Confirmed: Ellis traded to Flyers for Myers / Patrick

[Howie58]

28 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@OccamsRazor @radoran @Howie58

 

Busts is a too harsh a term. 

 

I found Howie's assessment of the defense harsh and not entirely accurate.

I am outvoted.....sorry!

[flyercanuck]

4 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Sorry if I'm echoing everyone (or no one) but I skipped reading most of the thread.

 

I don't like this trade at all. Ryan Ellis is tough and experienced but he's 30 years old and he has what ... 6 more years at $6.25 mil per. That alone should've been a hard pass. Not the $ the 6 years. Ellis, from what I've seen of him, can play the game, no question he's a good D-man. But to gain a 30-year old and give up a 24-year old...considering where the Flyers are now in the timeline toward winning the Cup...this was a stupid move.

 

Giving up Myers should've been a hard no. So the guy had a crappy year name a Flyer who didn't. Joel Farrabee, period. Myers is 24, big and strong, skates very well and he can shoot the puck. The rest can be taught and drilled.

 

The last place Fletcher should've looked for tradable assets was the young D men. Who's next Sanheim with Frost and who-know-who-else PLUS a 1R for Seth Jones?

 

It just kills me trading away a 24-year old D-man with so much promise. It's just like the Flyers too, trade away a young guy who had a bad season for a proven veteran who is soon to be out of gas.

 

 

 

 I didn't like giving up on Myers either, especially as you mentioned when pretty well everyone else on the team looked terrible as well. The year before he was starting to look like our 2nd best defenceman.

 

 Time will tell whether Ellis' contract doesn't end well. I'd bet it doesn't. But Philly needed some veteran help back there. He wasn't my first choice, mainly because I thought we needed help defensively, in front of our own net. Which Ellis really doesn't bring.

[mojo1917]

Just now, flyercanuck said:

. He wasn't my first choice, mainly because I thought we needed help defensively, in front of our own net. Which Ellis really doesn't bring.

Myers wasn't doing that either. 

And that's a guy that should have been busting peoples faces in the crease. 

I get what you're saying though. 

I think realistically that tough guy is going to have to come  from the "other move".

I think the team is better today than it was Thursday.

 

 

[GratefulFlyers]

Exactly - that's the other part of this. The Flyers needed help defending Hart, clearing the crease - putting a frkkn BODY on the guy in the paint once in awhile. That isn't Ellis' game at all and if you're giving up a 24-year old D-man with all the natural ability Myers has you should've filled your real need.

 

Of course Ellis will help the Flyers...he passes the puck out of danger very well - that always impresses me about him - he doesn't get rattled. But as it stands right now Carter is still basically unprotected back there.

[flyercanuck]

6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Myers wasn't doing that either. 

And that's a guy that should have been busting peoples faces in the crease. 

I get what you're saying though. 

I think realistically that tough guy is going to have to come  from the "other move".

I think the team is better today than it was Thursday.

 

 

 

Oh I know....nobody was last year. 

And yes it is better today. That 6 years left on the term isn't too comforting though. 

[CoachX]

8 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Exactly - that's the other part of this. The Flyers needed help defending Hart, clearing the crease - putting a frkkn BODY on the guy in the paint once in awhile. That isn't Ellis' game at all and if you're giving up a 24-year old D-man with all the natural ability Myers has you should've filled your real need.

 

Of course Ellis will help the Flyers...he passes the puck out of danger very well - that always impresses me about him - he doesn't get rattled. But as it stands right now Carter is still basically unprotected back there.

I get you, but we are making our evaluations from a position of a one sided lens. We look at Myers and determine what we think he's capable of,often dismissing what he does do. The flyers, specifically the coaches, are in a better position to determine what Myers can, and can not do. Maybe they already know, regardless of what his skill set is, what he what kind of player he will be.

 

We already know what Ellis is. He's proven it

[OccamsRazor]

43 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

He wasn't my first choice, mainly because I thought we needed help defensively, in front of our own net. Which Ellis really doesn't bring.

 

I don't think this is true at all.

