Flyers traded .... but Captain G is still here

[ruxpin]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

I remember he was on Sugar Crisps box with the Kings when he scored the record breaking goal.

 

I never ate Wheaties so can't comment on this

 

yeah, I only did rarely.   

Extremely rarely.  And usually at camp or something when it was one of those little one-serving boxes.

 

But the telling thing about the Sugar Crisps box is that was 1) once he was in the States and 2) he had to accomplish something huge.    Not taking anything away from Joe Namath, Joe Montana, Michael Jordan or the others I mentioned.  They all did something special, too.   But they were on whether they'd just had a record-breaking something or if they'd opened a can of Campbell's soup for lunch.  They were just names and faces constantly in front of the American consumer.   

 

For all Gretzky did, if a non-hockey fan picked up that Sugar Crisp box, Wayne may as well have been a toucan or something. 

[CoachX]

By the time Gretz got to LA he had already won 4 cups and was making a mockery of NHL records. It's not like he got to LA and everyone was like, hey who is this guy. His trade was one of , if not the, biggest news story in sports.

 

It's also not like he got to LA and everyone had to research to find out who he was. 

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

By the time Gretz got to LA he had already won 4 cups and was making a mockery of NHL records. It's not like he got to LA and everyone was like, hey who is this guy. His trade was one of , if not the, biggest news story in sports.

 

It's also not like he got to LA and everyone had to research to find out who he was. 

 

This ^ Gretzky was already the greatest...that's what he was called before he went to LA. Now if people want to say he wasn't a Hollywood celebrity, sure...who cares. Hockey fans and real sport fans knew who Gretzky was. But he certainly became more famous after. 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

It's also not like he got to LA and everyone had to research to find out who he was.

 

3 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Hockey fans and real sport fans knew who Gretzky was. But he certainly became more famous after. 

 

Right, he got to LA and people knew who he was.  No argument.

Hockey fans and "real" sports fans knew (depending upon one's definition of "real" sports fans.  Is that fans of sports with standings not put together by a winning-percentage deficient inebriated twit?)

 

But the fact remains that a large swath of the US could have picked Michael Jordan out of a crowd.  Magic Johnson.  Pete Rose, etc. etc. etc.   I bet in the middle of Iowa or Kansas or wherever, Gretzky could have chowed down on a hot dog in the middle of a Circle K and no one would have thought he was anyone but Uncle BillyJoe John BobJeff's cousin from Minnesota.  The NHL markets to towns with a team in the US.  Until they got a new contract, the NHL was barely talked about on the nation's flagship sports station (going to vomit that I just referred to ESPN that way).  The NHL simply does a lousy job of trading off on its talent.

 

But hey, they can put a Tampax or BIC or whatever logo on a fricken helmet, so way to go marketing department!

[elmatus]

One of the saddest parts of these discussions is the odd combo of undervaluing and overvaluing in the case of Giroux. 
 

If G had produced at the level he was projected to during his draft year, he would be considered a decent mid-six player, like so many others. Instead, he overproduced considerably compared to so many like him and emerged to become far better at putting up pts than anyone really anticipated. 
 

Then as others have pointed out, he suddenly went from expected to be a pretty good mid six guy to expected to carry a franchise. So suddenly he becomes a failure if he doesn’t learn how to lead a team into contender status, despite the fact no one would have ever considered that of him prior to his emergence as a pt producer at this level. 
 

so now instead of being happy we got a guy who considerably overproduced, we’re complaining he wasn’t Patrick Kane or Steven Stamkos or *spit* Crosby. All of whom, it should be said, had other equally elite players surrounding them during their cup years (which Giroux has never had)
 

Should he have been thrust with such lofty expectations so early? Nope. But we should nonetheless be able to recognize how lucky and unlikely it was that we’ve had a guy rise up and become quite a bit better than anyone really thought he would. And by quite a bit better, i mean a guy who is very likely the most offensively talented Flyer we’ve had on the team since Lindros. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by elmatus

[CoachX]

I look at Giroux a little differently. Despite what he was projected to be, he performed how he performed. That elevated him to a higher level. No offense to anyone, but making excuses for the guy based on "pressure" or leadership role doesn't cut it for me. I've heard it said that young players feel the pressure. Well when he was young, he kicked ass. Now that he's mature, all of a sudden the pressure has gotten to him? I just don't buy that.

 

I think a player should play to his highest level of capability, at all times. If you can't do that becasue of mental or emotional issues, you should take steps to address the issue. If you can't do it becasue of physical decline, then you should expect less money, less playing time and possible relocation.

