Buy out Giroux

[radoran]

3 minutes ago, CoachX said:

16 is not all....just "mostly" all

 

Like "mostly dead"

 

[mojo1917]

There's nothing funny to me about where this team is and how bad they look.

 

I do find a great deal of irony in seeing how all the people love Couturier today.

Doesn't seem that long ago when "he was an acceptable 3rd liner...maybe"

Funny how time along with money changes everything.

 

@radoran

the Nevers, not familiar with it in any form other than this show.   I thought it was entertaining, worth checking out a 2nd episode at least. 

[CoachX]

9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I do find a great deal of irony in seeing how all the people love Couturier today.

Doesn't seem that long ago when "he was an acceptable 3rd liner...maybe"

Funny how time along with money changes everything.

not that long ago, Giroux and Voracek were worth 8 million dollars

[FD19372]

9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I do find a great deal of irony in seeing how all the people love Couturier today.

 A few runs at the Selke will do that.

[FD19372]

1 minute ago, CoachX said:

not that long ago, Giroux and Voracek were worth 8 million dollars

NEVER EVER.

[radoran]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

There's nothing funny to me about where this team is and how bad they look.

 

Gallows humor.

 

 

[tucson83]

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

not that long ago, Giroux and Voracek were worth 8 million dollars

oh god kill me now and i hated those deals from the start because they werent scoring 30 or more goals a year. ovi is worth that money.

Edited April 14, 2021 by tucson83

[mojo1917]

7 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

oh god kill me now and i hated those deals from the start because they werent scoring 30

 

I never liked the Voracek deal. 

G has mostly lived up to it 

https://twitter.com/avappleyard/status/1382002812998012929?s=20

 

https://twitter.com/avappleyard/status/1381996490676125698?s=20

 

 

 

 

 

 

He's been making 8.3 ish.

I can agree that maybe there's been a slight over-payment. 

But it's not by a much and there were multiple season's where it was a bargain.

So I'll push back on that.

this isn't just addressed to you but the universe.

I don't take these large salaries as an afront to all that is good and holy in the universe. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by mojo1917

[OccamsRazor]

8 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

I never liked the Voracek deal. 

 

So let's get rid of him....than will satisfy the angry mob for awhile.

 

And yes Giroux at 7 mill per season would have been a lot better.

 

But that isn't the case.

 

Remove Jake and we can deal with Giroux next year.

 

If Jake is gone and Seattle takes JVR well that is very good start to the rebuild.

 

 

[radoran]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I can agree that maybe there's been a slight over-payment. 

But it's not by a much and there were multiple season's where it was a bargain.

 

Apologies in advance for the book...

 

Was Giroux a "bad contract"? I don't think the regular season numbers bear that out (playoff results are another thing entirely).

 

The basic idea of these sorts of deals is that you start off at a slight overpayment and wind up at the end of the deal as something of a "bargain". It's not entirely turning out that way, but by the numbers:

 

When it was signed, he was one of nine guys making $8M+. He was 5th in ppg at .9, .01 behind Getzlaf and .1 to .19 behind Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin.

 

Year Two it was 11 guys and he was again 5th in ppg behind Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin. That said, he had 22 goals behind Kane (46), Crosby (36), Malkin (27 in 57), and OV (50). All of those guys were making $1.25M to $2.25M more (except Crosby on his pre-CBA contract - his "salary" was $12M).

 

Y3 he dropped to 10th at .71 ppg. Right around Voracek and nearly half a ppg behind the league lead (Crosby 1.19). 14 goals. Four of the guys ahead of him potted 30+ and Stamkos was 9 in 17.

 

Y4 he was a definite bargain 2nd in ppg (1.24, .02 off the leader Malkin). He also potted 34.

 

Y5 he was again 10th in ppg with 1.04. within .05 of the next 4 above him. To tucson's point he was last in goals among the top 10 with 22 (Malkin had 21 in 68).

