WingNut722

@Old School Hockey

I see.  Understood.  Agree with you 100%.  DDK is first priority.

@yave1964

I suppose you're eight (and not just about Tootoo ).  It's a benefit in disguise though...the less he gets hit, the healthier his back stays, so I won't knock it.  

Is it hockey season yet?

@Old School Hockey

I'm not worried about DDK at all.  He'll be resigned.  There just negotiating the terms now, but he'll get he wants.  Considering Quincey got a pay raise, DeKeyser can just about name his own price and be approved.  If they let him go, Holland will have that contract extension crammed you-know-where and be run out of town.

@yave1964

It's a sign of respect.  Lidstrom never had that happen to him either.  Players would skate in for a hit, but never a hard one, and only as part of the game.  Nick would usually dodge it anyway.  On the other hand, players never get too close to Datsyuk when he's skating it in, do they?

@yave1964 @jammer2

I think it's better than 50/50.  I vote 75% he comes back.  I'm sure he's been seeing doctor's and getting treatment for his back all summer, but hockey is a tough sport so the proof is in the pudding.  While Holland is loyal to all his players, I think that's one of the hallmarks of his leadership.  It's not just about money or hardware.  Ask any of the Red Wings team, staff, or management...they all feel like they're part of a family, which is important in this business..hell, ANY business.  Granted, he may take it too far in certain cases, but at the end of the day, you'll never be able to say that he sold out.

As far as Alfie's salary, I don't think he'll have a problem with it.  Lidstrom took a pay cut the last couple years in his career, and he played every game of the season.  

@yave1964

In a more bizarre imagination, I wonder if Mike Illitch is getting involved in this little tiff of Babcock versus Holland.  I wonder if the gauntlet has yet been thrown down -- "If he stays, I go!"  For the benefit if the Detroit Red Wings organization...who would you pick?

 Re:Arena....If the city of Detroit really wants to make a comeback bid....well, it takes money to make money as the old but true saying goes. They badly need to revitalize the cities core, and this project could be a huge move in the right direction. I'm hearing about open air markets (veggies...not crack...LOL), that sounds promising also.

Agreed.  You need to invest in order to receive.  I'm not informed enough to weigh in on cuts to public services, etc., but the investment in the arena is a step forward to get some business in there to revitalize at least one portion of the city.  Bars, restaurants, hotels, shops...anything will generate more tax revenue than abandoned houses.  

There has been a lot of talk about options on how to use the now-abandoned and open space within the city limits.  There is even talk about going back to farms.  That's right...FARMS!  The City of Detroit could be rewinding back 200 years without that bothersome natural disaster!

@sarsippius

Detroit indeed is in desperate times.  It's real tough over there.  The city limits are so widespread that the limited resources can't control them all.  Whole sections, whole neighborhoods are now in the dark because the city can't afford to keep the streetlights on at night.  Not a whole lot of security for the very few families who still maintain a residence there, but then these neighborhoods are only about 3-5% occupied.  The City hasn't decided to buy out these folks' houses, but then these folks may not want to move.  

@sarsippius 

I saw a few design drawings in a recent Detroit paper.  The arena will be fantastic, and is expected to set a new standard in arena architecture.  Although the the entire arena will be one giant complex, offices, training facilities, concessions, and the like will be housed in separate "buildings" which will be connected to the main playing venue by enclosed, glass-covered streetscapes, complete with trees.  The actual playing surface will be several feet below grade, which will  give the arena a lower profile, so it doesn't look like  a monstrosity in amongst the two- and four-story buildings already there.  

@yave1964  @jammer2

I understand that only about half of the development costs are going directly to the taxpayers.  The rest is coming from Illitch Holdings and the Michigan/Detroit economic development authorities.  This will be a huge step to help revitalize the area.  Detroit is truly undergoing a full-scale renaissance.  With some entire neighborhoods being bulldozed and cleared, the old joke of "Operation Etch-A-Sketch" is actually a reality.  All the rules have gone out the window.  I truly hope it works though.  The rest of the country is watching Detroit to see what happens.  If it works, Detroit could be one of the most important cities in the country, as it was back in the 50s.  The Illitches have always been a Detroit-based family and will always remain loyal, and they're not afraid to spend their net-worth of $3.6 Billion to help the city regain it's former glory.  Not bad for a few folks selling $5 Hot 'N' Ready's    
 

  Holland has done nothing to replace Lidstrom, not that you ever really replace a player like him, but he has added nothing in going on three years to the defense. Nothing.

