How and Why does this franchise Win all the time?

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

See my car dealership analogy in the post above.  ^     

 

 

Yeah, I understand. And it's a good point (the car dealership thing aside).

 

Plus, if you pro...oh, nevermind. Lol

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

It's like if I have a teenage son and I buy him a Ferrari for his 18th birthday.

 

 

 

[JR Ewing]

To give much weight to the theory which says that the NHL made sure that Las Vegas was good right away, shouldn't most media and fans have seen before the season that they would be good? Shouldn't they have said "Wow, look at the talent they picked up!"

 

Didn't happen. General Managers across the league did a poor job of assessing the talent of their players, paying the Golden Knights not to take their veterans, and then left prime-aged players unprotected. Coming into the Golden Knights first season, every single person who is paid to write and talk about hockey, as well as almost every single person who writes about hockey in their spare time had them pegged as a non-playoff team that would struggle.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by JR Ewing

[Puck_Pun]

5 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

Coming into the Golden Knights first season, every single person who is paid to write and talk about hockey, as well as almost every single person who writes about hockey in their spare time had them pegged as a non-playoff team that would struggle.

 

 

 

 

Ehh, most sports "journalism" is hot garbage at best and is designed to make the local population feel good and smart. Of course the commentators in every city outside Vegas would predict the team would be middling. 

[JR Ewing]

Just now, Puck_Pun said:

 

 

Ehh, most sports "journalism" is hot garbage at best and is designed to make the local population feel good and smart. Of course the commentators in every city outside Vegas would predict the team would be middling. 

 

Nobody even predicted them as being a middling hockey club: they were a consensus pick as the worst team in the league, and some people talked about it being a miracle if they won 20 games in 2018, because there was an inability to assess the talent going to the team in that draft.

 

But, that's ok, because the media and the fans weren't the only ones who didn't figure it out until it was too late. NHL teams did the same thing. The Pens PAID the Golden Knights to take Marc-Andre Fleury off their hands. Columbus gave Vegas 1st and 2nd round picks to make sure they took David Clarkson and William Karlsson in the draft. St Louis protected Ryan Reaves over David Perron. Hell, the Panthers left Marchessault unprotected.

 

That's not a draft ensured to make Vegas was good right away. It's General Managers making bad decisions.

[radoran]

1 hour ago, JR Ewing said:

That's not a draft ensured to make Vegas was good right away. It's General Managers making bad decisions.

 

The way that the "protected" players were chosen was designed to make it so that some "good" players would be available. And there were.

 

Marchessault is a good example. The Panthers protected Jonathan Huberdeau, Aleksander Barkov, Vincent Trocheck, Nick Bjugstad, Aaron Ekblad, Keith Yandle, Alex Petrovic, Mark Pysyk and James Reimer.

 

In retrospect Bjugstad was a bad call, but 20/20 hindsight is always perfect.

 

The desire was to make them competitive not into an immediate powerhouse. Some of the deals made - Karlsson is a good example - were indeed bad decisions.

[Confrontational]

I think you also have to take into consideration how many fans the Knights have across the nation - I say that because they grabbed two of my favorite underused players from the Wild. How I hung in there with the Wild after moving to TX fifteen years ago - who knows - but when Vegas grabbed two of my favorite players - I became a fan and follower. Plus, who doesn't fly out to Vegas a few times a year...?

 

I also have neighbor in TX who was a die hard Hawks fan. Vegas grabbed a guy he liked - and he's now primarily a Knights guy.

 

So, I think that aspect of the expansion really helped them because now almost every fan for every other team could watch the Knights and know a player or two right away...

[WordsOfWisdom]

6 hours ago, radoran said:

So you're saying more fans pay to see a successful hockey team than do a perennially underachieving franchise? That there's more interest when a team is winning than when they're not?

 

You don't say.

 

Now, do Tronno next.

 

Well what you just said doesn't apply to Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Winnipeg, or Ottawa (for the most part). Fans sell out the building at full ticket prices (no comps) to watch all of those franchises through good times and bad times. 

 

4 hours ago, radoran said:

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

4 hours ago, radoran said:

Fans in Colorado have come back as the team has improved. Certainly 10 years (08-09 through 16-17) of three playoff rounds and no playoff round wins isn't a recipe for financial success for many franchises.