 

I still thin Giroux is a highly skilled player. I don't think he's in serious decline or mentally and emotionally whacky. I think he is part of a group that is adversely affected becasue of pissy attitudes and team dysfunction.

 

Well that has been addressed. If he wants to be part of the solution, and remain a Flyer, it's time to step up

[elmatus]

41 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I think a player should play to his highest level of capability, at all times.

 

I agree with this 100%. My question is: who are we to say that he hasn't been doing this essentially the whole time? What if what we've gotten from him *is* his highest level of capability?

 

Now, granted, things happen in life and people are human. There are always things that will happen over the course of a lengthy NHL career that make for dips in production and results. That has happened for Giroux, just as it happened for every other NHL player in history.

 

But overall, Giroux has been remarkably consistent at doing what he's always done well. He's always been a playmaker, able to find teammates and put up pts (mostly assists), and he's essentially always done that. Some years he was a bit above average in that dept compared to others in the league; other years he was leaps above the vast majority. He was never bad in terms of using his ability and skill to do what he does best.

 

He had seasons over 90pts. There are two ways to look at that. We can say "yep, that's what i expect from Giroux, and he better do something like that every year now". Or we can say "well that's clearly not going to happen every time, and i'm super happy we got a player who could achieve that feat at all, cause very few ever do".

 

The first statement is largely divorced from reality imo. The second one is far more accurate.

 

From where I'm standing, two things have prevented Giroux from somehow going from overachiever to cup-winning, team-leading overachiever":

 

1) he was probably *never* good enough to be that kind of franchise pillar, at least not by himself. The fact the brass and fanbase came to see him in that light is understandable given his production, but production isn't everything.

2) he also *never* had any other truly elite players around him to help him out.

 

When Giroux was in his prime, the only other guy on the roster who had moments where he could keep up was Jakub Voracek. Now, I don't know about you, but Voracek is definitely not the kind of player I consider to be elite in the NHL. When Voracek is the second best player on your club, you better hope the no.1 guy is generational-level good, cause you're probably going to need it.

 

That's not on Giroux. The team never managed to draft and develop players who could truly help make this into a contender. 

 

Giving him some proper comparables here: He was drafted expected to be TJ Oshie, and instead lifted to play like he was Nicklas Backstrom and at times even Patrick Kane. 

 

And yet, where is Backstrom without Ovechkin? Kane without Toews?

 

Could he have been better still? Sure. Give him one of those other guys, and let's see what happens. But instead of judging him on what he hasn't done, and quite likely simply cannot do, we should really judge him on what he has and can. He has been the most productive Flyer in two decades, and he has been absolutely consistent in that. The fact he was gifted a bunch of other expectations at an early point in his career is really not his fault. The fact he was never given the same tools as others who were given similar expectations is likewise not his fault.

Edited July 30, 2021 by elmatus

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I think the team was so poorly constructed around Giroux that he just stopped caring. Holmgren continually made change after change after change and that was a disruption. Then, Hextall comes in and tears things down and once again, Giroux is left with a shell of a club and is expected to carry things on. Claude was essentially asked to make chicken salad out of chicken **** when the Flyers had mediocre goaltending, a porous defense and little forward depth.

 

Now I'm not thing to say Giroux isn't too blame because he stopped caring right around the time of Hakstol's third season as coach. Claude was beat up and the strain of carrying the team on his back began to take its toll. At that time, he should have stepped down as captain. Come to think of it, he should have never taken the captaincy and that should have gone to one of Timonen or Simmonds. One of the things that Flyers teams of the past had in captains were heart and soul and emotional leaders. Giroux wasn't that. He was a leader on the ice, but he wasn't vocal or passionate like some of the past Flyers captains.  I think wearing the C was a heavy burden for him and he should have spoken up. 

 

The Flyers did waste his best years though and that has to be remembered. And they're doing the and to Couturier as well. I know I'm in the minority here, but if they start out slow again this year or if they're in the tank by December, I think they need a full tear down and Giroux and Couturier might have to go,  especially because they're pending UFA and they've started that before resigning with the club, they want to see what happens first. 

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I think the team was so poorly constructed around Giroux that he just stopped caring.

Yep, I agree. I think this. He stopped caring

 

I think he is still a major asset, and if he got that fire back, could be very effective. He still needs the right pieces around him. I don't know if the Flyers have that guy. We will see.

[OccamsRazor]

19 minutes ago, CoachX said:

He stopped caring

 

I don't think he stopped caring i just think he was out of ideas of what to do to motivate this bunch and get it back to playing sound hockey.

 

It happens. He is human too and well sometimes we just don't f**king know what to do...sure i know it isn't acceptable and folks do not want to hear that and that is too much reality for some to hear. That yes we don't f**king know.