 

  His signing of free agents have been wretched. Guys like Tootoo, Samuelsson, Cleary, Weiss, ect.... have proven he no longer can sign the right players.

 

  He swung and missed on every single qualified free agent blue liner this year. Every one. Then somehow he turned to Quincey. And even gave him a raise.

 

I wouldn't judge his free agent eye too harshly.  He made pitches to every hot defensemen this year which were equal or better than the offers those players eventually accepted elsewhere.  He made offers to both Suter and Parise as well (offhand I can't remember how those offers stacked up) but they still selected Minnesota.  The speculation tends to indicate that players are selecting teams based on more than just the quality of hockey.  They're looking to be close to family, their old hometowns, former teammates (NHL, college, otherwise)...all these intangibles.  It's one thing to try to replace Lidstrom and Rafalski, but in order to supersede those intangibles, Holland may very well have to significantly overpay, which is something he's too sensible to do.  Detroit used to be "THE" place to play hockey, and in those days, you could tell your wife/kids/mom/dad/dog/teammates/goldfish: "Yeah I'll be a thousand miles away, but I'll be playing for the Red Wings!"  

Those days are no more...

@Commander Clueless

It's pretty apparent that Cleary's raise was to make up for the paycut he took last year to remain with the team.  He's a favorite of Mike Babcock and I'm sure Babs put in several good words for him.  In an article in the Detroit Free Press this morning, Holland heaped praise and optimism on Cleary but did say that Cleary would have to earn his spot ion the lineup.  Holland is known for his loyalty and this signing is no different.  Kudos to him for sticking to his principles.  Based on Hollands comments, it seems that everybody knows where Cleary stands within the organization.  The favor has been repayed.  Nobody owes anybody anything anymore.

@yave1964  @J0e Th0rnton  @jammer2  

To add further fuel to this bonfire...Ken Holland just re-signed Dan Cleary to a one-year contract. No details yet as to the terms, but it seems as if he's keeping his word to ol' number 11, I mean number 71, I mean.... 

This is a total disaster.  I can't imagine how much effort and negotiation has gone to securing the mediocre services of a broken down winger.  A few years ago, I would have been in favor of this deal.  Cleary was a grinder.  His numbers weren't always impressive but he always pushed the limits, gave 110%, was particularly capable in board battles for the puck and provided grit and leadership in the locker room.  This looks to me like Ken Holland is only keeping his promise from last season, allowing Cleary to come back one more year, and likely reimbursing him for the salary reduction.  With any luck though, Holland demanded a two-way contract and made it crystal clear that he has a standing reservation on the bus to Grand Rapids if Cleary doesn't come through big time.

@jammer2

Sproul can absolutely be in Holland's back pocket, especially if the injury bug hits, but I think there are a number of capable defensemen with several years of NHL experience which we should try to get a hold of before we bring on a new rookie.  

@yave1964

Signing those types of players would be wise.  They can't really get any worse than depending on Kindl and Quincey.  Neither of them should be in Detroit.  Kindl has been around for several years now and has yet to offer any kind of solid, dependable, or even noticeable performance.  There's no reason to hang onto him.  Quincey is just a joke.

In general though, if we can't improve on defense, then we must improve on the offense.  The object has and always will be to score more points than the other team.  If we let in 5 per game, we need to be scoring six.   Kindl and Quincy produced a total of only 6 goals and were a combined -9 for the season.  

@Old School Hockey  @yave1964 @jammer2

I do recall Helene St. James mentioning that fact in one of her articles.  Seems Detroit is no longer the gold standard as a hockey franchise...it appears Pittsburgh is now.  It's one thing if they missed out on the hot defense commodities in Boyle and Ehrhoff, etc.  But I would have rather seen Holland scoop up a younger, fresher defenseman with promise than to re-sign Quincey.  That's just silly.  Having Quincey around again is a gamble, and since no one else signed him, there's no way Holland will be able to trade him.  Nobody wants him.  