 

He helps retrieve the puck (can't get it out if you don't have it) and gets it up out the zone to start the transition game so you are not hemmed in your own end trying to defend so much.

 

Still one of the top passers in the game today.

 

Sure he isn't a stay at home defender I think they may still get one of those types but Ellis helps get the puck out the D zone so they can spend more time in the offensive zone, this can not be over looked.

 

So we can agree to disagree if you want.

 

Myers really struggled vs Montreal and was completely exposed vs the Isles last year.

 

He may come around but Myers may never be what Ellis already is.

 

I love the move.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by OccamsRazor
#boubonup

[GratefulFlyers]

  

9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Myers wasn't doing that either. 

And that's a guy that should have been busting peoples faces in the crease. 

I get what you're saying though. 

I think realistically that tough guy is going to have to come  from the "other move".

I think the team is better today than it was Thursday.

 

 

 

Well he was doing it the year before and when he played a handful of games his first year with the Flyers. His strength and positioning and even more his speed were why everyone was raving about him. There were "Pronger-like" analogies tossed around and sure, way ahead of schedule, but you could see it was there, the aggressiveness and the "Fk You" attitude.

 

But I agree too - the Flyers are better today. Only time will tell how much they rue giving up Myers.

[OccamsRazor]

Just one of the many opnions:

 

Scott Burside

 

A number of sources we spoke to during the season felt the Flyers never really replaced the presence of Matt Niskanen, who retired before the start of this season, either in terms of minutes played or leadership on and off the ice. Ellis will do all those things and maybe more for a Flyers team that is desperate to step into a contending role. When Roman Josi was named captain in Nashville, it came down to Josi or Ellis for that honor. Nashville can now turn its attention to locking up Mattias Ekholm long-term and newly acquired Myers.

 

Myers is 24 and can play a 4-5-6 role for the Preds, but they’ll miss Ellis in all kinds of ways. “I like Ellis in Philly, but I don’t like the hole he leaves when you’re trying to coach the Predators,” one veteran scout said. “Hard to replace a 23-minute player.”

 

Another source familiar with the Flyers’ organization agreed. “Great move for Flyers,” the source said. “Myers has skill but can’t think the game.”

 

The futures part of this deal is most fascinating. There’s some symmetry to Nolan Patrick, the No. 2 pick in 2017, ending up in Vegas having played three seasons for Golden Knights GM Kelly McCrimmon with the WHL’s Brandon Wheat King. Still, Patrick’s myriad health issues makes this feel very much like a project.

 

As for Glass, the Predators continue to look for that depth down the middle that has been an organizational Achilles heel for years. Maybe Glass will get a chance to prove he’s a legitimate No. 1 or 2 center, which he didn’t seem to get and/or take advantage of in Vegas. The scout we spoke to felt that the Glass for Patrick part of this deal was a wash. “Neither guy has been able to get on track,” the scout said

[radoran]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I don't like this trade at all. Ryan Ellis is tough and experienced but he's 30 years old and he has what ... 6 more years at $6.25 mil per. That alone should've been a hard pass. Not the $ the 6 years. Ellis, from what I've seen of him, can play the game, no question he's a good D-man. But to gain a 30-year old and give up a 24-year old...considering where the Flyers are now in the timeline toward winning the Cup...this was a stupid move.

 

I can see where you are coming from, but I think this is a different monster than, say, giving up a boatload of firsts for a 34 year old Chris Pronger or renting Danny Markov for Justin Williams.

 

They lost an undrafted asset who hasn't blown anyone's doors off and a disgruntled top pick with injury issues for an established guy in (for a defenceman) his prime. Will this be a "good deal" at Y5&6? Remains to be seen but, again, I like the chances of Ellis still being at least a second pair/2PP guy at that point.

 

And, to your point, this trade by itself isn't going to change where the Flyers are. It just answers a big need in a top pair veteran defenceman with playoff history.

 

I still think they need a legit, impact 2C to put Hayes on the third where he likely belongs, an upgrade in the Braun department, and some goal scoring punch in the top six. That might come internally, but I don't think ol' Fletch is in any way done remodeling this roster.

