cup is almost full and the '70s winners are next...

I share a lot of your anger, negativity etc. about the Flyers' past but let's forget the past. What's happening now? I think they are trying something different now. Yes there's elements of rinse/repeat, certain trades and non-trades, but these must be balanced with management's publicly-stated goal of building a Cup champion - a first for the Flyers.

You can say "just words" but words matter. They create expectations and they're new - alien even - to this fan base. This is a huge change for the organization. No they didn't mail a letter asking for patience but they said as much in every presser since Briere took over.

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Stinking up the rink for ? years? What do you think they've been doing for decades?

Not stinking up the rink the way I meant. We know the Flyers' PO record but at least they have a PO record. Is it possible your negativity is blinding you a bit? You certainly can differentiate btw the bottom feeders and the Flyers. Like your evaluation of Tortorella. Every... single... reference... you make to him is negative. Man alive nobody is that wrong!

5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

I've listed multiple times how almost every single cup winner over the last couple of decades has a 1st or 2nd overall, or both, or multiple...we currently have none. The direction the team is going tells me we won't be getting any.

They can trade for them can't they? Never heard of a GM trading the overall 1st or 2nd but 3, 4 and 5 could be pried loose. Those picks would come dear; maybe it takes Konecny to land one. But Briere is no dummy; he's shown balls (Michkov), patience and creativity (Gauthier->Drysdale) in his rookie year. A deal like that is a long-shot to be sure but no more than stinking up the rink for ?-years hoping for top 5 picks.

10 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

He's also due a big raise after next year.

Big raise? Nah. A 20% bump puts him at $6.6mil. That seems right to me. Term, I hope he ends his career in Philly.

11 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

He'll turn 29 in the 1st year (of what, 7 or 8 year?) and his game will begin its decline shortly after.

"decline shortly after" I don't know about that. Has TK hit his ceiling yet? 5 years from now he'll be 32. Marchand is 35, has 66 pts this year (w/out Bergeron) and he's still a gigantic PITA to play against. Marchand didn't start putting up 30-goal seasons until he was 27. TK turned 27 last month. Give TK a Bergeron and he'll have 85+ seasons too.

It's all about the contract.

O*****T*****O*****H

Trading Konecny is really starting over. It's a drastic step but maybe it's their best bet. Last night broke my fan spirit. Starting over can't look worse than this. 

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

You'd think, after several decades of this nonsense, it would be time to tear it all down and start fresh. 

 

But maybe THIS time it'll work. 

 

We all know it won't.

but the point is it's not like other years. it's not "this again."

Sure you can interpret every trade and non-trade as service to the Gospel According to Holmgren but I just can't believe you don't see the difference. Here's the most obvious one: the current management has stated explicitly...time and time again "We're not mortgaging the future for a PO appearance" and "We are trying to build a team that can win the Cup, multiple Cups."

Never - not once in 40+ years of following the Flyers has anyone in management said these things. Ever. Of course you're entitled to think they'll never get there the way they're going. But their intention is clear and deserves some respect. Not blind loyalty or rose-colored glasses. Just a fair shake. Jones and Briere have been on the job a year I'm thrilled their goal is to build a champion. Now let's see if they can do it - is that too much to ask?

5 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

So yeah seeing them struggle down the stretch I sure hope doesn't make them say "yeah we need to give that guy his 4.5 mill for the next 5 years" now.

gotta admit this worries me too. I like Walker but they can't sign more 30-year old D-men. I want the D to resemble the forwards - 80% young guys and a couple veterans. TK is one and I guess Couturier is the other. Atkinson has to go...somewhere. The D has Seeler and Ristolainen already that's enough older guys. Hopefully Briere can unload Ristolainen this summer.

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

I want a rebuild, not a "well, we're sort of rebuilding but trying to make the playoffs"  which is what the Flyers are doing. 

They're only doing this if you start your clock in Jan. before Hart left. The way you characterize it it's like they set out in Sept to make the POs. But you know that's not true.

In mid-January it was clear the Flyers would make the POs. All they had to do was go .500 the rest of the way. But still Briere refused to make a PO run the priority at the TD. He traded away nothing of value besides a 4R pick IIRC.

So they find themselves the 3 seed at the TD what should they have done purposely miss the POs? Is that realistic? I understand you would've done things differently from the beginning but let's keep the record straight: they're trying to make the POs now because they have no choice. And it looks like they screwed it up anyway...

9 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

We have to ask the question: Do they want to rebuild just enough to attract fans to buy tickets?  Or do they want to rebuild to win a Cup?  Looks to me like it was the former, not the latter.

well they’re saying they’re going for Cups you kinda have to either believe them or not. Before everyone chimes in with “yeah but …” I don’t disagree they’ve made moves that are easy to knock. I’d only say give it a couple years … like they’ve been saying it will take. 

haha that's a good one OC!

weren't the Flyers' odds of making the POs something like 75% at one point - and not too long ago (it seems)? Now it's gotta be way down I'd be surprised if they're even at 20% after this shitshow tonight.