Still Too Soon To Call?: Top Excuses For Flyers Being Bad

[Podein25]

9 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I don't think it's the system. It's the players.

 

They simply haven't been good enough. And 10 of them are already signed for next season with at least two more "likely" (Giroux, Ristolainen).

 

Seven of them are signed for the next three seasons...

 

So, you're telling me there's a chance I finally get the call? Noice!

 

[pilldoc]

11 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

Do you really think that's true though?

 

Yes!

 

13 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

I never thought much of Holmgren but 80s hockey? If anything, this team we have is kind of soft. They definitely aren't caught up in some sort of dated idea.

 

There is a clear way of thinking about holding players accountable or not holding them accountable.  Its the or-gani-zation philosophy I'm talking about.  This organization has for years, with a few exceptions, never really played youngsters when they are talented enough to play with the big club.  (This also stems from the fact that they have no idea on how to properly develop rookies/younger players.) This topic has been beaten to death in other threads. 

 

For years many draft picks have been spent on the power forward who can muck and grind it out.  That may have worked years ago back in the 80's and 90's, but the NHL game has changed to players who can skate and score.  Who on this team is a legitimate goal scorer who is a pure sniper and not afraid to shoot the damn puck.  Currently there is not single Flyer in the top 25 for SOG.  The first Flyer is Giroux sitting at #34 with 54 SOG.  You don't score if you don't shoot the puck.  The Flyers have always been an offensive cycling team, trying to find the pretty shot.  It does not work that way anymore and the top FO Brass have refused to adapt to the new NHL.    As a team the Flyers currently rank #18 with SOG.  There are exactly 3 teams who shoot the puck less and have more points than the Flyers. (Rangers / Preds / Blue Jackets). 

This team simply drafts players who do not shoot the puck .... The organizational philosophy is cycling the puck but as I mentioned before that has become outdated in today's NHL.  That goes back to the FO Brass.

 

34 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

They play speed and possession like everybody else.

 

Yes they are slowly drafting players with better skating skills, but the NHL started changing years ago and the Flyers failed to adapt.  Again that goes towards the FO mentality.

 

39 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

They just can't score goals.

 

So are the players snake bitten yet again ....(sounds like a broken record year after year) or are the fans and the FO simply overvaluing players?  It's an honest question.  Every bloody year we discuss the same damn things over and over.  Its quite maddening to be honest. Which leads to your other point ......

 

44 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

I personally think it's AV's system. Unless you're going to change the players they need to open this thing up with the guys they have. 

 

Again, coaching has been discussed ad-nauseaum on here.   We bitched and moaned about Hak.  We bitched and moaned about Berube. Gordon gets a pass simply because he was labeled as an interim coach only.  Lavy was the last coach that I remember that this team could really open it up, but then he had a complete different roster than what we have today.  AV had his first season interrupted by Covid and his 2nd season a shortened by Covid.    We keep blaming coaches systems, but when do we actually start putting the blame on players.  Is it because they are just not good enough to be a Championship caliber team?

 

You make some valid points, but the one constant is the good ole boys of the FO Brass.

[elmatus]

On 11/24/2021 at 5:38 PM, pilldoc said:

when do we actually start putting the blame on players.  Is it because they are just not good enough to be a Championship caliber team?

 

Yeah, I really think this is the only truly rational conclusion at this point. Now, I'm not sure I really blame the players either. I think they're doing the best with the tools they have. My position is just that I don't think they have the tools in the first place. 

 

AV is a fine coach. He's had plenty of success. I agree with the idea that if anyone is to blame, the brass and org seem the most logical candidates after ten years of a rebuild that never seems to end. The team isn't a vacuum either. This long period of irrelevance is not endemic to the whole league. There are absolutely teams who have found ways to be relevant over that entire timeframe and even more.

 

What do they have that we don't? To take the most prominent examples: Why is it that Pittsburgh, Washington, Tampa Bay, and Boston have been contenders basically every single year for the same decade? Obviously, they haven't always won in that span, but they're always a legit threat. Cut the decade in half, and you can easily add another 2-3 teams to that list. So what's the deal?

Edited November 26, 2021 by elmatus

[FD19372]

46 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Why is it that Pittsburgh, Washington, Tampa Bay, and Boston have been contenders basically every single year for the same decade?

They all have had superstar players and leaders. We don't. I think that's what it boils down to...and an egotistical ownership group that is more interested in trying to get blood from a stone (Giroux), and win with him when it's not possible with him as their best scoring forward, than they are in truly winning a Cup. He cannot be the best player on your hockey team if you want to win a Cup.

Edited November 26, 2021 by FD19372

[SCFlyguy]

7 hours ago, elmatus said:

after ten years of a rebuild that never seems to end.

The Flyers haven’t rebuilt over the last 10 years.  Hextall tried to be competitive while getting the team out of cap hell.