This season is going to depend on health...not just Alfie (and by the way, I would offer him the time he needs to make a decision).

Just pretend for a minute that things go right this season.

1) Alfie comes back strong (see what I did there?..."back strong"?  Get it?)

2) Everyone stays healthy

3) Weiss has a good season, like they expected him to last year

4) The kids avoid the sophomore slump 

5) Howard improves to where he should be (note - I'm not asking for stellar goaltending; just where he should be)

If 4 out of 5 of the above items happen (which is very possible, I'm not asking for much), the Red Wings can easily stick themselves firmly in second place in the Atlantic Division.  There is enough talent on that team to make that happen.  Add to that the notion that Franzen actually "plays!" this year (which in my opinion is a much more lofty goal than anything else), then come the trade deadline, there is the opportunity to take a hot defenseman who is looking for hardware....then the price goes down.  

Detroit was the place to be because there was serious possibility of winning a Stanley Cup year after year.  That's not the case anymore.  Yes they're in the playoffs every year, but that doesn't mean anything for players who have to pick up and move their families.  

It's time to hunker down and develop the team you have and *prove* you have a shot, and those trades will be there in February.  

I've been saying it all along...give Weiss a chance.  He did not have a bad season last year.  He had NO season last year, so it's unfair to pass judgement on how good or bad his acquisition was.

@jammer2

Pittsburgh is the team to play for these days.  Loaded with talent and always a competitor, like Detroit in the early 2000's.  Ehrhoff should enjoy his stay there.  He's looking for hardware, and my guess is that Pittsburgh management limited the contract to one year, given the front office and head coaching changes.  There's a lot of variability right now.

@yave1964 @jammer2

Happy UFA Day!

I don't see Legwand coming back without dumping Sheahan back to Grand Rapids, which would leave him despondent and angry, ready to take a deal anywhere to get back onto NHL ice.  Our centers are set...Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Helm, and Sheahan, with Weiss and Glendening in the pocket.  Joaquim Andersson is already trade bait as it is.      

Grabbing Boyle would be ideal as he is looking for a two-year contract, but he has expressed real interest in Toronto or Tampa Bay.  Both would offer him nice deals so there is plenty of competition.  Holland has enough room to throw a few extra dollars at him, maybe some bonus money too if the Wings go deep in the playoffs, etc. 

Niskanen would be great to have, but he'll be the hot commodity this year and can command his own price.  I don't see him landing in Detroit, unless Alfredsson declares early this morning that he definitely will retire, which would open up more cap space for Detroit to woo Niskanen.

As for Iginla...do we really need him?  Talented, yes, but he's an aging winger. He's definitely talented, and a right-handed shot to boot.  I suppose if we added more firepower up front and become a high-scoring team, it would help make up for any holes in the defense.  (Assuming Kyle Quincy is not asked back as well)  

Either Boyle or Ehrhoff and the Wings can consider this summer a success.

@yave1964

Everybody likes to rag on Weiss and I'm not sure why.  "Well he was hurt all year!"  Yeah..?  which means he didn't get the chance to make a name for himself. Groin injuries are the worse.  A slow start, sure, but if he pulled out of that and scored 25 goals nobody would have said anything.  I never passed any judgement on him for that reason alone, so I'll give him another shot.  

I didn't mind Tootoo so much because we needed a gritty, energy player for the fourth line.  It used to be Abdelkader (and to an extent, it still is).  But Abby is more than that and he needs to concentrate on making points.  Tootoo just didn't work out and I suspect there were some off-ice issues between him and Babs that got him benched for life.  

You're right about Thornton.  We'd lose a lot of good young guys trying to snag him...for a center we don't need.  After signing DeKeyser and some other returns, Holland will have about $20MM to play with.  Time to shine!

Not only that!  I just read that the Red Wings have recently called over to San Jose to inquire about Joe Thornton!  Nothing has been decided or even discussed at length, but it looks like the Wings are at least interested enough to pick up the phone and try to pry away the face of that franchise.  I guess it's an interest dividend on Coach MacLellan?

