fanaticV3.0

This revisionist history makes me want to barf (not you coords, you are not pretending to have expected this all along). He was absolutely a one dimensional player here. Anyone pretending they knew he had this in him all along is full of the stuff I'm about to go evacuate from my system. Additionally, he had 50 points in the regular season. He's having a good PO, and this is probably the best stint in his career, but it's still just a stint at this point. Get off his cock.You can recognize how good he's playing right now without anointing him the best player in the league.

Michal Handzus? Am I the only one seeing that? Is that a typo?

I am very big on personal accountability, but if ever were there a situation to cut somebody some slack it's when a kid is drafted and expected to be a savior (or very important piece) of a terrible organization. I don't understand how a paid professional can expect a kid to come in and just do that. That only happens with very unique and special players. Luckily for him, he's still only 24, so not all is lost. He just played his first full season with his new team and got 58 points. That ain't bad. Ottawa is not a good team right now, but Phoenix is almost always a lost cause. They rarely have anything going for them.

A lot of these guys have one thing in common: $$$$ It seems there is a trend of guys who were signed for too much or for too long and are being let go (or at least talked about it). It shouldn't really be that surprising because some of the deals were thought to be too much when signed, but we're seeing the ramifications now. I'm curious to see if these players recognize they were overpaid and will accept less money (because some of them are definitely legit NHLers). It's also interesting that 2 of the top 3 names being tossed around are currently in the Cup.

No, but that's more of a timing thing than anything. He could turn into a guy who gets you 60-70 points a year, he just hasn't yet. Versatility wise, I think Sharp plays all over, right? I don't see that ever happening with JVR. But production wise, I could see how they might be similar players one day.

Ok. Gotcha. Well those people would be wrong. Turris hasn't even proven he belongs in the NHL yet. He just played his first full NHL season in what his 6th year? About him, I will say though I have to wonder if his development was hindered by playing in Phoenix. I'm a big believer in that the worst thing that can happen to a young player is getting drafted to a bad team and little else around him to help. I think it ruins careers.

aziz was kind enough to spell it out. He's still that, just at a little bit of higher level. Better than he was here, would definitely prefer him over schenn, but I'm not comparing him to Kane or one of the other top-level talents in the league. That's just ridiculous.

I'm not sure what your point is. That my opinion that JVR isn't great is somehow wrong because he's better than Turris, whom other people want? Ok....

Relax Superfan. I didn't tell you you couldn't talk about JVR. Obviously his name is going to come up when talking about that draft and our team's role specifically in that draft (and it's fair game). But I'm not gonna argue over why the thread was created. It was created to talk about what would have happened if we gotten Kane. We already know what did happen with JVR. And my JVR comment was in regards to comparing him to Kane (when somebody called JVR "a fine player" too).

To quote the great Roger Murtaugh, "That's pretty ****** thin." 1. It's a strawman or some other logical fallacy. Where's Superfan when you need him? 2. It's ignoring chemistry between players. 3. It's ignoring JVR's own growth as a player. There's no doubt he's better than he was when he was here and besides #2 I think he had a great deal to do with that.

I would rather have him over L. Schenn too, but the fact that this thread was created to talk about Kane and JVR is now dominating the conversation is just sad. No. Just no.

Because when judging a player - or in this case comparing two - you don't just look at one year. It's like saying John Druce is a great PO performer, but only offering that one fluke season as proof of that. It's stupid to think that's a valid argument. 0 GWGs. There's another literal fact for you.

That's an old Superfan line isn't it? The only thing that can be said about JVR right now is that he's better than he was here. It doesn't make him great or even consistently good. One 60 point season doesn't make you a great player. If he turns out to be a 60 point a year guy, that's pretty good. It's also not "Kane level".

If you don't have at least one Cup you shouldn't even be involved in the discussion. We're not talking about good teams, we're talking about great ones. The closest thing to a dynasty right now is Chicago. Then LA. Boston below that because they've been in two, but they're out if they don't win another one.

You keep him. He isn't ready to be the team's 2nd line center, but Richards is. And since when is having two lines capable of legit two-way play a bad thing? So what if it's not traditional? Offense is overrated. The only player on both Cup teams that had 70 or more points was Kopitar. Richards scored 40 in a down year in a diminished role. Drop him in a 2nd line and the 50 or so points he gets in that role is more than enough, especially with Giroux, Voracek, and Simmonds pulling the weight offensively. Again, I already said he's making too much money and we don't need a center, but if he was bought out I'd certainly consider it. Schenn isn't a center and Couturier isn't a 2nd line one, so that's where Richards comes in if I'm in charge. Adios VLC. At that point I don't care how I get rid of him, I just know that I do it. I'll pull a Milton if I have to. Just shove him in the basement or something.

What I'm doing? I have nothing to do with this. This is all about facts. Career points: Richards - 466 Carter - 460 Career PO points: Richards - 85 Carter - 69 Everything you're saying about Carter is about this year's PO run. Yeah, he's having a better PO, I'm not denying that. But 21 games doesn't make a career and if you actually take the time to look at their careers, Richards is easily the better all-around player. Carter doesn't even have the edge in the area he's supposedly significantly better in. Richards still beats him in that. And there's no debating who the better defensive player in. Oh and by the way, those 22 points you keep bragging about for Carter, not a single one of them is a GWG. Richards takes that category once again, haha!

Yet he's playing less. Weird.

The premise of your argument make little sense. You are lauding Carter's defensive play and down playing Richards' offensive play when Richards has already been at that level defensively (higher actually) for years and their offensive output is pretty close. Carter had 50 points this year and Richards 40. Career wise, Richards is actually a little better. Carter is playing more and Richards less. This isn't exactly an ass-kicker of an argument you've got here. If Carter's offensive numbers were so good they make you doubt you need the better all-around player, I see your point. Then we've got a conversation. Then it comes down to what do you value more? But aside from his current PO production, Carter isn't killing it offensively.

No coach starts a controversy with one of his own players during a Cup run. I would say it's stupid to believe that, but we both know you don't even think it yourself. You're talking out of your ass because you would rather stand your ground on a stupid statement than concede a point to me.

1. I don't think anything the two of them do at night could be considered quiet. 2. How strange is it that the pinnacle of their Flyers career came during the same years as a .500 season and lucky/flukey comeback in the POs? Kind of defines that team imo. Talented, but not all there mentally.

I wouldn't say that. You are right.

Osgood, Fleury, Khabibulin, Ward, JSG. I think the fact that Chicago did it with two goalies says something, even of some of their stats are good.

I'd throw in Cam Ward, Khabibulin, and JSG as well. Chicago also did it with two different goalies. I"m not saying they are all horrible players or that we had anyone better, but you don't need an all-time great in net to win.

Agreed on all points.

I have no problem admitting that. It's a legit point. It's no secret we've had goaltending problems. I also think people like to use it as a crutch. Plenty of teams won with goalies who were nothing special.