A Call to Trade Giroux and Go to Rebuild

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

I normally wouldn't post an Inquirer piece from Sam Carchidi given his "polarizing" status, but it appears he has taken a lead from this board:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nhl/its-time-for-flyers-to-trade-claude-giroux-and-go-into-full-rebuild-mode/ar-AARgxj4

 

The current losing streak raises some painful questions about our players, coaches, and management.  On face, we had a pre-Covid bright spot but may be slipping into an abyss.  Coming from an "insider" who is part of almost every post-game presser with AV, there's some candor and courage I might not expect. 

[flyercanuck]

If Fletcher trades Giroux he may as well hand in his resignation. He's gone all in with his idiotic long term signing of Hayes, trading of picks/players for soon to be signed too long Ristolainen, more picks/players for signed for too long Ellis. He brought in old man Yandle (he of ZERO points in his last 17 games) to replace the guy he gave away along with draft picks Shayne Gostisbehere (who LEADS his team in scoring). He brought in old man Brassard. And old man Braun. And old man Atkinson. And older man Thompson. Who all looked like great pickups...for 5 games. Sadly the season is 82 games long and most of these guys are almost done. 

 

Nobody saw this coming. Oh,wait....lots of us did.

 

 Blow it up. But first you need a gm capable of a rebuild. And Chuckie is NOT that guy. 

[Howie58]

4 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

If Fletcher trades Giroux he may as well hand in his resignation. He's gone all in with his idiotic long term signing of Hayes, trading of picks/players for soon to be signed too long Ristolainen, more picks/players for signed for too long Ellis. He brought in old man Yandle (he of ZERO points in his last 17 games) to replace the guy he gave away along with draft picks Shayne Gostisbehere (who LEADS his team in scoring). He brought in old man Brassard. And old man Braun. And old man Atkinson. And older man Thompson. Who all looked like great pickups...for 5 games. Sadly the season is 82 games long and most of these guys are almost done. 

 

Nobody saw this coming. Oh,wait....lots of us did.

 

 Blow it up. But first you need a gm capable of a rebuild. And Chuckie is NOT that guy. 

Dear FC:  That is quite a post.  Yeah, it is painful.  

[Howie58]

BTW, I'd go with either of Keikolainen's assistants as our new GM.  I have faith in their strategy and execution.  

 

Howie

[radoran]

33 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

He brought in old man Yandle (he of ZERO points in his last 17 games) to replace the guy he gave away along with draft picks Shayne Gostisbehere (who LEADS his team in scoring).

 

In fairness, Yandle was an insurance policy, not a Ghost replacement. That was supposed to be Ellis.

 

Brassard was also not supposed to be the second line center, that was supposed to be Hayes.

 

You may not like either - I like Ellis and never thought Hayes was the second line center they needed. But they weren't "the plan."

 

As you know I'm no fan of ol' Fletch and it does seem that he's mortgaged the team into a slightly higher middling bubble playoff team for the next 3-5 years.

 

I'll never understand the Ristolainen deal(s) and I actually like the player. I'll take Atkinson over Voracek because I was just DONE with Jake.

 

But the point is that they really can't "blow it up". No one's going to take them. And they're so far down the Giroux rabbit hole that they can't see out. He is going to be re-signed and they are going to be all sorts of giggly when they do.

 

And they'll maybe wind up with an all time leading scorer who got out of the first round once as captain.

 

Hall of Fame.

 

They've shown no aptitude for dealing with the capped world they forced upon themselves.

 

They need to clean house in the E Suite before anything is going to change. And fully clean house from Dave "hockey guy" Scott on down. This is a gut renovation that will likely start in 3-5 years unless Comcast cuts bait sooner.

 

And they really might...

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

I normally wouldn't post an Inquirer piece from Sam Carchidi given his "polarizing" status, but it appears he has taken a lead from this board:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nhl/its-time-for-flyers-to-trade-claude-giroux-and-go-into-full-rebuild-mode/ar-AARgxj4

 

The current losing streak raises some painful questions about our players, coaches, and management.  On face, we had a pre-Covid bright spot but may be slipping into an abyss.  Coming from an "insider" who is part of almost every post-game presser with AV, there's some candor and courage I might not expect. 

