The dust has settled (for now).....

[OccamsRazor]

8 minutes ago, Digityman said:

 

Who really looks at stats anyway?  /s     Fine, try them there and see if they can match their production from last year.   If they can, great I'll allow it. 

 

Giroux - Couturier - Atkinson

Farabee - Hayes - Allison

JVR - Frost - Konecny

Lindblom - Laughton - NAK

 

This is still my off the wall option:

Farabee - Couturier – Atkinson
Frost - Giroux –  Allison
JVR – Hayes – Konecny
Lindblom – Laughton - NAK

 

I am sure with new personnel they will start with a clean slate and AV will decide on performance.

 

I am good with whatever he starts with.

[mojo1917]

5 hours ago, Digityman said:

I like Giroux and want to see him finish his career here but trading him is the right 'business' decision I think.

If the Flyers are in playoff contention, I cannot see this happening. 

 

I certainly feel like he should not get the Ovechkin retirement package. The would be a colossal mismanagement of funds.

If he and Couturier flip-flop their salaries the cap impact will be minimal. This the way I can see 28 retiring a Flyer.

Does this happen though? 

If he's thinking at 35 he's still a 7million aav player then he's as good as gone. 

 

[OccamsRazor]

17 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

If the Flyers are in playoff contention, I cannot see this happening. 

 

I certainly feel like he should not get the Ovechkin retirement package. The would be a colossal mismanagement of funds.

If he and Couturier flip-flop their salaries the cap impact will be minimal. This the way I can see 28 retiring a Flyer.

Does this happen though? 

If he's thinking at 35 he's still a 7million aav player then he's as good as gone. 

 

 

Yes. However it depends on what kind of year they have.

 

He'll you could always trade him and then resign him in the offseason still.

 

But if he is traded something bad happened this year....and it will be the least of our worries. Coots could be joining him.

[radoran]

3 hours ago, Digityman said:

Hayes might be the only one that wouldn't reach that if he plays like he did last year. 

 

Fun Fact: Hayes actually has yet to score 50 as a Flyer - even given the shortened seasons. He projected to 49 in Y1 and 46 in Y2.

 

He's only ever put up an actual 50 points in a season once (he projected to 53 in another year).

[Digityman]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

Fun Fact: Hayes actually has yet to score 50 as a Flyer

Is that a fun fact? 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

10 hours ago, Digityman said:

Found this site which picks the lines for fantasy sports.  "Players ratings by corsica hockey".   

I was thinking Atkinson would be up with Giroux/Couturier but I don't like Konecny with Hayes.

 

 

I was thinking more of: 

Giroux - Couturier - Atkinson

JVR - Hayes - NAK

Farabee - Frost - Konecny

Lindblom - Laughton - Allison

 

That 2nd line would be more checking than the 3rd.

3rd is young but has a lot of potential.

 

 

I'd flip NAK and Alison. 

[SCFlyguy]

19 hours ago, CoachX said:

What? In the other thread you just said, "I don't see this team getting out of the second round even under the best of circumstances.

 

Imo their ceiling is making the playoffs and maybe wining one round.  That would require a number of things to go right, including Hart returning to at least his 19-20 form."

 

I'm past the point of taking anything you say seriously. Maybe you should just go back to complaining about everything.

I'm not sure why you have a bee in your bonnet, but read again and you will see both statements are consistent.  Like nearly every year the last ten years, they are a borderline playoff team depending on how things go:

 

If things go well (Hart is good, etc.), they could make the playoffs, maybe win a round (or not), but won't get out of the second round under any circumstances.  They just don't have the talent.

 

If things go poorly (Hart is bad, Risko skates into the boards on the regular), they will miss the playoffs, maybe by a lot.  They just don't have the talent.

 

The difference between me and you (and Fletcher, apparently), is that you think the Flyers' have a ton of talent and their problems were mental, while I think the Flyers are a dumb, dumb team that doesn't have nearly enough talent to make any serious run.

Edited July 29, 2021 by SCFlyguy

[yave1964]

16 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Fun Fact: Hayes actually has yet to score 50 as a Flyer - even given the shortened seasons. He projected to 49 in Y1 and 46 in Y2.