 

Rebuild would have been trade Giroux 5 years ago for a boatload of picks.  Trade Simmons in his prime for young prospects.  Trade Couts instead of resigning him.

 

This franchise won’t accept any narrative except we are competing for a Cup.

[radoran]

1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said:

This franchise won’t accept any narrative except we are competing for a Cup.

 

This is the fundamental problem.

 

They've been laser focused on competing for a Cup and the franchise has won one playoff round in a decade.

 

Chasing the dragon...

[Fizz]

On 11/24/2021 at 2:29 PM, GrittyForever said:

Do you really think that's true though? I never thought much of Holmgren but 80s hockey? If anything, this team we have is kind of soft. They definitely aren't caught up in some sort of dated idea. They play speed and possession like everybody else. They definitely don't pound people around or play overly physical. They just can't score goals. 

I personally think it's AV's system. Unless you're going to change the players they need to open this thing up with the guys they have. 

Been saying that for a couple years. He refuses to change his coaching style to match his players, and his style of players are gone from the league like the dinosaurs from earth.

This team goes no ware till AV and his minions are gone.

[SCFlyguy]

You think we replace AV and this current roster is a contending team?  I think that's insane.

 

I have no allegiance to AV, but the roster and the entire system is devoid of talent.  An out-of-warranty Giroux with 160k miles is still our best player.

[ruxpin]

4 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

You think we replace AV and this current roster is a contending team?  I think that's insane.

 

I have no allegiance to AV, but the roster and the entire system is devoid of talent.  An out-of-warranty Giroux with 160k miles is still our best player.

The sums it up quite well.

 

 

[Howie58]

Reason XX:

 

Gritty is a distraction.  He is fun and "nice."  That puts lipstick on the pig.  It resonates with kids.  That allows management to forget about the bottom line--winning.  

 

I say this half seriously, and half tongue-in-cheek.  

[SCFlyguy]

Woah, let's not go crazy.

[flyercanuck]

We don't have to be any good....we have slogans!

[flyer4ever]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

We don't have to be any good....we have slogans!

I don't know what the slogans are, but Im guessing they too are 

bad to mediocre. 

[radoran]

23 hours ago, Howie58 said:

It resonates with kids. 

 

Virtually no one under the age of 20 has any real personal recollection of a competitive hockey franchise in Philadelphia.

 

At best, it's that time when they made the Final and "won the trades" getting rid of the guys they had just signed to long term contracts to be the foundation of the franchise.

 

One of them is finishing up that contract in Pittsburgh rightnow.

 

Flyers are apparently selling about 90% of capacity down at the Big Bank Building, to fans who bought the line that they had "one of the best rosters in the NHL" - before they gutted that roster over the offseason.

 

COVID may play some role, but that's the lowest fill % in the league until Detroit at 19th (86.1%) and one of the few areas where they are competitive with Carolina (90.8%).

 

Six teams are 100+%, six more are 96+%. That includes "not hockey markets" Tampa Bay, Dallas, and Las Vegas. "Not hockey market" Nashville is selling 99.8%.

[Howie58]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Virtually no one under the age of 20 has any real personal recollection of a competitive hockey franchise in Philadelphia.

 

At best, it's that time when they made the Final and "won the trades" getting rid of the guys they had just signed to long term contracts to be the foundation of the franchise.

 

One of them is finishing up that contract in Pittsburgh rightnow.

 

Flyers are apparently selling about 90% of capacity down at the Big Bank Building, to fans who bought the line that they had "one of the best rosters in the NHL" - before they gutted that roster over the offseason.

 

COVID may play some role, but that's the lowest fill % in the league until Detroit at 19th (86.1%) and one of the few areas where they are competitive with Carolina (90.8%).

 

Six teams are 100+%, six more are 96+%. That includes "not hockey markets" Tampa Bay, Dallas, and Las Vegas. "Not hockey market" Nashville is selling 99.8%.

Rad:  The attendance figures are no surprise.  The adults are getting understandably alienated (I guess that's a good term).  Yeah, maybe he was a pain in the ass, but Snider was driven.  As a semi-Old Fart, I think of the '03-'04 Semi against TB as the last hurrah of Old-Time Flyers Hockey.  The '10 SCF was a fluke.  We have been wandering through the desert for a decade plus.  

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

The attendance figures are no surprise.

 

They are not. But 98% sold and fewer butts in seats was a significant factor in them canning Hextall.

[pilldoc]

1 minute ago, Howie58 said:

The '10 SCF was a fluke.

 

^^^ This x100

 

I know we all loved it at the time, but most of us realized what a fluke it was and the roster should have been properly gutted but no ...they just kept saying we are only a player away .....

 

Yes...before anyone torches me, I enjoyed the run that year.  Some of us who where around on the old Silly.com forum had a great time that spring......However, must of us also knew knew the serious flaws that team had.  To this day in NHL history the Flyers are the only #7 seed team to be the home team for the Conference Finals.