While we are at it unload Coots too. If you look at it realistically,  a rising playoff team that needs a veteran to put them over the top  might make a trade for G or Coots .  A team taking on G’s contract at the deadline would not kill their cap, so it’s definitely something we could do. I think he would drop the NTC for a shot at the Cup. He could still be an UFA after the playoffs and go where he wants. Coots would definitely get us the best return of any player on our team but he has a big contract coming, so that might be an off-season move. If we trade both that would probably get us 4 or 5 assets coming back . Thats the quickest way to rebuild. Nobody wants JVR and Hayes worthless ,nobody will want him. 

[flyercanuck]

29 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

In fairness, Yandle was an insurance policy, not a Ghost replacement. That was supposed to be Ellis.

 

 Fair enough...they have the same amount of points.

 

29 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Brassard was also not supposed to be the second line center, that was supposed to be Hayes.

 

 True, but doesn't make Brassard any younger. 

 

29 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

You may not like either - I like Ellis and never thought Hayes was the second line center they needed. But they weren't "the plan."

 

 I "like" Ellis. I don't like his contract.

 

29 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

As you know I'm no fan of ol' Fletch and it does seem that he's mortgaged the team into a slightly higher middling bubble playoff team for the next 3-5 years.

 

 Going "all in" to squeak into the playoffs just seems like something a really lame GM would do. So ya, he did. 

 

29 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I'll never understand the Ristolainen deal(s) and I actually like the player. I'll take Atkinson over Voracek because I was just DONE with Jake.

 

 Ristolainen for a 2nd rounder would be fine by me. Not for the boatload he gave up for him. And certainly not for the inevitable incoming contract of stupidity we all know is on the horizon.

 

29 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

But the point is that they really can't "blow it up". No one's going to take them. And they're so far down the Giroux rabbit hole that they can't see out. He is going to be re-signed and they are going to be all sorts of giggly when they do.

 

And they'll maybe wind up with an all time leading scorer who got out of the first round once as captain.

 

Hall of Fame.

 

They've shown no aptitude for dealing with the capped world they forced upon themselves.

 

They need to clean house in the E Suite before anything is going to change. And fully clean house from Dave "hockey guy" Scott on down. This is a gut renovation that will likely start in 3-5 years unless Comcast cuts bait sooner.

 

 Preaching to the choir my friend.

 

29 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

And they really might...

 

 Please. Oh god please!

[radoran]

1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

Going "all in" to squeak into the playoffs just seems like something a really lame GM would do. So ya, he did. 

 

Yeah I'm not here to defend ol' Fletch or the brain trust* of the organization* that hired him.

 

But I would have liked to see what this roster was able to do from the jump. For better or worse I wanted to give Giroux a chance.

 

It just seems like he's destined to be a Mats Sundin.

 

[Fizz]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

If Fletcher trades Giroux he may as well hand in his resignation. He's gone all in with his idiotic long term signing of Hayes, trading of picks/players for soon to be signed too long Ristolainen, more picks/players for signed for too long Ellis. He brought in old man Yandle (he of ZERO points in his last 17 games) to replace the guy he gave away along with draft picks Shayne Gostisbehere (who LEADS his team in scoring). He brought in old man Brassard. And old man Braun. And old man Atkinson. And older man Thompson. Who all looked like great pickups...for 5 games. Sadly the season is 82 games long and most of these guys are almost done. 

 

Nobody saw this coming. Oh,wait....lots of us did.

 

 Blow it up. But first you need a gm capable of a rebuild. And Chuckie is NOT that guy. 

In what bizarro world is Hayes worth the kind of money Fletcher signed him for?

For that move alone Fletcher should be fired.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, Fizz said:

In what bizarro world is Hayes worth the kind of money Fletcher signed him for?

For that move alone Fletcher should be fired.

Yes.

 

Though that and subsequent moves were pretty much Holmgren moves.   Either directly or under his direction.

 

HOF, my a##

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, Fizz said:

In what bizarro world is Hayes worth the kind of money Fletcher signed him for?

For that move alone Fletcher should be fired.

By the way, the previous post wasn't intended to absolve Fletcher.   He was terrible in Minnesota and some of screamed he'd be terrible here.  He hasn't disappointed.

