Game 17: Flyers at Lightning; 11/23/21 @ 7 PM, NBCSP

[GratefulFlyers]

The team may not be loaded with talent like some teams but the Flyers have enough good players. They should be  better than a .500 team, esp with the goaltending they're getting. But they're not scoring and both PP units struggle just to enter the zone cleanly. So what's the problem?

 

To me it comes down to coaching. They've had opportunities to practice but whatever they're doing in the off days isn't translating to the ice. Or worse, maybe it is...

 

Specifically: this team is plagued by bad passing and they miss by wide margins. Short, 6-foot passes miss the mark and it's another turnover. The top 6 spend their shift defending instead of attacking and it wears them down.

 

How is bad passing on the coaches? Because the rushes aren't coordinated. At even strength they scramble to get out of the D zone. On the PP they have the one strategy thru the neutral zone: the slingshot. When that doesn't go well they force the issue and get stopped at the blue line.

 

I'm sure there's a lot more but fixing the basics would help this team score goals.

Edited November 24, 2021 by GratefulFlyers

[Podein25]

14 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

this team is plagued by bad passing and they miss by wide margins. The gaps coming up ice seem to be okay; the forwards aren't cheating too much that I can see. But too often the short, 6-foot pass misses the mark and it's another turnover.

 

I'm with you on the bad passing, it's been a theme for years. I do think it is more symptom than cause though, because I refuse to believe that an NHL caliber player can't make a 6' pass under normal conditions. 

 

I'm not sure I agree on the gaps being ok. Last night, before I turned it off, I noticed several times that when our Dman got the puck (stationary of course) that all three forwards took off in a straight line away from the puck, quickly eliminating any good outs, any good angles. Earlier in the year the D were flipping the puck, which seemed to be working. Atkinson scored a game tying goal off one of those to send the game to OT, if I recall. We seemed to have stopped doing that, but whatever we are doing now is not working. 

 

Getting out of our own end is an absolute horror show. I don't see enough support and I don't see guys moving their feet. We just look slow everywhere on the ice. Team slow. Our fast skaters never look fast, we don't move the puck fast, or well. We lose almost every battle because we are slower to get there. 

[FD19372]

13 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

I'm with you on the bad passing, it's been a theme for years. I do think it is more symptom than cause though, because I refuse to believe that an NHL caliber player can't make a 6' pass under normal conditions. 

 

I'm not sure I agree on the gaps being ok. Last night, before I turned it off, I noticed several times that when our Dman got the puck (stationary of course) that all three forwards took off in a straight line away from the puck, quickly eliminating any good outs, any good angles. Earlier in the year the D were flipping the puck, which seemed to be working. Atkinson scored a game tying goal off one of those to send the game to OT, if I recall. We seemed to have stopped doing that, but whatever we are doing now is not working. 

 

Getting out of our own end is an absolute horror show. I don't see enough support and I don't see guys moving their feet. We just look slow everywhere on the ice. Team slow. Our fast skaters never look fast, we don't move the puck fast, or well. We lose almost every battle because we are slower to get there. 

At some point, the d has to demonstrate that they can flip and pass the puck out of the zone, or skate it out. They can't consistently do either one, and the other team's pressure figures them out and forces them into doing dumb things.

[radoran]

6 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

At some point, the d has to demonstrate that they can flip and pass the puck out of the zone, or skate it out. They can't consistently do either one, and the other team's pressure figures them out and forces them into doing dumb things.

 

In fairness this is exactly what Ellis was expected to bring.

 

They are missing a Big Piece that was supposed to contribute.

 

That said, they had already moved Ellis off PP1 before the injury so the predictable, stationary, ineffective PP can't be put on his absence.

 

And, of course, you do need more than one D that can clear the zone effectively.

 

Could be that they kept the wrong one of Ghost and Sanheim...

[FD19372]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

Could be that they kept the wrong one of Ghost and Sanheim...

They kept the guy consistently caught out of position.. and let go of the one that gave the puck away, way too much. Neither of them, are what the team needs.

[SCFlyguy]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

The team may not be loaded with talent like some teams but the Flyers have enough good players. They should be  better than a .500 team, esp with the goaltending they're getting. But they're not scoring and both PP units struggle just to enter the zone cleanly. So what's the problem?