[Howie58]

6 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

^^^ This x100

 

I know we all loved it at the time, but most of us realized what a fluke it was and the roster should have been properly gutted but no ...they just kept saying we are only a player away .....

 

Yes...before anyone torches me, I enjoyed the run that year.  Some of us who where around on the old Silly.com forum had a great time that spring......However, must of us also knew knew the serious flaws that team had.  To this day in NHL history the Flyers are the only #7 seed team to be the home team for the Conference Finals.

The 2008 Conference Final was another fluke that made us feel good, but that team was built on the fly and gave us little sustained excellence.  Homer copped a GM award for his work, but in retrospect, it was a blurb after our '06-'07 disaster.  There were no long-term cigars...

[OccamsRazor]

13 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

The '10 SCF was a fluke. 

 

I don't think it was a fluke that team skated and competed. Bad luck in the crease for real.

 

They were set back by moves they made with the goalie of the future.

 

I will always wonder what if they just kept Bob, Richy, Crater and Simon could they have had another shot at it all we'll never know i guess....maybe kept that band together longer...bourbon talking...

 

[ruxpin]

5 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I don't think it was a fluke that team skated and competed. Bad luck in the crease for real.

 

They were set back by moves they made with the goalie of the future.

 

I will always wonder what if they just kept Bob, Richy, Crater and Simon could they have had another shot at it all we'll never know i guess....maybe kept that band together longer...bourbon talking...

 

Pass the bourbon here.

 

I think it's safe to say things could not have gone worse had we kept them.  At least at first. But I think the team would have been viable for a couple more seasons.

 

I tend to be in the "2010 was a fluke" crowd.  But that doesn't mean they couldn't have fluked again.

[radoran]

39 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I think it's safe to say things could not have gone worse had we kept them.  At least at first. But I think the team would have been viable for a couple more seasons.

 

Pending how "the next Bobby Clarke" dealt with his addiction...

 

They had Richards, Crater, AND Giroux. Giroux spends his career as a playmaking wing with an A. Richards and Crater at bargain prices in a called world.

 

Bob comes in as goalie.

 

Maybe Pronger and Bryzgalov don't happen.

 

With any luck they don't bite on MacDonald.

 

I think it's fair to say things are different, likely better...

Edited November 30, 2021 by radoran

[ruxpin]

8 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Pending how "the next Bobby Clarke" dealt with his addiction...

 

They had Richards, Crater, AND Giroux. Giroux spends his career as a playmaking wing with an A. Richards and Crater at bargain prices in a called world.

 

Bob comes in as goalie.

 

Maybe Pronger and Bryzgalov don't happen.

 

With any luck they don't bite on MacDonald.

 

I think it's fair to say things are different, likely better...

 

 

 I don't know. But I would have liked that campaign. If my friend Andy Shepherd had shown up, I would have liked that campaign very much.

[SCFlyguy]

On 11/24/2021 at 7:52 AM, SCFlyguy said:

When posters complained in the offseason about management (Scott, Holmgren, Fletcher) and the moves that Fletcher made, some said it was too soon to call whether the Flyers would be good.  We're now nearly 25% of the way through the season.  In honor of this tradition, this thread is for listing your excuses why the Flyers are bad.  I'll get us started:

1. Old Man Ellis caught the LBI working in the holler and things ain't been the same.
2. Injuries to .59ppg $7M Hollywood Hayes.  This was still a good signing.
3. It's an odd year, so Provorov is bad.  Next year he will be good.  Wait, he was bad last year.  Doesn't matter, he's still a #1 D.
4. AV.
5. Mike Yeo is not good at doing whatever he does.  PK, PP, Player Development, Mixing AV's Martinis, I forget.
6. They aren't tough enough.  I remember when Dave Brown. . . .zzzzzzzzzzzz.
7. Not enough youth/not enough vets.
8. They don't play hard enough/they don't care enough.  You know, what every fan says about their team instead of admitting they weren't that good.
9. Still Jake Voracek's fault.  Dr. Fletcher removed most of the locker room cancer, but it had spread to others.
10. Won't move G to Center/Playing people out of position.
11. Won't let Ghost be Ghost.  Oh yeah, he's gone.
12. [JVR/Sanheim] is soft.

Feel free to add your own!

Now that we're over one-third of the way through the season, I'm updating some of the excuses above that have been disproven by this point.

 

#8 should have been #1.  If I had $1 for every time someone used that one this season  . . . .

[flyer4ever]

I think all of the upper management staff received their Christmas bonuses. They are right where they strive to be. Mediocre.

[LegionOfDoom]

"Tuffness"

 

Ever since we traded away Rinaldo, our toughness boat sprung a leak. Simmonds was the last whole that sunk the ship.

 

We now have Risto, if we can get Morin back in the roster.

 

Or we can feed our roster corn and douse it with Da Bomb hot sauce, and have them exude with high energy and Heat Anger, when they hit the ice.

                                                                                                            Fixed.