 

But he does have L'incompétent demanding and pulling strings behind him.  Same guy who had a temper tantrum because the last guy wouldn't listen to his stupidity.

 

HOF,  my a##

Edited November 30, 2021 by ruxpin

[Mad Dog]

Oh boy... So Giroux is *the* problem now, eh?  Look... the team is a mess right now; it's hard to argue the point.  And honestly speaking, I don't see a way out of it.  But they are looking in wrong places.  The Flyers have an idiot of a GM, who can give both Clarkie and Homer a run for their money.  Atkonson for Jake... Ok.  I don't have much of an issue for trade.  But that's where it stops with me. Everything else he did turned out to be dumb, meaningless, void of any logic moves.  But yeah, let's trade Giroux.  That will get this team out of the hole they are in right now.

[GratefulFlyers]

The only way out of this mess is to deal assets and take pennies on the dollar, probably retain some salary too. To really start over you have to deal the overpriced hacks and that's Hayes and JVR. Those 2 are the priorities. Paying them not to play in the O&B will suck for awhile but it's better than them paying them to play in the O&B.

 

4 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

But yeah, let's trade Giroux.  That will get this team out of the hole they are in right now.

 

I hear ya. I'm a Giroux fan too but he can't expect big money again from the Flyers. Re-sign him at $7.5 over 3 years (no longer), something like that, and let him play wing where he's got plenty of points left in him. I know I'm dreaming; that's a huge pay cut. But if he's really the team player...I mean jeez he must have tons of money saved by now.

 

Deal the rest of the dead wood; Yandle, Thompson, Braun, Ellis...Ristolainen keep for $9mil over 3 years. Of course he'll want more, let him test FA. I like what he brings but not for $5.4/year.

 

The biggest hurdle to building an NHL team they already solved: they got Carter Hart and he's the cornerstone. But the Flyers can't waste his best years with Hayes and JVR taking up air and space, Ellis forever injured...etc. Rebuild time is now while Hart, Provorov, Farabee, Konecny - even Laugton -are still young and hungry. And keep Zach MacEwen dammit. He's a born Flyer!

 

 

[ruxpin]

34 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

Oh boy... So Giroux is *the* problem now, eh?  Look... the team is a mess right now; it's hard to argue the point.  And honestly speaking, I don't see a way out of it.  But they are looking in wrong places.  The Flyers have an idiot of a GM, who can give both Clarkie and Homer a run for their money.  Atkonson for Jake... Ok.  I don't have much of an issue for trade.  But that's where it stops with me. Everything else he did turned out to be dumb, meaningless, void of any logic moves.  But yeah, let's trade Giroux.  That will get this team out of the hole they are in right now.

It's sadly like the Eagles.

 

So, trading Giroux for picks and prospects seems like the way to go except that you have Chuckles de Flücker picking the prospects and making the picks. He'd probably trade for a 30 yr old with a 6 year term, anyway.

 

Birds are the same.  Trade players for picks except the guy drafting couldn't pick a winner with both hands up his ###.

 

[mojo1917]

I think the projected quality of the next 2 drafts means if this fire sale were to happen  now is the time. 

This team looks slow and  demoralized right now after spending most of last season looking the same. 

Blow it up. 

Max out on picks, suck enough to draft difference makers. 

They're there in the near future.

I want the team to have an identity that isn't monkey ****** a football. 

[radoran]

1 hour ago, Mad Dog said:

Oh boy... So Giroux is *the* problem now, eh? 

 

Giroux is not *the* problem, but he's also not not a problem.

 

If your best player just isn't as good as the best players on other teams, that's not not a problem.

 

People suggesting that they move Giroux are looking to start a tear down rebuild with whatever they could get back for him.

 

That's not the worst idea in the world. I do not expect it to happen.

 

And that's reflective of the underlying problem in the E Suite.

[radoran]

8 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Blow it up. 

 

Hey @mojo1917 someone is using your login.

 

[GratefulFlyers]

Unfortunately we're probably just pissing in a river - we die-hard Flyers fans. They're not going to do a rebuild it's just not in the Flyers' DNA. Comcast, sacrifice now for a shot at the ultimate prize later? What are we on glue? Comcast cares about profits not the Stanley Cup. I doubt any of their execs knows the captain's name or where the Flyers played last night.