 

If Hart is the goaltender he can be then things look a lot different for the organization*'s prospects.

[ruxpin]

3 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Dear FC:

 

I agree--my thinking is at the 30,000 foot level.  We've been hearing/discussing for the last half decade that our defense would be a cornerstone.  Yeah. One would have thought we'd have a first-class D at this juncture. Instead, we have to rebuild.  

 

As I've said here before, I agree with Ron Wilson's view that contracts over 5 years are a noose and should be avoided.  All GMs need to think what they are doing in that sphere.  

 

Peace,

H

 

I can refuse to pay inflated prices for food, but unless everyone else also refuses, I'm going to starve while everyone else eats.

 

It's great, in theory, saying "no contacts over 5 years," but unless all GMs stop doing it, the few that refrain are never signing a premium free agent.

 

It's not like Philadelphia is a paradise destination. You have to pay market and sometimes more.

 

Now, if the owners want to limit to 5 year contracts in the next CBA, I'm on board.  

 

And, I mean  we have 5 defensive draft picks playing in the NHL on our squad.  6 with Myers here.  That's pretty good drafting, actually.  But you cannot and should not load completely up with that.   The problem is that you have to supplement with a solid veteran by doing exactly what Fletcher just did.

 

For much of his tenure, Hextall didn't have the cap luxury of doing what Fletcher just did.  The only caveat is that the JVR signing really should have been a defenseman.  Fletcher made good moves with Nisko and Braun that first summer to do exactly that.  It went well and as planned until Nisko suddenly left.

 

I credit Hextall a lot for putting us in a good position. We'll never know if he was ready to pivot to the next phase, but I suspect he was married to the wrong coach and also fell too much in love with his prospect pool that the transition to trading assets to round out the roster might not have actually happened.

[Digityman]

@GratefulFlyers

There's that Timonen-like piece to think about too.  You have 'smooth skating, puck moving Cam York' that will have a real shot at being on the team this year (I can't imagine he won't be) and to some extent Zamula and the rest of the young dmen.   To have Ellis as a mentor will provide a ton of unseen value for the next 6 years.  While losing Myers sucked, there's a reason why assets were stock-piled.  York will make you forget Myers.

 

6 minutes ago, radoran said:

I still think they need a legit, impact 2C to put Hayes on the third where he likely belongs, an upgrade in the Braun department, and some goal scoring punch in the top six. That might come internally, but I don't think ol' Fletch is in any way done remodeling this roster.

I'm with you on this except Frost is going to get a shot at 3C this year I think.  Then if (and I think when) he proves he deserves the 2C, Hayes drops back to 3C.   At this point I'd like to see top 6 scoring for sure.  And I'm hoping the kids come back stronger....Konecny, Hart, Frost, Lindblom....all need to have rebound years.

 

[flyercanuck]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I don't think this is true at all.

 

He helps retrieve the puck (can't get it out if you don't have it) and gets it up out the zone to start the transition game so you are not hemmed in your own end trying to defend so much.

 

Still one of the top passers in the game today.

 

Sure he isn't a stay at home defender I think they may still get one of those types but Ellis helps get the puck out the D zone so they can spend more time in the offensive zone, this can not be over looked.

 

So we can agree to disagree if you want.

 

Myers really struggled vs Montreal and was completely exposed vs the Isles last year.

 

He may come around but Myers may never be what Ellis already is.

 

I love the move.

 

 

 

Ellis can help get the puck out of our end....no question.  Which is why I said we needed help "in front of our net".  Which he really isn't.

 

I'm not against the move. We needed something.

[radoran]

15 minutes ago, Digityman said:

You have 'smooth skating, puck moving Cam York' that will have a real shot at being on the team this year (I can't imagine he won't be)

 

Where's he going to play? Might be better for all concerned to at least start in the A...

  

9 minutes ago, Digityman said:

I'm with you on this except Frost is going to get a shot at 3C this year I think.  Then if (and I think when) he proves he deserves the 2C, Hayes drops back to 3C. 

 

Well, that's what I mean - it could come internally. They need Konecny to rebound to just being what he was. Farabee to continue to develop...