So it looks like nobody on this discussion forum will get their wish with a compliance buyout of Jimmy Howard or John Franzen.  As of this morning, Jordin Tootoo has been put on waivers, the first step in the buyout process.  This will give them another $1.9 million to work with.  Also, Jonas Gustavsson has also been re-hired for another year, putting to bed the question of whether Petr Mrazek is ready for a full time backup job.  

Daniel Alfredsson is still going to be the hot item this summer, as he decides, in Nick Lidstrom fashion, whether or not he'll go for another year.  I hope he does.  That would be great to have him back. 

The bad news is that the Red Wings are also talking again to Mr. Dan Cleary, who is desperately trying to scrape together some kind of smoke-and-mirrors light show to land himself another year on the ice.  In all likelihood, if he wants to stay with the club, he'll probably have to accept a two-way contract.

@yave1964

We will certainly agree to disagree on that point.  Because I love NHL-ers in the Olympics.  But I'll save that discussion for four years from now in Korea!  

@yave1964

I don't recall if you were involved in the political talk about the Olympics and whether NHL-ers should be allowed to participate.  The general consensus around that discussion was that if the NHL prohibits player participation in the Olympics, then you would see a lot of three-year contract signings with the NHL, so that the player can play one season in the KHL and still be able to represent his country.  

The KHL is still a premier league in the international hockey community, so I don't think it would take much for guys to go over there if pushed.  But if the Olympic ban is put in place, the KHL would absolutely continue to rise

@jammer2

Yes but they pay well for the mediocre talent.  That's always been the arrangement.  Those who couldn't make it in the NHL went to the KHL.  Demonstrate proficiency there and you might be able to negotiate a spot playing for the Swedish/Swiss leagues.  

Lidstrom and Stuart were so good at covering up for Howard. They earned Howard his current albatross of a contract!

In today's NHL if you over pay for a goalie he better be the best or at least top 5. Otherwise it's wasted cap space. See Jimmy Howarfd

It's true that today's blueline is not as powerful as it once was (i.e. Quincy and Kindl) and you'll find that a lot of DRW fans, not to mention most of us on this forum are screaming for a veteran defenseman.  It looks like Holland will have a lot of money to spend to this summer, seeing as how a lot of guys will likely retire or let go.  In all reality, I doubt very much that Howard will be moved at all, at least before next season, so now we're back to picking up some skaters.

@WingNut722

Just read today that Cory Emmerton signed in the KHL for next year. He must have felt that he had no future in North America and went for a payday.

Well there goes that idea!

Good to be back by the way.  Work and Life heated up for me lately, but it's starting to settle down.

I suppose it's all academic now, but I would say to let go of Emmerton anyway.  I don't think he brought enough to the table to warrant keeping him around because of his NHL experience.  In that case, I would take the opportunity to bring up another forward from Grand Rapids and start \molding him early.

@yave1964

I like your thoughts, Yave, and the trade proposal is well thought out.  Howard just doesn't have it.  @Old School Hockey hit it right on the nose.  He lets in too many soft goals and his puck control his horrible.  I could allow a few of those soft goals if the forwards could put up a few more goals on the other hand to provide a cushion.  But that just ins't happening anymore.  The Red Wings aren't a "scoring machine" the way they used to be and don't look to become one with the current lineup, the backstop has to be much better.

We're actually heavy on a few young forwards, so look for Joaquim Andersson to be dealt this summer.  He was outpaced by Luke Glendenning and Riley Sheahan this season, but he has too much NHL experience to be stashed away in the minors.  Look for Holland to try and make a few dollars on him.  Cory Emmerton the same, only less so.  Andersson would be much more valuable in trade.

@jammer2 I had to laugh a bit when you mentioned the marketing possibilities of an African American hockey player in Detroit.  Reminded me of those red and blue Obama shirts folks were wearing -- "HOPE".  Perhaps we'll see one reading "KANE."  And speaking of marketing, if this little scenario plays out, don't forget the Miller brothers being on the same team.       

@yave1964

Made it with two games to spare!

I will disagree with you and say that I would prefer to face Boston.  The Wings have a better record against them in the regular season and just plain look better on the ice.  They bring their "A" game a bit more facing the Bruins than they do the Pens.  Besides, I've been to both cities too and Boston is just more fun to hang out in.