 

Anyway like others have said do we really want to rebuild with Fletcher running the show? We may just have to hope they come together somehow - before they're completely out of the PO picture that is. And then hey, Anything Can Happen™

[RonJeremy]

8 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

Oh boy... So Giroux is *the* problem now, eh?  Look... the team is a mess right now; it's hard to argue the point.  And honestly speaking, I don't see a way out of it.  But they are looking in wrong places.  The Flyers have an idiot of a GM, who can give both Clarkie and Homer a run for their money.  Atkonson for Jake... Ok.  I don't have much of an issue for trade.  But that's where it stops with me. Everything else he did turned out to be dumb, meaningless, void of any logic moves.  But yeah, let's trade Giroux.  That will get this team out of the hole they are in right now.

The reason you trade Giroux is because the team is finished. Sure he has been our best player, but he is up there in age and we need to get assets to rebuild, so Giroux does not fit into the future of this team and since we have no chance to win now, so you move your most valuable assets. To me, that’s Giroux and Coots.

[Mad Dog]

9 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Giroux is not *the* problem, but he's also not not a problem.

 

If your best player just isn't as good as the best players on other teams, that's not not a problem.

Fair enough.  I think the most accurate way to put it: while he is not the problem, he isn't being much of a solution, either.  One can wonder though, how much one player can do... It's almost like when a ship is caught in a 185 miles-per-hour sea storm, how much can one expect the captain to save the vessel from a sea wreckage?  The way this team was built is an absolute nightmare.  They have no pieces.  We were counting on Konecny.  He is a non-factor, and that's putting it nicely. Atkinson has also disappointed. Maybe some people didn't expect much from him, but I did.  The guy is capable of scoring.  Only 3 years ago, he scored 69 points and 41 goals in Columbus. In 2016, he scored 62 points.

 

And while we are at it, let's not leave our $26M man Couturier out of it. I was at the Carolina game last Friday and specifically focused on him.  The guy looks lost.  Plain lost.  I don't know what his problem is.  If it was playoffs, I would think he is playing injured and they are just not telling us.  But physically, he looked perfectly fine to me.  But he looks unmotivated and just like he doesn't know what to do out there.  He looks a shadow of what he was in the last 2 years.  I would say he *almost* plays the way he was playing in his rookie year.  It's plain scary to watch him pay these days.

 

I mean if Giroux ends up getting traded, it will probably not be because of his poor play.  It will be a beginning of rebuilding process.  I get it.  But I am pissed how incompetent and ineffective Fletcher is.  I was mad at Hextall, but at least I could see what he was doing.  There was a structure in his work.  One can say it had flaws, but it least I could follow what he was doing.  What this current moron is doing - I have no clue.  And the worst part yet - it doesn't look like he does, either.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Mad Dog

[Tomdog]

Giroux is not your problem, he is the indicator of your problem. 
Chuck Fletcher is your problem, start over from the top down. 
look at what Minnesota did with a good GM. 

[Mad Dog]

19 minutes ago, Tomdog said:

Giroux is not your problem, he is the indicator of your problem. 
Chuck Fletcher is your problem, start over from the top down. 
look at what Minnesota did with a good GM. 

 The minute they replaced him with Hextall, I knew right away this was going to be a disaster... not that Hexy was anything special.

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, Mad Dog said:

Fair enough.  I think the most accurate way to put it: while he is not the problem, he isn't being much of a solution, either.  One can wonder though, how much one player can do... It's almost like when a ship is caught in a 185 miles-per-hour sea storm, how much can one expect the captain to save the vessel from a sea wreckage?  The way this team was built is an absolute nightmare.  They have no pieces.  We were counting on Konecny.  He is a non-factor, and that's putting it nicely. Atkinson has also disappointed. Maybe some people didn't expect much from him, but I did.  The guy is capable of scoring.  Only 3 years ago, he scored 69 points and 41 goals in Columbus. In 2016, he scored 62 points.