 

He's only ever put up an actual 50 points in a season once (he projected to 53 in another year).

that is not his game. a solid 2c or a great 3c who plays in all situations and is one of the most cerebral players. slow as death but opportunistic overpaid a bit as all free agents are but among the best od his type. if you expect more you will be disappointed but he can play.

[elmatus]

It'll definitely be an interesting season to see what shakes out. Personally, I don't feel at all confident about making predictions right now. There have been just too many personnel changes. It's worth noting that we lost two players I feel we really had to lose in Ghost and Voracek, so that's a plus. Fletch paid what he had to for the first, and he got an alright and different player back with Atkinson. Hard to say how those things work out in the end, but I don't hate it.

 

Ellis should be good and is probably the safest of the moves overall. Yandle may be a bit vanilla in his old age, but he was cheap and is likely still better than half our current defense. He brings in big experience numbers and can help mentor some kids along with Ellis, so that's fine too.

 

Jones is... well, i guess i don't know. Given what happened last season, I would have pushed for Fletch to get a much more established goalie, even if it meant cutting significantly into Hart's playing time. Hart was absolutely atrocious last year -- at a level that goes beyond having an iffy defense core in front of him. He was terrible at doing his job. It would have been nice to nab someone who could take the reins if needed, and I don't know if Jones is that guy. Jones is the guy you sign to hold you over while Hart does the heavy lifting. Hard to say if that works out. Hart needs to make up a lot of ground from last season. I'm not saying he can't, only that he must. Regardless of any improvements elsewhere, we're not making the playoffs if he plays like he did last season (unless Jones is able to take the starter role anyway).

 

And finally, I do not like Risto -- at all. Of all the moves, he's the only move I really don't like. I don't imagine I have to explain why. Others have done so already, as has virtually every sports writer and analyst in the world. And no, I don't think his awful play over the entirety of his career is just because he played for Buffalo. It's far more likely he was part of the problem in Buffalo, not some guy who was being held back.

 

Of course, AV doesn't have to play him much, which is what I predict will end up happening honestly. I bet Risto will get some chances and looks for the first 1/4 of the season or so, then AV will drop him down to third pairing minutes. He may play on the PP, but otherwise I expect he'll have Hagg-type minutes once AV gets fed up with his awful decision making, ungodly defensive gaffes, and terrible tendency to spend half his time in the box.

 

So even if Risto turns out to be a bust in these terms, the rest of the team has changed so significantly, I still have no idea what the end result will be. It's an interesting off-season at the very least, which isn't something we've been able to say for quite a while now.

 

The question of whether Fletch overpaid for these guys is another matter entirely. I think it's safe to say he almost certainly did overpay for Risto. The rest, meh. More to the point though, this is absolutely Fletch's team now. There are no more excuses for him to say he carried over a bunch of stuff. He's moved a major part of the core in Voracek, completely retooled the defense, and opted to take a lesser goalie when other more established ones were available. Whatever happens this season is now on his shoulders more than anyone else (including AV) -- and I for one will be placing whatever successes or failures we see this season in large part on him.

Edited July 29, 2021 by elmatus

[Digityman]

22 minutes ago, elmatus said:

I bet Risto will get some chances and looks for the first 1/4 of the season or so, then AV will drop him down to third pairing minutes. He may play on the PP, but otherwise I expect he'll have Hagg-type minutes

I have a little more faith than you that he will provide more than Hagg but even if he doesn't, thankfully he's a UFA and he isn't albatross on the roster.  Low risk, high reward.

 

22 minutes ago, elmatus said:

I would have pushed for Fletch to get a much more established goalie, even if it meant cutting significantly into Hart's playing time.

I'm with you on this.  I really wanted Halak.  I assuming Bernier at 2y, 8.25m was too rich for Chuck.   Hart absolutely sucked last year but if you take a wide view at it, it should just be just a blip in what should be a long successful career.   Kinda like Carey Price's blips.    If it carries over to this year and he sucks again, they have a real problem with Jones/Hart as a tandem.  I'm hoping Chuck just grabbed Jones because there wasn't much left and then he's trying to work a trade with JVR as the bait.  

