Dvorak traded to Habs for a first and a second

[yave1964]

Wow that was quick.

 

After losing Kotkaniemi to the Hurricanes when Bergevin refused to match the Hurricanes offer sheet, within minutes the Habs have added the veteran and almost criminally underrated Christian Dvorak from the Arizona (?) Coyotes for a first this coming year and a second in 2024.

Essentially the deal works out to:

Habs get Dvorak and a first and third

FOR

Kotkaniemi and a second and a fourth

 

IMHO the Habs won the deal hands down. 

 

Hurricanes desperately needed another top nine forward and in the former 3rd pick in his draft class added a damn good one in Kotkaniemi but at a significant price. Still, wow what a payment they gave up.

 

  As for the Coyotes, they continue to turn assets into picks, with this deal the 'Yotes now have three firsts and five seconds in the coming draft already with guys like Kessel and others still on the market it is extremely likely they will have ten picks in the first two rounds in next years draft. Read that again. The Coyotes will have ten picks in the first two rounds. Massive injection for a rebuild.

 

  Anyway, Dvorak traded., Kotkaniemi signed, 'Yotes loading up on picks. Fun day aftera bunch of boring ones.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, yave1964 said:

Wow that was quick.

 

After losing Kotkaniemi to the Hurricanes when Bergevin refused to match the Hurricanes offer sheet, within minutes the Habs have added the veteran and almost criminally underrated Christian Dvorak from the Arizona (?) Coyotes for a first this coming year and a second in 2024.

Essentially the deal works out to:

Habs get Dvorak and a first and third

FOR

Kotkaniemi and a second and a fourth

 

IMHO the Habs won the deal hands down. 

 

Hurricanes desperately needed another top nine forward and in the former 3rd pick in his draft class added a damn good one in Kotkaniemi but at a significant price. Still, wow what a payment they gave up.

 

  As for the Coyotes, they continue to turn assets into picks, with this deal the 'Yotes now have three firsts and five seconds in the coming draft already with guys like Kessel and others still on the market it is extremely likely they will have ten picks in the first two rounds in next years draft. Read that again. The Coyotes will have ten picks in the first two rounds. Massive injection for a rebuild.

 

  Anyway, Dvorak traded., Kotkaniemi signed, 'Yotes loading up on picks. Fun day aftera bunch of boring ones.

This was a terrific upgrade for Montreal. Social media is cracking me up with people--who clearly only watch Habs games--calling for Bergevin to be fired.

 

I'm no fan of Bergevin, but I thought he was terrific at the deadline and he made a great result out of a bad situation with KK.

 

Why didn't Carolina just trade for Dvorak?  I have not been at all impressed with Carolina's offseason.

[radoran]

14 hours ago, yave1964 said:

Essentially the deal works out to:

Habs get Dvorak and a first and third

FOR

Kotkaniemi and a second and a fourth

14 hours ago, yave1964 said:

Essentially the deal works out to:

Habs get Dvorak and a first and third

FOR

Kotkaniemi and a second and a fourth

 

IMHO the Habs won the deal hands down. 

 

How does the 1st and 2nd turn into a 2nd and a 4th here?

 

Montreal got back two lower picks and a midrange player four years older for the 21 year old 3rd pick in his draft class.

 

Again the long term production here will determine the "winner."

[ruxpin]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

How does the 1st and 2nd turn into a 2nd and a 4th here?

 

Montreal got back two lower picks and a midrange player four years older for the 21 year old 3rd pick in his draft class.

 

Again the long term production here will determine the "winner."

 

The total of the transaction was

Kotkaniemi, 1st, 2nd for

Dvorak, 1st, 3rd

 

The firsts are a wash. I don't know ultimately which first rounder will be the higher pick but ultimately probably in the same range.

 

So, it amounts to KK and 2nd for Dvorak and 3rd.  For me, the age difference is immaterial.   I don't like KK. I think he's grossly over-valued.  Good kid and maybe he does better in Carolina, but I don't think that happens in Montreal.  In the meantime, the Canadians finally get a solid 2C who himself isn't very old yet and who is locked into a reasonable contract for the next 4 years.  That's worth the 2nd for 3rd (in my algebra, anyway. YMMV).

 

As it was written in the post you're responding to, I agree that algebra changes and I'm not sure it's still a great exchange for Montreal (though I still think they walk away with the better player). But as laid out above?  I think Bergevin did really well with a bad situation.

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I think Bergevin did really well with a bad situation.

 

I think he came out fine given the crap hand he dealt himself.