 

No but you can't run a profitable sports franchise if fans are only willing to pay if you're a playoff team. The expectation is that fans should be willing to pay to watch the team during good years and during lean years. If things really get bad, bring waffles lol.   

 

I think the league is setting Vegas up for a bigger fall in the future, and it's going to be an epic fall from grace when it happens. The first time Vegas ices a bad team after all of this winning and I think the fans will bail on it immediately. By that's my two cents... in a world with no cents.   

 

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

Didn't happen. General Managers across the league did a poor job of assessing the talent of their players, paying the Golden Knights not to take their veterans, and then left prime-aged players unprotected. Coming into the Golden Knights first season, every single person who is paid to write and talk about hockey, as well as almost every single person who writes about hockey in their spare time had them pegged as a non-playoff team that would struggle.

 

 

That's why I used the "box of scraps" analogy. They got every other team's cast-offs. The players that were left unprotected. The players every other franchise felt they could afford to lose. And they nearly won a Stanley Cup in season one. 

 

Maybe this will be the new way to win a Stanley Cup! 

 

Step 1: Fold your existing franchise (if you have one).

Step 2: Apply for an expansion franchise.

Step 3: Collect an all-star team of young players out of the box.

Step 4: Win a Stanley Cup. 

 

Then just repeat the cycle lol.    

[radoran]

4 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

Well what you just said doesn't apply to Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Winnipeg, or Ottawa (for the most part)

 

Just for the record, Edmonton played to 94% houses. Ottawa was barely 2/3 full. Calgary and Vancouver weren't 100% sold out. https://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2020

 

It's literally the only game in town in most Canadian cities. (No I do not include the CFL).  But it's not just Canada.

 

Chicago hasn't been out of the first round since they won the Cup five years ago. They led the league in attendance per game in 2019-20 at 108.7% of capacity(!)

 

Detroit hasn't been out of the first round since 2013 and they were 7th in average home attendance (96% sold).

 

Eight other American cities played to 100+% capacity.

 

The Flyers were 12th at 94.4% capacity - reflective of how a bad stretch can affect a solid fanbase.

 

That said, the Islanders are on an upswing and were 30th in attendance with 81% fill (due in no small part to the need for an actual arena).

[radoran]

5 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

I think the league is setting Vegas up for a bigger fall in the future, and it's going to be an epic fall from grace when it happens. The first time Vegas ices a bad team after all of this winning and I think the fans will bail on it immediately.

 

You're projecting again

 

I think you're overlooking the influence of the casinos' buying power and the fact that there are so many tourists in Vegas. People can plan to see "their" team play Vegas and I believe the casinos invest pretty heavily in tickets as bonuses for their patrons.

 

People said Nashville would never catch on. They haven't even won a Cup and are playing to 100+% capacity.

 

Canadian provincialism is bon and all but can leave you with syrup smeared glasses.

 

Perhaps we shall see if your projection holds weight, but it's going to be a number of years before it is really put to the test.

 

[JR Ewing]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Just for the record, Edmonton played to 94% houses. Ottawa was barely 2/3 full. Calgary and Vancouver weren't 100% sold out. https://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2020

 

 

The Oilers sold out for almost seven straight seasons (a 549 game streak) during a time of historic incompetence from a management group which was openly hostile towards fans, with attendance generally around the 98-99% level.

 

The big dip in attendance happened when Western Canada Select oil prices went from around $75/barrel down to around $25-$30/barrel (not including a period of time last year when prices dipped into the negative range), and the Alberta economy was hammered. The availability of office space in the downtown core from being almost impossible to find to a record of almost 30%. About a quarter of workers in the Alberta oil patch lost their jobs.

 

To the extent that the Oilers are the only game in town, the oil and gas sector is the primary employer in town. When the money from one dries up, it impacts the next.

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by JR Ewing

[tucson83]

4 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

That's why I used the "box of scraps" analogy. They got every other team's cast-offs. The players that were left unprotected. The players every other franchise felt they could afford to lose. And they nearly won a Stanley Cup in season one. 

 

Maybe this will be the new way to win a Stanley Cup! 