Edited July 29, 2021 by Digityman

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I'm not worried about Hart. Considering he was suffering from depression and anxiety last year and now that it's diagnosed, I'm expecting a Robin Lehner type rebound from him. The key is going to be recognizing when an episode is coming on and being on top of things every day. 

 

I don't think the staff was prepared last year with regards to dealing with what was happening with Hart. Now that everyone knows, I'm certain that a mental health expert will be with the team at all times. 

 

My concern with the offseason though has been that none of these moves are significant upgrades. They're all lateral at best. So it will be interesting to see what happens. If they stay out slow or look disorganized, Vigneault's dead man walking. If after the first 10 games they're 5 or 6 games below .500, Vigneault and company are gone. 

[elmatus]

5 minutes ago, Digityman said:

I'm with you on this.  I really wanted Halak.  I assuming Bernier at 2y, 8.25m was too rich for Chuck.   Hart absolutely sucked last year but if you take a wide view at it, it should just be just a blip in what should be a long successful career.   Kinda like Carey Price's blips.    If it carries over to this year and he sucks again, they have a real problem with Jones/Hart as a tandem.  I'm hoping Chuck just grabbed Jones because there wasn't much left and then he's trying to work a trade with JVR as the bait.  

 

Yeah, and I'm certainly not saying Hart is a lost cause or anything, only that he had an atrocious season. That happens to all goalies, even the good ones. Hopefully last season was just a blip for him, and he'll find a way to right the ship. He should have every opportunity to do so, as Ellis and Yandle are both experienced and reliable rearguards. And if Provo can step up with Ellis the way he was able to with Niskanen, his presence should be much improved also. 

 

I still think Risto is awful until proven otherwise, mostly because he has always been awful, and I'm not a big fan of hoping for lottery ticket winnings. But even if Risto is awful, the rest of the personnel changes on the back end should be able to make up for it. The addition of Yandle in particular means Risto can play third pairing minutes, and it should be fine. In fact, I'd bet good money Yandle was signed precisely for this reason. He's intended as insurance if and when Risto becomes Risto.

[radoran]

59 minutes ago, yave1964 said:

that is not his game. a solid 2c or a great 3c who plays in all situations and is one of the most cerebral players. slow as death but opportunistic overpaid a bit as all free agents are but among the best od his type. if you expect more you will be disappointed but he can play.

 

The context was a comment that if he didn't score 50 the Flyers were in trouble.

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said:

I'm not sure why you have a bee in your bonnet, but read again and you will see both statements are consistent.  Like nearly every year the last ten years, they are a borderline playoff team depending on how things go:

 

If things go well (Hart is good, etc.), they could make the playoffs, maybe win a round (or not), but won't get out of the second round under any circumstances.  They just don't have the talent.

 

If things go poorly (Hart is bad, Risko skates into the boards on the regular), they will miss the playoffs, maybe by a lot.  They just don't have the talent.

 

The difference between me and you (and Fletcher, apparently), is that you think the Flyers' have a ton of talent and their problems were mental, while I think the Flyers are a dumb, dumb team that doesn't have nearly enough talent to make any serious run.

your definition if consistent, and the rest of the English speaking world's, is drastically different.

 

But its your story, tell it however you want

 

And the difference between you and I, is that I don't make statements telling people how they feel and how they think. that's a tactic used by people who are closed minded and full of themselves

[elmatus]

37 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I'm not worried about Hart. Considering he was suffering from depression and anxiety last year and now that it's diagnosed, I'm expecting a Robin Lehner type rebound from him. The key is going to be recognizing when an episode is coming on and being on top of things every day. 

 

I don't think the staff was prepared last year with regards to dealing with what was happening with Hart. Now that everyone knows, I'm certain that a mental health expert will be with the team at all times. 

 

My concern with the offseason though has been that none of these moves are significant upgrades. They're all lateral at best. So it will be interesting to see what happens. If they stay out slow or look disorganized, Vigneault's dead man walking. If after the first 10 games they're 5 or 6 games below .500, Vigneault and company are gone. 