 

It takes a man to say that. God know i love my father with all my heart and God rest his soul that was one of his biggest weaknesses. He didn't know how to look me or someone else in their eyes and utter these words...."I don't know!" It felt like since he was the leader the man of the house he had to always have an answer for anything that popped up or if there was a problem to solve.

 

So he always felt i think that he had to have an answer and couldn't he didn't know.

 

Use to always make me mad afterwards because i would listen then only to find out afterwards he was just guessing...drove me mad.

 

And i would say to him hey it's ok i get it you don't know but next time you are going to guess let me know because i can guess...i'm expecting you to tell me the RIGHT answer if you give me one.

 

So in Giroux's case he just doesn't know how to right the ship. He is human after all...

[flyer4ever]

when you put that C on your sweater and follow the captains that preceded you, "not caring" is not an option. $8.1 million dollars and a NMC also exclude you from "not caring". The mess of the Flyers is not on #28, but being the face of the franchise, no matter the circumstance, compels you to never stop caring, never stop trying. You set the bar, and then you raise it when its reached, and then you raise it again. His team as a group quit multiple times last season. I have no idea how that was dealt with in the room, I hope I never see it again, regardless of what the talent quota is.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, flyer4ever said:

The mess of the Flyers is not on #28, but being the face of the franchise, no matter the circumstance, compels you to never stop caring, never stop trying.

 

And he never stopped caring so this is not an issue as far as i am concerned.

[CoachX]

30 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

He didn't know how to look me or someone else in their eyes and utter these words...."I don't know!"

great post

 

to ease your mind, if I ever find myself in a situation where "I don't know", I will gladly admit it

[mojo1917]

2 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

His team as a group quit multiple times last season. I have no idea how that was dealt with in the room, I hope I never see it again, regardless of what the talent quota is.

That was hard to watch, that team looked lost and whipped. 

No one here has much more than zero knowledge of the interpersonal dynamics of that group so it is impossible to know what went on other than, the group was often beaten before they left the dressing room.

 

I can only relate to my own experiences in leadership which comes down to volunteer kids athletic associations and work ( where I frequently lead a team of 5) , I have no insight to pro athletes.

 

When I felt very strongly about the direction of the athletic assoc, I needed to get buy in from other key people to get the whole group to coalesce around the idea.

In the instances where I couldn't convince my "nco"s that my way was the gilded path, convincing the rest of the group was a much heavier lift, and a few times my idea died on the vine. 

I imagine those instances of ineffectual leadership I have experienced are not unique.

If everyone is freaked out or checked out, one guy can only do so much, that is a lesson hard learned.

 

I do hope that the guys that have been brought in help to amplify the accountability.

Edited July 30, 2021 by mojo1917

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

if I ever find myself in a situation where "I don't know", I will gladly admit it

Q: What do we say to doubt ?

A: Not today.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

57 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

when you put that C on your sweater and follow the captains that preceded you, "not caring" is not an option. $8.1 million dollars and a NMC also exclude you from "not caring". The mess of the Flyers is not on #28, but being the face of the franchise, no matter the circumstance, compels you to never stop caring, never stop trying. You set the bar, and then you raise it when its reached, and then you raise it again. His team as a group quit multiple times last season. I have no idea how that was dealt with in the room, I hope I never see it again, regardless of what the talent quota is.

 

Giroux wasn't the first and he won't be the last. I think he's exasperated with everything that's taken place and has kind of thrown his arms up in the air. That's where the stop caring has come in. 

 

As for saying 'I don't know,' I don't buy that. He's in the locker room and he knows what's going on. What aggravates me with Giroux is that he doesn't hold people accountable. When Primeau was captain, he never had trouble holding players accountable and they ALL knew what was expected of them. I don't see that with Giroux. I see a captain who has difficulty relaying the coach's message and in turn, difficulty relating the player's concern to the coach. 

 

Honestly, I just think it's time for management and ownership to have a sit down with Claude and seriously ask him if he's ready to move on and if he wants to stay, souks it be easier if he gave up the captaincy and was an assistant. I think his voice still carries weight and fact is, regular season wise, he can still play. I think he needs to be sheltered a bit in the playoffs and that the power play is still his baby, but he needs to start relinquishing things.

[OccamsRazor]

53 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Q: What do we say to doubt ?

A: Not today.