 

Y6 he dropped to 22nd at .77 ppg. Some of that drop is because of the addition of the Draisaitls, McDavids, Matthews, Kucherovs, etc. to the $8M+ club. But there were 14 legit ppg players in the league. Half of them were making $1M+ what he was (the other half not).

 

This year 21st at .78 ppg.

 

Overall, not a bad contract for performance over time, but not a great return and he's probably overpaid now as opposed to being a "bargain."

 

As I was going through the years, I saw a pretty good comparison for G & V's trajectory in Getzlaf and Perry. With the obvious caveat that G/P already had their names on the Cup.

 

Perry got bought out with two years to go. Anaheim - like Chicago and LA - was paying for past performance and were never able to afford the pieces to make their high-priced power pairs effective again. The only team that was able to walk that line was Pittsburgh and that's in large part because Crosby was on a "$8.7M" contract.

 

Voracek is the more obvious "problem" with his numbers bouncing up and down and his goal total never eclipsing 20 since his signing.

 

And that's what I harped on for years was the lack of firepower in the Flyers' lineup. They essentially gave to team over to a pair of guys who were good for 40-45 goals a year while other teams had individuals scoring at that level.

 

Given that situation, the biggest signing they were able to bring in as a "sniper" was JVR.

 

Those are three Good, often Very Good, players, but simply have not been good enough to compete with the other top players in the league over time.

 

It sucks. And it's not "all his fault". Had they gotten a goal scorer instead of Voracek things may have played out differently.

 

But they didn't and haven't - and here we are.

 

We've gone over my thoughts before about how he was also miscast in this role.

 

And, again, in large part it was a complete psychotic break for me after last night's second straight embarrassment of a performance "in the playoff hunt" after year after year of trying to "make it work."

 

I just can't deal with trying to "make it work" anymore. At this point I just don't see how it can. You've got 20% of the cap tied up in two guys who are putting up ~1.5 ppg and don't score goals in buckets.

 

They put their chips on 28 and 93 and came away with nothing.

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by radoran

[tucson83]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

So let's get rid of him....than will satisfy the angry mob for awhile.

 

And yes Giroux at 7 mill per season would have been a lot better.

 

But that isn't the case.

 

Remove Jake and we can deal with Giroux next year.

 

If Jake is gone and Seattle takes JVR well that is very good start to the rebuild.

 

 

if we do rebuild i dont think it's going to be as bad as alot of teams are going through because we have the assets to get talent without tanking for it which alot of rebuilding teams dont have. that's one thing i do give hextall credit for because if we didnt have that, we probably have to rely on lottery to rebuild.

[OccamsRazor]

35 minutes ago, radoran said:

Had they gotten a goal scorer instead of Voracek things may have played out differently.

 

Well Jake said noone can score goals all the time it's a cliche...

 

[Lindbergh31]

20 hours ago, radoran said:

End the embarrassment.

 

$5.6M hit next season.

$1.33M the year after that.

 

Give the Kraken a 2nd to take Voracek. Retain salary.

 

Do some ****ing thing.

 

End this era of medocrity, failure, and embarrassment.

 

And fire Holmgren. I don't want to see him in the background of a highlight video.

 

Give Bob Clarke a gold watch and a retirement home in Flin Flon.

 

End it.

 

Now.

Totally agree, another option for Giroux would be to eat 50% of the cap hit next year in a trade, maybe trade him to Ottawa.

 

[Cheesesteak]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

Voracek is the more obvious "problem" with his numbers bouncing up and down and his goal total never eclipsing 20 since his signing.

 

WOW, I did not realize that...SO pathetic.    He really is Jake Verysuk  

Edited April 15, 2021 by Cheesesteak
bold

[OccamsRazor]

Flyers preparing to move player with term in the offseason

 

https://phillyhockeynow.com/2021/04/14/philadelphia-flyers-rumors-preparing-for-offseason-considered-alex-goligoski-scott-laughton-contract/

[CoachX]

Meh! Nothing to see here

[OccamsRazor]

16 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Meh! Nothing to see here

 

If they would rather cut bait now instead of trying to trade him later then I'm all for it.