 

Seems like a lot of people rushing to declare the results of the trade before EITHER player has suited up for their new team or ANY of the draft picks are made.

 

I'm old enough to remember a team "winning the trades" and their trading partner winning two Cups while they won a single playoff series in nine years.

[ruxpin]

5 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I think he came out fine given the crap hand he dealt himself.

 

Seems like a lot of people rushing to declare the results of the trade before EITHER player has suited up for their new team or ANY of the draft picks are made.

 

I'm old enough to remember a team "winning the trades" and their trading partner winning two Cups while they won a single playoff series in nine years.

 

I'm not familiar with that circumstance, but alas, you're a lot older than I am.  

[ruxpin]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I think he came out fine given the crap hand he dealt himself.

 

Seems like a lot of people rushing to declare the results of the trade before EITHER player has suited up for their new team or ANY of the draft picks are made.

 

I'm old enough to remember a team "winning the trades" and their trading partner winning two Cups while they won a single playoff series in nine years.

 

This is an instance where I think declaring winners is a bit goofy anyway.   

 

I do think Bergevin came out better than he went in.  I don't think he could have done better had it all been by design.  Because I don't think KK+2nd gets them Dvorak+3rd.  Where Arizona is positioned, they're clearly looking for first round picks.

 

But Montreal didn't want to trade out of the first round to do it.  They got the extra first rounder and, effectively, some cap room from Carolina and pulled off the acquisition.

 

Carolina seems to have gotten they want.  But because I've asked the question with every single move Carolina has made this offseason (goalie, defense, etc), I'll ask here:  why?  I imagine they see something they can work with and is worth $6.1M, but for the life of me I have no idea what.

 

While we haven't seen them play on their new teams--and I understand that will change some things--we've seen enough to date to wonder what justifies $6.1M for KK.  I've seen enough Chevy Malibus to know not to pay a Toyota Camry price for it. I don't need to drive it to confirm it.

 

But they seemed to have gotten the player they wanted and he slots into their lineup well, I think.  So that works, and it's not my money.

 

Each club involved seems to have accomplished what they wanted to, so I agree "winner" at this point seems goofy.

 

But this fell so well for Montreal (needing an extra first and getting it to get the center they wanted) that I can't help thinking the offer sheet of KK exercise was choreographed.

[radoran]

8 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I'm not familiar with that circumstance, but alas, you're a lot older than I am.  

 

Are you familiar with a top 10 pick guy who came into the league at 18 and was "disappointing" for only putting up .39 points per game in his first three seasons?

 

He just signed an eight year deal with the Flyers as a foundation of their franchise.

 

Kotkaniemi averaged .36 ppg in his first three seasons.

[ruxpin]

6 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Are you familiar with a top 10 pick guy who came into the league at 18 and was "disappointing" for only putting up .39 points per game in his first three seasons?

 

He just signed an eight year deal with the Flyers as a foundation of their franchise.

 

Kotkaniemi averaged .36 ppg in his first three seasons.

 

Not exactly apples to apples in that the aforementioned foundation guy contributed on defense, faceoffs and other ways.  KK's .36 ppg really is about the fill6 sum of his 3 years. It's why he couldn't stay in the lineup.

 

Again, though, the point isn't really to bash him.  Just that nothing to date supports $6.1M.   I know only one year, and we'll see what happens but the offseason the Carolina front office has had also doesn't support any confidence that they have the foggiest idea what they're doing.

 

Could turn out well. I really liked the kotkaniemi pick when it was made. I was jealous, actually. So, we'll see.  Either way, I think the Habs got a good player and didn't pay a lot for that muffler.

[OccamsRazor]

Seems like Arizona is already throwing the towel in before camp and is posturing themselves for the tank as we speak.

 

Their top two center now will be Schmaltz and Hayton followed by Larsson and Beagle down the middle.

 

Just sad....

[radoran]

17 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Not exactly apples to apples in that the aforementioned foundation guy contributed on defense, faceoffs and other ways.  KK's .36 ppg really is about the fill6 sum of his 3 years. It's why he couldn't stay in the lineup.

 

Couturier's FO% in his first three years aren't that different than JK.

 

He was +12 to JK -11 - so 23 goals difference over three seasons.

 

Pretty sure those are both apples...

[ruxpin]

57 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Couturier's FO% in his first three years aren't that different than JK.

 

He was +12 to JK -11 - so 23 goals difference over three seasons.

 

Pretty sure those are both apples...

YMMV.

 

I don't see two apples on the +/-.