 

[OccamsRazor]

On 7/30/2021 at 12:40 PM, CoachX said:

if I ever find myself in a situation where "I don't know", I will gladly admit it

 

 

Ghost (ARZ): Nov. 2

Voracek (CBJ): Jan. 20

Patrick (VGK): March 8

Myers (NSH): March 17

Hagg (BUF): April 17

 

[elmatus]

On 7/30/2021 at 3:37 PM, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

What aggravates me with Giroux is that he doesn't hold people accountable. When Primeau was captain, he never had trouble holding players accountable and they ALL knew what was expected of them. I don't see that with Giroux. I see a captain who has difficulty relaying the coach's message and in turn, difficulty relating the player's concern to the coach. 

 

I’m not saying this is wrong, but I am curious as to how this would be known. I’ve never heard any players say this about Giroux. I’ve never heard coaches or anyone else who might be involved at the locker room level talk about Giroux in this way. 

 

Again, it’s very possible he doesn’t try to hold anyone accountable, and maybe he does have challenges relaying messages and what not. I’m just wary of saying this when i frankly don’t know. It’s also very possible that he has tried to hold players accountable to whatever extent possible, but that there’s no amount of holding to account that’s good enough to make the players and the team into something they’re not. 

 

For all i know, Giroux tears players a new one after every back to back loss. I have to say i doubt he just sits there and doesn’t get angry or passionate or try to fire the team up. That seems more unlikely to me. 

 

I really think a lot of this kind of granular analysis is frankly unnecessary. I’ve said this many times before, but... We can sit in our chairs far away from the rink and talk about character and find whatever other nebulous excuses we want, but all of that is ignoring a far more likely truth — the team as assembled just isn’t good enough to be a contender. The constituent parts involved don’t amount to a team that can win in the playoffs. That really is the no.1 most logical and rational conclusion to draw after ten years of a rebuild that hasn’t worked. 

 

The coaching has changed. The GM has changed. A good number of other folks in the org have changed too. But none of that matters if you’re building your house out of sticks. And that’s not just Giroux either. In fact, it’s not even mostly Giroux. He’s been one of the only semi bright spots of an otherwise forgettable decade for this team. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by elmatus

[radoran]

They picked "the next Bobby Clarke" and made him and his sidekick the foundations of the franchise.

 

Made a luck run to a Cup Final.

 

Ripped apart the foundation they laid.

 

Bet the farm on a 34yo defenceman.

 

Put it all on a talented playmaking wing that had never been a captain much less a center.

 

Spent eight years telling us they were definitely a playoff team before actually winning a round.

 

I am all about giving this new roster a chance.

 

I still don't have much faith in the Senior Hockey Advisors on staff...

Edited August 12, 2021 by radoran

[mojo1917]

@radoran

It does take luck to make the finals.

And that 2010 team was fortunate to make the playoffs in a shootout and that some other strong teams were eliminated.

The only team I can think of recently that didn't have some luck winning the championship was Tampa. That Tampa team was a wagon. 

That 2010 team under-performed, badly, during the regular season. It was expected to be a contender and ultimately came within a stick knob of playing in a game 7.

That same roster racked up a 106 pts but faltered with goalie-palooza (again) the next season.

That was a good hockey team. 

That team's success was predicated on being good at hockey and not failing upwards. Which is how I interpret comments about that team getting "lucky".

 

All the other things you say there I agree with- so many mis-steps by the senior "hockey men" in the organization. 

 

[Poconono]

When all is said and done, we're gonna be bitchin' and moaning about whoever the next Flyer captain is and Giroux will be remembered fondly.  Just like Lindros, just like Brindy and just like so many of the goons Flyer fans wanted driven out of town.  Time heals all wounds.

[mojo1917]

Interesting article about Giroux by Charlie O'Connor. 

It is most likely behind a paywall- apologies for that.

I think Charlie does a good job in his Flyers coverage. 

https://twitter.com/TheAthleticNHL/status/1425509819625009156?s=20

[OccamsRazor]

Man i am just ready for some hockey....just something new to discuss. And well we have some time to sit and wait. It is like watching paint dry. Hey at least football is starting back.

 

I guess i'll get my bourbon ready for some preseason Eagles/Steelers tonight.

 

Not much but better than beating this disintegrating horse we have beat into oblivion...hopefully everyone gets out healthy.

 

The QB debate in Philly should give us something to discuss at least till week one of the NFL season...then back to hockey once the preseason starts up...guess it's never completely boring around here.

 

[mojo1917]

49 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

The QB debate in Philly should give us something to discuss at least till week one of the NFL season...

Flacco v Hurts ?

that's a thing?

 

I guess Flacco can still sling it a mile down the sideline. 

Devonta Smith will need to be healthy for Ol' Joe to have a shot. If he can't stretch the field with the deep ball he's really not good.