 

But when I look at the roster he isn't priority #1 right now.

 

#1 Find a new home for Jake.

#2 Find a new partner #2 for Ivan.

#3 Find a new home for JVR.

#4 Find a new home for Giroux

 

To me this is the offseason plan to kick off golf season.

 

And we can move these around priority wise some but this is where I start.

 

[radoran]

44 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

If they would rather cut bait now instead of trying to trade him later then I'm all for it.

 

I have no problem seeking a potential trade destination.

 

After watching the team sleep walk through March, lose by five goals or more every 7th game, get humiliated by Buffalo, and then mail it in against the Caps on the way to likely missing the playoffs for the fifth time in the nine years of his captaincy, I'm done with this "leadership" style.

 

This is just embarrassing at this point.

 

That said, I fully expect them to extend him to "retire a Flyer"

 

[OccamsRazor]

13 minutes ago, radoran said:

I have no problem seeking a potential trade destination.

 

I would flip him home to Ottawa for Ridly Greig if the Sens would take him.

 

He could slot in nicely as their 3rd line LW or 2nd maybe if they would like to try him there first.

 

1st Tcachuk

2nd Stutzle

3rd Giroux

4th Paul

 

Do it Fletcher.

[Samifan]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

If they would rather cut bait now instead of trying to trade him later then I'm all for it.

 

But when I look at the roster he isn't priority #1 right now.

 

#1 Find a new home for Jake.

#2 Find a new partner #2 for Ivan.

#3 Find a new home for JVR.

#4 Find a new home for Giroux

 

To me this is the offseason plan to kick off golf season.

 

And we can move these around priority wise some but this is where I start.

 

Accomplishing all 4 may be a tough ask but going by your order if they could get the first 2 done, it would be a huge step forward. 

[GratefulFlyers]

23 hours ago, radoran said:

I just can't deal with trying to "make it work" anymore. At this point I just don't see how it can. You've got 20% of the cap tied up in two guys who are putting up ~1.5 ppg and don't score goals in buckets.

 

They put their chips on 28 and 93 and came away with nothing.

 

tl;dr version= Giroux needs serious help or he needs to go.
 

If your satisfaction with the Flyers depends solely upon one and only metric, i.e. Cup / PO wins... if it’s either Flyers Win The Cup or the Flyers Fail Yet Again then I’d say plan on remaining disappointed for a long time lol. Seriously though to state “we got nothing” out of Giroux, Voracek, JVR...you can apply that same standard to 99% of NHL players....no Cup = FAIL. That’s an awfully narrow scope to assess an NHL team let alone one or three players. I’m not criticizing you it’s as valid a metric as there is in sports: championships. It’s not the only one however, and reading your “book” I get the impression for you it is.

 

I’d never presume to tell anyone how to root for their team. And without a doubt this year has been particularly bad, spectacularly bad (!) for the Flyers. I guess I’m just not acclimated yet to the constant criticism, even as I (mostly) understand where it’s coming from. I know part of why we watch is bc we hope our team will go all the way and snag the “hardest trophy in sports.” But it is the hardest trophy to win for good reasons. When they come up short it doesn’t necessarily mean they failed or that they delivered “nothing.”

 

But I hope Giroux does agree to a trade, that way they can make Voracek captain. Holy shrine I think this place would crash the World Wide Web if that happened. But seriously I do hope Giroux sees the point of moving on if the Flyers’ roster remains basically the same. He and Voracek plus JVR simply don’t deliver enough offense. In spurts yes, as go-to scorers no. Could those three be the nucleus of a Cup-winning team? I think so but it would take a rare set of circumstances where practically everyone incl the coaches has career years. 
 

The only way Giroux should stay is if Fletcher can somehow pry loose a real game-breaker who can lead this team not just (or only) to their first Stanley Cup but to some good old fashioned entertaining hockey in Philly again. One great player along with Hart’s redemption would transform the Flyers overnight. No names to offer now this post is already too long. But I enjoyed reading yours and I think for the most part it’s a fair assessment of Giroux’s tenure.