 

Performance anxiety in particular is extremely common among athletes. One of the biggest correlations in this case is competitiveness as a trait, which of course is essentially a must have for anyone who makes it to this level of play. Another big one is sense of responsibility, which could very well be exceptionally high for someone like Hart. Many pro sports teams have begun employing sports psychologists and counsellors to fill this need, which is absolutely what needs to happen. 

 

I can guarantee to you that Hart is not the only player on the current roster who undoubtedly deals with very high levels of performance anxiety in particular. As for depression, the truth is depression and anxiety are two sides of the same coin a lot of the time. It's also worth noting that anxiety and depression are not illnesses in the same way as something like schizophrenia is an illness. Every human being will experience some amount of depression over their lifetime, and we all experience some levels of anxiety regularly. The important part isn't ignoring or minimizing anxiety, it's learning how best to deal with it. Folks who "struggle" with anxiety can absolutely learn to deal with it better, which is where a professional plays a part.

 

All to say the team should have a good 2-3 MH counsellors available to players at all times, and having a sports psychologist to oversee them wouldn't be out of place either. For a team as well-financed as the Flyers, that should be no problem at all, and really should just be rolled into their medical services generally.

 

I realise I just ran all over the place rather than speaking just about Hart. The truth is, I would be much more shocked if Hart didn't experience heightened anxiety given his position and role on the team. Virtually anyone would, and he should absolutely be supported in this as you say.

Edited July 29, 2021 by elmatus

[CoachX]

The whole argument about Hart getting hurt from overuse just doesn't make sense to me. Its the same as MLB pitchers. The  greats of the game, just using Roy and Broduer as examples, played a ton of games every season, and they didn't get hurt. And I would argue it was harder being a goalie then, then now.

 

If Hart wants to be in a class among the great goalies, he needs to be durable and a workhorse. And let's face it, he's going to have to be great to win a Cup in Philly, because this team isn't going to be that good anytime soon. And if he can't be durable and a workhorse, then the best we can hope for is that he becomes a Nick Foles, and the stars align to win one.

 

Personally, I'd like to see him be a long term answer, winning more than one, and competing for many. Anything less and he isnt the answer in goal we have all been hoping for

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

My concern with the offseason though has been that none of these moves are significant upgrades.

I'm sorry but Ellis is a significant upgrade over...the rotating monkey football fucqfest that was 1st pair defense and last season.

I'm sure you just forgot about that and were thinking about everything that came afterwards.

 

[Brewin Flames]

34 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

Performance anxiety in particular is extremely common among athletes. One of the biggest correlations in this case is competitiveness as a trait, which of course is essentially a must have for anyone who makes it to this level of play. Another big one is sense of responsibility, which could very well be exceptionally high for someone like Hart. Many pro sports teams have begun employing sports psychologists and counsellors to fill this need, which is absolutely what needs to happen. 

 

I can guarantee to you that Hart is not the only player on the current roster who undoubtedly deals with very high levels of performance anxiety in particular. As for depression, the truth is depression and anxiety are two sides of the same coin a lot of the time. It's also worth noting that anxiety and depression are not illnesses in the same way as something like schizophrenia is an illness. Every human being will experience some amount of depression over their lifetime, and we all experience some levels of anxiety regularly. The important part isn't ignoring or minimizing anxiety, it's learning how best to deal with it. Folks who "struggle" with anxiety can absolutely learn to deal with it better, which is where a professional plays a part.

 

All to say the team should have a good 2-3 MH counsellors available to players at all times, and having a sports psychologist to oversee them wouldn't be out of place either. For a team as well-financed as the Flyers, that should be no problem at all, and really should just be rolled into their medical services generally.

 

I realise I just ran all over the place rather than speaking just about Hart. The truth is, I would be much more shocked if Hart didn't experience heightened anxiety given his position and role on the team. Virtually anyone would, and he should absolutely be supported in this as you say.

 

 

If i may, and i'll try and keep it short because i don't have the vocabulary to engage in a serious disscussion.

 

Two words on this topic, Tuuka Rask.