I would like some evidence that the Flyers have enough good players, because I don't see it.   Why should they be better than .500?  This team has been roughly .500 for a decade and continued to draft in the middle of the first round bar a couple of higher and lower picks.  Their picks always are sold as "complete" players who play a "200 ft game", yet we never end up with truly dynamic game changing players (please don't give me Farabee or Provorov or Konecny).

Edited November 24, 2021 by SCFlyguy

[FD19372]

2 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

I would like some evidence that the Flyers have enough good players, because I don't see it.   Why should they be better than .500?  This team has been roughly .500 for a decade and continued to draft in the middle of the first round bar a couple of higher and lower picks.  They're picks always are sold as "complete" players who play a "200 ft game", yet we never end up with truly dynamic game changing players (please don't give me Farabee or Provorov or Konecny).

The problem is they don't have enough good VETERAN players, so what do they do? Instead of getting more good veteran players, they rely more heavily on kids...particularly forwards, who aren't NHL ready. Some of it, I'm telling you...is organizational arrogance. They...management... would rather have a lineup filled with non-NHL ready kids, that THEY picked, then go outside of the organization for help to build this team to where it needs to be.

[FD19372]

Part of the problem I see also, is that the Flyer fanbase is filled with a bunch of idiots (not the majority). I just had a conversation with someone on another site where I recommended Farabee be sent down, and the Flyers get a veteran sniper. Oh, ya know, because he leads the team in goals, although he only has one in the last ten games. The guy was like...how dare you suggest he be sent down. No wonder Flyers management thinks they get a free pass.

Edited November 24, 2021 by FD19372

[radoran]

2 hours ago, FD19372 said:

would rather have a lineup filled with non-NHL ready kids

 

Who's "not NHL ready" exactly?

 

Farabee had 20 goals in 55 games last season (on pace for 30). Non NHL ready players don't score 20.

 

Konecny is a three time 24 goal scorer. Again, not something someone not ready for the NHL does.

 

Neither of them benefit from being sent down to the AHL.

 

The other top 6 wingers are Atkinson - a veteran from another team; JVR - a veteran who scored plenty in Tronno; and Giroux, who is certainly an established NHL player. Add Lindblom into the mix and you've got a guy who had one significant season and is trying to come back from a serious disease and may never be the same.

 

They have been running Brassard out there - a veteran from another team - precisely because Frost wasn't fit for the job yet. Laughton is a bottom six winger with little offensive upside. And their waiver wire pickups are just that - waiver wire pickups.

 

The only guy who isn't qualified to be in the NHL really from where I sit is Seeler, who is only here because the veteran they traded two prospects to another team to pick up is injured.

 

Thing is that impact veteran players simply don't come available all that often and the Flyers simply aren't the slam dunk home for top flight free agents they once were. And the big swing they made - Hayes - isn't the second line center they desperately need.

 

Moreover, you have to build from inside in this capped league. Having young players allows you to afford veterans.

 

The big issue from where I sit honestly is that the vets they've relied on just aren't good enough. And when the phillyosophy of the organization* is that being a middling bubble playoff team that "anything can happen" with is the goal you're going to be just that.

 

I really wish Ellis was playing. It would have helped a lot. Hell, even Hayes would have given them some stability. Both veterans from other teams.

 

We may get to see that team in 2022 but it remains to be seen how effective the guys coming off IR will be.

 

But the Flyers best players simply aren't competitive with the best players on teams like Tampa, Pittsburgh, Washington, Colorado or even Edmonton and Winnipeg. I know there will be those that cite this stat or that over whatever period of time and yadda yadda.

 

The results are what they are.

 

This has been a middling bubble team with aspirations of greatness for 10 years. And until they prove otherwise, that's really all they are.

[GratefulFlyers]

4 hours ago, Podein25 said:

I'm not sure I agree on the gaps being ok. Last night,

 

Ya you're right the gaps last night (and vs. Boston) were all over the place. Whatever 5 guys are out together none seem too sure what the others will do. I really don't see what AV is trying to do, what kind of team he thinks the Flyers should be. And I don't think the players have a clue either.

 

Provorov is one of too many examples. Provorov came into the league and impressed everybody. His potential to a big-time D-man was undeniable. Now, while he's still impressive he's also very inconsistent, especially offensively. You see it most on the PP, he's unsure what his role is. Oh I know they tell him "you're our QB" but what kind of work are they putting in to make it real? Whatever it is it's not enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Podein25]

1 minute ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

Ya you're right the gaps last night (and vs. Boston) were all over the place. Whatever 5 guys are out together none seem too sure what the others will do. I really don't see what AV is trying to do, what kind of team he thinks the Flyers should be. And I don't think the players have a clue either.