Sorry, I just don't think they're similar players.  Again, I liked JK and am happy to be wrong (I grew impatient with Coots and was wrong, so there's precedence, but even back then I saw the value in other things he brought. It was just an inpatient "score, dammit!"). 

 

Regardless, unless Dvorak forgets how to play, I think he's better for Montreal's needs and he's cost controlled. That's a win.  "Win for Montreal" doesn't have to mean "loss" for either of the other two teams. Each seemingly have done what will likely help their teams.

[radoran]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

"Win for Montreal" doesn't have to mean "loss" for either of the other two teams. Each seemingly have done what will likely help their teams.

 

True story.

[Fixxer]

It's kinda sad to see KK go.. but despite Dvorak being older, what you see is what you get and he comes cheaper than KK.

Things turned out for the best IMO. And, Bergevin was heavily criticized since day 1, so I won't get into the bandwagon. lol - Since losing in the finals, there has been so much criticism on him, that's unreal!! Looking forward to training camp!

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

6 minutes ago, Fixxer said:

It's kinda sad to see KK go.. but despite Dvorak being older, what you see is what you get and he comes cheaper than KK.

Things turned out for the best IMO. And, Bergevin was heavily criticized since day 1, so I won't get into the bandwagon. lol - Since losing in the finals, there has been so much criticism on him, that's unreal!! Looking forward to training camp!

 

Thing with Bergevin, IMO, is that his tenure is a decidedly "mixed bag" so far.
He does some boneheaded (or seemingly) things....then follows up with something good.

The team scratching and clawing its way all the way to the Finals, to me, was more a testament to the players' own heart, soul, and refusal to lose, because really, on paper, the way Bergevin put together that team, they should NOT have gotten that far.

Doing something like trading away a Mikhail Sergachev for a Jonathan Drouin hasn't helped his image.
But then, allowing someone like Philip Danault to get overpaid elsewhere, allowing a potentially 6M+ KK (who didn't seem to be working out in Montreal) to go for picks, AND acquiring someone like Christian Dvorak here, makes him look damned good once again.

Of course, if JK prospers in Carolina, I expect Bergevin to be criticized yet again...

I've just come to the conclusion that with Marc Bergevin, you just never know what he will do next. Very unpredictable.

At the very least, for the most part, he gets players in there that care about winning.
Whether they are long term viable, or capable of putting the team over the top is another thing entirely.
Eric Staal and Corey Perry are good examples of that.

Personally, I think the Habs should be in retool mode if not in rebuild mode.
On the fly transitioning, as it were, because it seems the Habs' fanbase will simply not accept a full on rebuild.

Is MB capable of pulling that off?
Who knows.... he seems to live life 'on the edge' as a GM.
Constantly at front of death's door, then looking revitalized at various other points.

 

[Fixxer]

4 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

Thing with Bergevin, IMO, is that his tenure is a decidedly "mixed bag" so far.
He does some boneheaded (or seemingly) things....then follows up with something good.

The team scratching and clawing its way all the way to the Finals, to me, was more a testament to the players' own heart, soul, and refusal to lose, because really, on paper, the way Bergevin put together that team, they should NOT have gotten that far.

Doing something like trading away a Mikhail Sergachev for a Jonathan Drouin hasn't helped his image.
But then, allowing someone like Philip Danault to get overpaid elsewhere, allowing a potentially 6M+ KK (who didn't seem to be working out in Montreal) to go for picks, AND acquiring someone like Christian Dvorak here, makes him look damned good once again.

Of course, if JK prospers in Carolina, I expect Bergevin to be criticized yet again...

I've just come to the conclusion that with Marc Bergevin, you just never know what he will do next. Very unpredictable.

At the very least, for the most part, he gets players in there that care about winning.
Whether they are long term viable, or capable of putting the team over the top is another thing entirely.
Eric Staal and Corey Perry are good examples of that.

Personally, I think the Habs should be in retool mode if not in rebuild mode.
On the fly transitioning, as it were, because it seems the Habs' fanbase will simply not accept a full on rebuild.

Is MB capable of pulling that off?
Who knows.... he seems to live life 'on the edge' as a GM.
Constantly at front of death's door, then looking revitalized at various other points.

 

The thing with Bergevin was that he was good at trading (except a few blunders) but they weren't able to draft/develop Elite talent. There has been a bunch of mediocre teams, but I never felt that Bergevin did that bad, but he'd only keep things afloat. As for the 2020 offseason, he went All-In in getting Edmundson, Allen, Toffoli and Anderson. He didn't have a team of stars, but a team of hard workers who played the right way. It wasn't a "successful" season, but it was awesome in the playoffs, kinda how it was expected by Bergevin. 