[radoran]

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

If your satisfaction with the Flyers depends solely upon one and only metric, i.e. Cup / PO wins... if it’s either Flyers Win The Cup or the Flyers Fail Yet Again then I’d say plan on remaining disappointed for a long time lol. Seriously though to state “we got nothing” out of Giroux, Voracek, JVR...you can apply that same standard to 99% of NHL players....no Cup = FAIL.

 

My dude, I've been watching hockey for 40+ years. Save the lectures.

 

My lifelong affinity for Finland started with them coming in FOURTH in 1980. Not a championship. Not even a medal.

 

One playoff round win, missing four going on five times in nine years, is a fail. Laying a dozen eggs during a "push for the playoffs" is a fail. Scoring four goals in 35 playoff games as captain is a fail.

 

If your metric is different bully for you.

 

You'd be wrong but I don't feel the need to go into greater detail on it.

Edited April 16, 2021 by radoran

[GratefulFlyers]

Why don't you give my post another read? You'll find I compliment you, and agree with your general point. I ended with what I hoped sounded like a positive note.

 

Now to respond to your reply...

 

first of all...."my dude?" lol what the hell?

 

next, a lecture? god only knows how you got that but anything's possible. You heard Voracek say "playing 60 minutes is a cliché" and took it to mean everything but "playing 60 minutes is a cliché." Clearly you have a gift for (mis)interpretation.

 

last, you bring up something that bothers me a little about this board, your "you'd be wrong..." There's a whole lot of that around here and maybe you are the champion. There's other contenders but you certainly lead the pack.

 

[this opinion has been brought to you by a GratefulFlyers fan]

 

 

[radoran]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Why don't you give my post another read?

 

Will do. Maybe don't start yours with a TL;DR?

 

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

"my dude?" lol what the hell?

 

Lol channelling my inner John Fetterman on this day they're playing the Pens.

 

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

next, a lecture? god only knows how you got that but anything's possible.

 

Sure. Anything's possible. You went on for a long paragraph talking about how if all one thinks about is a championship it's always a fail.

 

So, yano, TL;DR at that point.

 

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

last, you bring up something that bothers me a little about this board, your "you'd be wrong..." There's a whole lot of that around here and maybe you are the champion.

 

Glad you're not lecturing me.

 

Thanks for that.

 

If you take it in context it was saying if you didn't think the previous statements about what was a "fail" about the current situation was a "fail" you'd be wrong.

 

If you don't think that then you have nothing to worry about.

 

You started off with a TL;DR that completely mischaracterized what I have said.

 

I've outlined extensively on this thread and others how Giroux has been a good value for his contract and that he's been badly miscast by this organization that has served him badly with personnel.

 

Also freely admitted a "psychotic break" after the 1-1-1 against Boston, the loss to Buffalo, and the recreational skating session against Washington.

 

I don't "hate the player" - I'm tired of him as the face of the franchise.

 

Also that his tenure has been an ultimate culmination of the failings of the organization* over the past 20 (at least) years.

 

That's it.

 

I enjoy your posts. I hope you'll stick around and contribute your perspective.

Edited April 16, 2021 by radoran

[GratefulFlyers]

11 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Will do. Maybe don't start yours with a TL;DR?

 

Wait, you thought I was condensing your post? No no I put TL;DR upfront of my post to say "hey reader if you'd rather not bother with 1000 words here's a short version." That's a no-no? Or are we now talking cross-wise thru a crack in the web? Could be...

 

11 hours ago, radoran said:

 

I enjoy your posts. I hope you'll stick around and contribute your perspective.

 

Thanks I like reading yours too. As I said I agree with your overall point about Giroux and Voracek, how the Flyers handled them, promoted them, paid them. I wouldn't want to see Giroux bought out unless it's the beginning of a complete rebuild.