 

Imagine if you will being him for a second....It's not even an argument that he has been consistently the best netminder in the nhl for the past decade, and yet 3 times the bruins had a potential cup in the grasp and failed, Choked in the series vs the flyers, blew it vs the blackhawks and blues. Not all the blames lies on him, anyone with hockey sense knows this, however....gets absolutly destroyed online, leaves the bubble for family issues and sometimes might not be mentally ready for action.

 

If you think he does not hear the buzz, you'd be wrong. And we as fans, say he's mentally weak, not mentally strong to win us a cup, he sucks, trade him, see ya, etc, all while overlooking the FACT that he's the winningest goaltender in B's history and his stats back it up.

 

Forward to Carter Hart, highly touted and gets drafted by philly...

 

The notorious philly fans, who are relentless and unforgiving, will destroy hart as well if he does not deliver a cup. Imagine the immense pressure the man is season after season, and while he is still young and hopefully has a long way to go (flyers fans have been waiting for this forever) if you think he doesn't hear the noise....

 

I know i rambled alot, but having a counsellor is not a bad thing.

[OccamsRazor]

8 minutes ago, Brewin Flames said:

The notorious philly fans, who are relentless and unforgiving, will destroy hart as well if he does not deliver a cup.

 

I wish this wasn't so true. But a very good post by you.

 

And social media today has made matters so much more worse, for a faceless fans to have the gall to say something they would never say to a man's face without swallowing their teeth has a lot to do with it.

 

Social media sadly is mostly the scourge of the earth but there are too some good things on it but you have to wade through all the garbage to get to it all the time.

 

Sad times we are in....

[mojo1917]

45 minutes ago, elmatus said:

It's also worth noting that anxiety and depression are not illnesses in the same way as something like schizophrenia is an illness. Every human being will experience some amount of depression over their lifetime, and we all experience some levels of anxiety regularly.

This isn't accurate.

Clinical Depression is absolutely an illness.

Depression (major depressive disorder) - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic

Everyone experiences sadness and sorrow people who don't suffer from depression bounce back from sadness and sorrow.

 

 

 

[flyercanuck]

23 hours ago, CoachX said:

Moving JVR would be the coup d'etat for Chuckie. He needs to do it

 

Meh....getting himself fired would be IMHO.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I'm sorry but Ellis is a significant upgrade over...the rotating monkey football fucqfest that was 1st pair defense and last season.

I'm sure you just forgot about that and were thinking about everything that came afterwards.

 

Yeah I should have removed Ellis from that statement. I gave kudos to Schmuck Felcher on that one. That was a grand slam. 

Edited July 29, 2021 by BobbyClarkeFan16

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

Social media sadly is mostly the scourge of the earth but there are too some good things on it but you have to wade through all the garbage to get to it all the time.

 

Sad times we are in....

That just about sums up our society in a nutshell……

 

People simply have lost respect for one another…..

[elmatus]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

This isn't accurate.

Clinical Depression is absolutely an illness.

Depression (major depressive disorder) - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic

Everyone experiences sadness and sorrow people who don't suffer from depression bounce back from sadness and sorrow.

 

 

 

 

Hold up now, my statement was not that depression is not an illness, it was that it’s very different from something like schizophrenia. I note this because it isn’t something very many people understand. Many people conflate all things psychological in one big umbrella.

 

major differences relevant to this discussion are that: a) we are all susceptible to developing mood disorders like anxiety and depression — the model often used to understand this is one of stress tolerance, which is something we all have. And b) mood disorders are far more common than other psychological disorders and illnesses. My statement included the provision that many athletes struggle with performance anxiety especially, which is very true. So true in fact that it’s virtually a certainty there are others on the team who do also.

 

i mention the first point because people too often see something like depression and think someone is now damaged goods. Mood disorders are both much more common than many realise and very manageable with the right support, which is why i mentioned the stuff about having MH professionals readily available. 

 

If Hart received a formal diagnosis, it’s also likely he now has medication, which is a good first step. He likely will also be seeing someone for CBT, which is the usual method for that diagnosis (at least here in Canada... i don’t imagine it’s different in the US)

[mojo1917]

@elmatus

I see what you're saying.

thanks for clarifying