 

If Frost comes in and blows the doors off, great! Same with York. But in this scenario I mean "blows the doors off" not "looks like he belongs." "Looks like he belongs" too often IMO gets you into a "Patrick" type situation...

 

I just think they could use some more "oomph" from the 2C role than a borderline 20/50 guy. And I think Hayes stays that borderline 20/50 guy as a 3C, which is a bonus.

 

I am most excited about the possibility of moving Voracek, not only because he's become a poster boy for this Decadus Horribilus, but also because they can put some younger talent in there and not "need" to put him in position to get "his" points.

 

Alongside the opportunity/possibility of another strong trade.

 

ol' Fletch knows that this wasn't the "one of the top rosters in the league" that the ticketing office was throwing out there at the end of the season. And he can't be done.

[radoran]

1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

Which is why I said we needed help "in front of our net".  Which he really isn't.

 

If you keep the puck away from the front of the net..

 

I think you've got to have everyone working harder on that aspect of the defensive zone. There isn't one guy who's going to do it.

[flyercanuck]

Just now, radoran said:

 

If you keep the puck away from the front of the net..

 

I think you've got to have everyone working harder on that aspect of the defensive zone. There isn't one guy who's going to do it.

 

 The whole team better buy into playing better defence or we'll be having this discussion again next year.

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Ellis can help get the puck out of our end....no question.  Which is why I said we needed help "in front of our net".  Which he really isn't.

 

I'm not against the move. We needed something.

 

Well as rad said he will help keep it from in front of the net.

 

But if you're saying a porch clearer he is not but he is feisty and won't back down.

 

You put that is Travis Samheim's game and Travis is a Norris candidate every year.

 

And to get this right it will require everyone on board to be doing their part.

 

But I want a some me guy out there and not a tell me guy. Ellis is that type.

 

He learned from Weber and Josi and it is his turn to teach.

[OccamsRazor]

I see folks mention his injury history but man very hard to blame him for this cheap shot.

 

 

 

Then he got hurt in game 5 of the finals and came back and played with ligament damage which required offseason surgery which took 6 months (normal for that type of injury) and other than that for his size has been very durable.

 

I'm not going to hold any of that against him in this brutal sport.

[Howie58]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

It's great, in theory, saying "no contacts over 5 years," but unless all GMs stop doing it, the few that refrain are never signing a premium free agent.

Yes.  Agreed 100%.  And if we had the revenue base of football or the other majors, our system might be OK.  But we don't.  What's more, we don't allow the kind of walkaway clauses seen in the other leagues, like football.  If we have a few more flat cap years, the players might need to think about that.  As it stands, I think the age distribution of the league is going to skew increasingly young.  The big, long-term contracts will be a privilege of the few. 

[Podein25]

 

32 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Ellis can help get the puck out of our end....no question.  Which is why I said we needed help "in front of our net".  Which he really isn't.

 

 

29 minutes ago, radoran said:

If you keep the puck away from the front of the net..

 

23 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Well as rad said he will help keep it from in front of the net.

 

 

What if he helps put the puck in their net? It can't be in their net and in front of ours at the same time, right? Man, you go away for a few months and this place loses its ability to think. You're welcome. 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Podein25

[radoran]

1 minute ago, Podein25 said:

Man, you go away for a few months and this place loses its ability to think. You're welcome. 

 

"loses"?

 

[Podein25]

Of course, my point hinges on the question of whether Ellis helps put the puck in their net. Which is an open question I guess. But if he's paired with Provy, I don't see how he doesn't.

[FD19372]

11 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

 

 

 

What if he helps put the puck in their net? It can't be in their net and in front of ours at the same time, right? Man, you go away for a few months and this place loses its ability to think. You're welcome. 

 

 

Damn, you're DEEP.

[ruxpin]

13 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

 

 

 

What if he helps put the puck in their net? It can't be in their net and in front of ours at the same time, right? Man, you go away for a few months and this place loses its ability to think. You're welcome. 

 

 

I think; therefore, I'm absent.

[Podein25]

2 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Damn, you're DEEP.

 

Deep in the sheep