 

Step 1: Fold your existing franchise (if you have one).

Step 2: Apply for an expansion franchise.

Step 3: Collect an all-star team of young players out of the box.

Step 4: Win a Stanley Cup. 

 

Then just repeat the cycle lol.    

like get rid of your high paying players and rebuild with your depth with in the prime players at 26 on reasonable contracts aka moneyball strategy.

[radoran]

2 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

To the extent that the Oilers are the only game in town, the oil and gas sector is the primary employer in town. When the money from one dries up, it impacts the next.

 

Right and the relative value Canadian dollar and such. I think they also have a new building they're trying to maximize.

 

But that's also my point about Vegas. There's an ongoing economy there, a constant stream of people "from away". And casinos always want something they can give away to even medium rollers.

 

Vegas has some insulation to the sort of oil-related variaitons you're describing.

[radoran]

5 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

That's why I used the "box of scraps" analogy. They got every other team's cast-offs. The players that were left unprotected.

 

Do you think Florida "didn't want" to keep Marchessault? They chose Bjugstad instead probably for him being a size center with potential (five years ago).

 

Columbus was protecting other players and opening up the Clarkson cap space when they gave up Karlsson.

 

The Flyers wanted to keep PEB so they signed him to a higher value contract to try to dissuade Vegas from taking him.

 

These weren't players teams "didn't want" they were players they couldn't keep protected.

 

Some teams are going to lose players to Seattle they "wanted" but couldn't protect.

 

Not a perfect comparison but when some teams gave players NMCs they weren't thinking about having to protect them in an expansion draft that wasn't even conceived of at the time.

 

They way protection works lends itself to leaving second line guys available. You put a team of top six NHL players together and that's not generally going to be too shabby.

 

Put them in front of a Cup winning goalie with something to prove and you're in even better shape.

Edited April 22, 2021 by radoran

[WordsOfWisdom]

20 minutes ago, radoran said:

Do you think Florida "didn't want" to keep Marchessault?

 

 

     |

    /\

 

(I finally found that emoji in the list!)

 

22 minutes ago, radoran said:

They way protection works lends itself to leaving second line guys available. You put a team of top six NHL players together and that's not generally going to be too shabby.

 

Put them in front of a Cup winning goalie with something to prove and you're in even better shape.

 

Apparently. Vegas has been the best team in the NHL since its inception. They built their team faster than Toronto has with its rebuild.   

[WordsOfWisdom]

5 hours ago, radoran said:

Canadian provincialism is bon and all but can leave you with syrup smeared glasses.

 

Perhaps we shall see if your projection holds weight, but it's going to be a number of years before it is really put to the test.

 

 

True.  Speaking of years..... I'm creating some new "time capsule" like threads for forum users to enjoy a century from now.  

(I'm assuming this forum will still exist 100 years from now, being run by HF101's offspring.)

 

 

[JR Ewing]

42 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Right and the relative value Canadian dollar and such. I think they also have a new building they're trying to maximize.

 

But that's also my point about Vegas. There's an ongoing economy there, a constant stream of people "from away". And casinos always want something they can give away to even medium rollers.

 

Vegas has some insulation to the sort of oil-related variaitons you're describing.

 

Yes. All absolutely true, and I hope the franchise is nothing but a financial success. I think they have a shot at it with the constant stream of tourists, etc.

 

[radoran]

58 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

I finally found that emoji in the list!)

 

It's a mainstay in my "recently used"

 

[lynxrattle]

56 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

It's a mainstay in my "recently used"

 

I found this one:

 

Everybody loves twin-horned helmets, even way back in the birth of civilization

 

As a Wild fan I hate this competitive from the start stuff. The Wild has been struggling to get anywhere for 20 years and now they just hand over all the goodies to the Kraken and Goodies from the get-go. I can get the reasoning behind but it still stings.

[radoran]

8 hours ago, lynxrattle said:

As a Wild fan I hate this competitive from the start stuff. The Wild has been struggling to get anywhere for 20 years and now they just hand over all the goodies to the Kraken and Goodies from the get-go. I can get the reasoning behind but it still stings.

 

And I don't blame you at all.

 

I believe it is in large part due to your fans' experience that they went in this direction.