 

Provorov is one of too many examples. Provorov came into the league and impressed everybody. His potential to a big-time D-man was undeniable. Now, while he's still impressive he's also very inconsistent, especially offensively. You see it most on the PP, he's unsure what his role is. Oh I know they tell him "you're our QB" but what kind of work are they putting in to make it real? Whatever it is it's not enough.

 

 

Yeah, it's very concerning. He doesn't look as mobile as he used to.

 

Then again, none of our D look particularly mobile at present. Some of this is systemic: by the time they get the bloody puck they are too tired from chasing and can't skate it out. Imagine if we weren't a top 5 faceoff team, we'd be chasing even more! 

 

It's all so damn sad.

[GratefulFlyers]

8 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

Some of this is systemic: by the time they get the bloody puck they are too tired from chasing and can't skate it out.

 

Yep. The Flyers waste so many shifts in their own zone. It's no wonder guys aren't scoring. Defending wears you down and sucks the life out of you. It's so much more fun having the puck. The Flyers are in a bad way right now and it'll be tough to break out of it. Tonight may be bad...

 

It is sad - these guys are better than this. I don't know what AV is doing but whatever it is it ain't working.

[pilldoc]

57 minutes ago, radoran said:

And when the phillyosophy of the organization* is that being a middling bubble playoff team that "anything can happen" with is the goal you're going to be just that.

 

This is the point I was trying to make in the other thread that I just posted.  Though I went about it in a different way ....

[FD19372]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

Who's "not NHL ready" exactly?

 

Farabee had 20 goals in 55 games last season (on pace for 30). Non NHL ready players don't score 20.

 

Konecny is a three time 24 goal scorer. Again, not something someone not ready for the NHL does.

 

Neither of them benefit from being sent down to the AHL.

 

The other top 6 wingers are Atkinson - a veteran from another team; JVR - a veteran who scored plenty in Tronno; and Giroux, who is certainly an established NHL player. Add Lindblom into the mix and you've got a guy who had one significant season and is trying to come back from a serious disease and may never be the same.

 

They have been running Brassard out there - a veteran from another team - precisely because Frost wasn't fit for the job yet. Laughton is a bottom six winger with little offensive upside. And their waiver wire pickups are just that - waiver wire pickups.

 

The only guy who isn't qualified to be in the NHL really from where I sit is Seeler, who is only here because the veteran they traded two prospects to another team to pick up is injured.

 

Thing is that impact veteran players simply don't come available all that often and the Flyers simply aren't the slam dunk home for top flight free agents they once were. And the big swing they made - Hayes - isn't the second line center they desperately need.

 

Moreover, you have to build from inside in this capped league. Having young players allows you to afford veterans.

 

The big issue from where I sit honestly is that the vets they've relied on just aren't good enough. And when the phillyosophy of the organization* is that being a middling bubble playoff team that "anything can happen" with is the goal you're going to be just that.

 

I really wish Ellis was playing. It would have helped a lot. Hell, even Hayes would have given them some stability. Both veterans from other teams.

 

We may get to see that team in 2022 but it remains to be seen how effective the guys coming off IR will be.

 

But the Flyers best players simply aren't competitive with the best players on teams like Tampa, Pittsburgh, Washington, Colorado or even Edmonton and Winnipeg. I know there will be those that cite this stat or that over whatever period of time and yadda yadda.

 

The results are what they are.

 

This has been a middling bubble team with aspirations of greatness for 10 years. And until they prove otherwise, that's really all they are.

Farabee might be on pace for 30, but he has ONE point in ten games. That is more than a little concerning. TK has a little more experience and more depth to his game when he's not scoring, so I have a hunch he'll get it together more quickly than Farabee.

[radoran]

Just now, FD19372 said:

Farabee might be on pace for 30, but he has ONE point in ten games. That is more than a little concerning. TK has a little more experience and more depth to his game when he's not scoring, so I have a hunch he'll get it together more quickly than Farabee.

 

I get that, but that's not to say they're "not ready."

 

Atkinson has three points in 10+ games. Couturier has two.

 

They effectively don't have a second line center. We'll see how Frost does in the role.