Yes, the Drouin trade was.. bad. Especially since Marc seemed to have such high praise of the kid, who turned out to still be trying junior stuff like blind passes and overhandling the puck. That Halifax team he played on was LOADED, so you gotta see that there was some stat inflation out there. Drouin is still a 50 point guy in the NHL though.

Honestly, with KK, he was mishandled, brought in too quickly and Julien didn't seem to like him. I mean, you could tell that he was not one of the players he liked much. 

All in all, Bergevin's team are mostly made of hard working guys, with character and leadership. It's still difficult to win a championship when your best player is your goalie, in this era of super fast play with pucks bouncing here and there. Let's just hope the Habs makes the playoffs. I always liked Bergevin's relationship with the media, as he answers questions, can play with the media a bit if they try and sneak in and .. just a funny guy overall. He seems to be a bit worn out as of late, these years as a GM are piling up on him.

[yave1964]

18 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Couturier's FO% in his first three years aren't that different than JK.

 

He was +12 to JK -11 - so 23 goals difference over three seasons.

 

Pretty sure those are both apples...

I thought your trade that you mentioned was Esposito, Hodge and Stanfield from the Bruins to the Hawks which most pundits declared a big win for the Hawks right off as they eliminated the headcase Espo and added nice Pit Martin as a calming influence and how it won two cups for the Bruins and sent the Hawks on a dark path. 

 

 No as mentioned essentially the firsts are a wash so it comes down to a second and Kotkaniemi for a 3rd and Dvorak. I happen to like Dvorak quite a lot and think he is a very underrated player looking for a team to use him right as a 2C/PK guy who has had success on the power play. At this point in his career he is the better player and if the Habs think that last year was not a blip and they want to crack the playoffs this year against the Bruins/Bolts/Cats/Leafs they are improved for 021-22. Kotkaniemi could be a solid center for a decade but so far the evidence is not there. He could take off and be the missing piece for the Canes who were in desperate need of a top nine forward at this point of the offseason where the music had stopped and the seats were full. The payout of 6 million plus a first/3rd seems ridiculously high but I am glad as hell to see someone actually use the offer sheet to land a player.

 

 The big winner IMHO is the Coyotes who landed yet another first rounder in the upcoming draft. Whatever State/Country they will be playing in by 2025/26 they should be a fun team to watch, lol

[Podein25]

On 9/6/2021 at 3:45 AM, yave1964 said:

I happen to like Dvorak quite a lot and think he is a very underrated player looking for a team to use him right as a 2C/PK guy who has had success on the power play.

 

Agreed. He's also a very smart player. I like smart players.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, Podein25 said:

 

Agreed. He's also a very smart player. I like smart players.

[Math]

I think Dvorak is a much better and complete player than KK while being cheaper. Bergevin did great and it kills me to say that. About the picks, the Habs gave up a second for a third (netto) but it doesn't matter at all: Montréal sucks in drafting anyway.

[OccamsRazor]

22 minutes ago, Math said:

I think Dvorak is a much better and complete player than KK while being cheaper.

 

Sure.

 

He should be he will be 26 mid season KK just turned 21.

 

Most are.

[Mad Dog]

I have mixed feeling about Dvorak.  One one hand, he certainly has skills. But he has not come even close to matching his OHL stats in the NHL.  I am sure the Coyotes were getting frustrated and impatient with his development.  But his contract is insanely appealing: $4.4 mil through the 2024-25 season.  That's probably the main consideration behind why the Habs made this move and did it so quickly, thinking that other teams were lining up.

 

Wonder though whether with this move, combined with what they did early this summer, Phoenix decided to not even bother this year. I can see Clayton Keller becoming a face of this franchise, but does he have it what it takes?  Looking at what thy lost (Oliver Ekman-Larsson, Connor Garland, and both of Adin Hill and Darcy Kuemper), I can't imagine they have any road but rebuild.

[radoran]

If the Flyers gave up a 1st and a 2nd to "fill a hole" with a 26yo who had never scored 20 goals or put up 50 points I don't think that would have gone down well around here.

 

Montreal got what they needed - a relatively cheap option who "can" play 2nd line center in Arizona - but I think we all agree this "Cup Finalist" Habs team was a pandemic fluke more than a serious contender. Not having Weber is a huge hole they can't fill.

 

I'll wager they don't even make the playoffs next season.

[flyercanuck]

25 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

 

I'll wager they don't even make the playoffs next season.

 

Pass.

[OccamsRazor]

10 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Pass.

 

So you're the one who has been coaching Jake Voracek!