 

And while we are at it, let's not leave our $26M man Couturier out of it. I was at the Carolina game last Friday and specifically focused on him.  The guy looks lost.  Plain lost.  I don't know what his problem is.  If it was playoffs, I would think he is playing injured and they are just not telling us.  But physically, he looked perfectly fine to me.  But he looks unmotivated and just like he doesn't know what to do out there.  He looks a shadow of what he was in the last 2 years.  I would say he *almost* plays the way he was playing in his rookie year.  It's plain scary to watch him pay these days.

 

I mean if Giroux ends up getting traded, it will probably not be because of his poor play.  It will be a beginning of rebuilding process.  I get it.  But I am pissed how incompetent and ineffective Fletcher is.  I was mad at Hextall, but at least I could see what he was doing.  There was a structure in his work.  One can say it had flaws, but it least I could follow what he was doing.  What this current moron is doing - I have no clue.  And the worst part yet - it doesn't look like he does, either.

He won't be traded due to his poor play, he will be traded because he is actually playing well. Other than  Coots or Farabee everyone else  is mediocre.  Someone said let's trade all the stiffs like Thompson Yandle, etc. Nobody wants them and what do you think your return will be.. a 6th round pick? How does that help a rebuild?. G will get us a nice return , so will Coots, you don't keep old players with high contracts around for a rebuild unless your stuck with them.

[Digityman]

 

By now it's clear that in a 7 game series, the Flyers will definitely not win against Carolina, Caps, Toronto, Florida, Tampa or Boston and probably not against the Rangers.  That puts the Cup out of reach so what should be the goal of this season?   They don't need experience for the young kids because the Flyer have a top 5 oldest roster in the NHL.   (I didn't believe it either until I looked).   

 

I think once Hayes/Ellis and the rest of the injured come back, you'll see them start to pick it back up.  Something like win 2, lose 1.   Just enough to put them within grasp of the wildcard spot which will make them stand pat.   I'm not saying that's what I want them to do but what I think they will do.

 

However, as @mojo1917 said, the next 2 drafts are looking pretty good.  While I personally don't think Giroux is the problem, he might help fix it.   It's pretty clear by now that he can't carry a team on his back, so he helps more by the value he would get in return.  It will be a sad day to see him leave, but unfortunately it's time - this is the first time I remember feeling this way.   If they do keep floundering it makes even clearer that trading him at the deadline is the right move.  

 

1 hour ago, Mad Dog said:

let's not leave our $26M man Couturier out of it

 

Don't look now but Couturier is 28, maybe it's time to see what offers are out there.    While we are at it.... JVR & Hayes

So can the combination of Giroux, Couturier, JVR and/or Hayes in combination of the kids coming up, fill the holes?

 

? - ? - Atkinson

Farabee - ? - Konecny 

Lindblom - Frost - Allison

? - Laughton - MacEwen

---Wisdom, Foerster, Ratcliffe

 

Provorov - Ellis

Sanheim - Ristolainen(?)

York - ? 

---Zamula, Morin (ha)

 

Hart

Jones

---Ersson, Ustimenko, Sandstrom

 

At least during this rebuild, they would have they most important position filled already.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Digityman

[mojo1917]

10 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Hey @mojo1917 someone is using your login.

 

No.

It should be clear to anyone watching that the team lacks something, talent, speed, grit...all of these things at the moment. 

What move can be made in season to change the dynamic/momentum. 

LITR Hayes, trade someone, for someone else. Try to stay in the hunt?

Then buy out a pile of contracts in the off season?

This mostly same group of dudes played pretty well for AV for a time, but that feels like a long time ago. 

Seems like a long shot with what appears to be a 2nd team wide slump in a calendar year. 

 

Also a point about Giroux, as part of an ensemble he could have had success, he was never going to be better than Crosby and the true generational talents, he punched way over his weight for a long time. A better supporting cast could have yielded better results.

Now that he's 34 and still the best player on this team says more bad things about the team around him than him IMO.  The young guys who were supposed to take the mantle and push 28 down the line up aren't.

Maybe they won't so why not, blow it up?

Our young guys are just guys apparently, get all the picks and expiring contracts you can.

 

 

The time to do it would be now, before Hextall trades Crosby or Malkin for all the first-round picks.