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A Call to Trade Giroux and Go to Rebuild


Howie58

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1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

Someone said let's trade all the stiffs like Thompson Yandle, etc. Nobody wants them and what do you think your return will be.. a 6th round pick? How does that help a rebuild?.

 

I said once you deal Hayes and JVR you dump the stiffs. You're right of course the only players who will fetch a nice return are Giroux and Couturier (assuming you keep Konec, Prov, Fara and Hart (and Zach!)). But Yandle, Thompson and Braun will net something from a PO-bound team looking for depth.

 

The impossibly hard ones are obviously Hayes and JVR. It'd prob mean firing Fletcher - GMs don't generally admit screwing up so badly by trading the Big Name Guy they signed for $50mil/7 years.

 

But I just don't see how you rebuild w/out unloading those 2. Their cap hits are huge for what you get, which of course everyone knows, so you retain some salary and get screwed on the return. I still say it's worth it to lose those 2.

 

[edit: in other words the way many of you were writing about Voracek - that nothing good can possibly happen till he's gone...that's how I see Hayes and JVR. Fletcher too.

 

While I'm dreaming of a Fletcher-free Flyers let me also wish that Ellis gets traded too. I know I know... but the reality of his contract and Hayes' contract - and JVR just being there - that reality really sucks. A dream is all I got left for the Flyers.]

 

Edited by GratefulFlyers
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All I can say if they just fire AV, and don't make a major trade today...I'm done. I'm shutting down my Philadelphia Flyers interest for the season. There is apparently a Chuck Fletcher press conference scheduled for shortly, I think around noon today.

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2 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

let's not leave our $26M man Couturier out of it. I was at the Carolina game last Friday and specifically focused on him.  The guy looks lost.  Plain lost.  I don't know what his problem is.  If it was playoffs, I would think he is playing injured and they are just not telling us.

 

Yes I've been saying this since the season started, a few games in. You can see it watching on tv.  Everything about him is slowed down and weaker than it's ever been - skating, passing, shooting and positioning are all just weak.

 

2 goals the other night he and Konecny looked totally lost in coverage - the Hamilton redirect and I forget the later one - but it was plain as day that Couturier isn't himself.

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29 minutes ago, Digityman said:

However, as mojo said, the next 2 drafts are looking pretty good.  While I personally don't think Giroux is the problem, he might help fix it. 

 

An issue here is the NMC that Giroux has. He's going to waive - if he does - to go to a contender, which likely gets them a low end first round pick. Which is pretty much what they've been building with already.

 

Same thing with a Hayes and his NMC - if you can get someone to pick up that $7.1M contract for the next four years.

 

That said, I just don't see ol' Fletch - having been the GM behind bringing in Atkinson, Hayes, Ristolainen, and extending Couturier - moving those players out. And there aren't a bunch of teams that I see waiting around to take them.

 

I'd retain salary to move JVR - it's only for next season. I can see ol' Fletch doing that. What's the potential return?

 

This is bigger than all that, though - this is really looking at the fundamentals behind the entire organization*. The phillyosophy hasn't changed at all in 20 years and the results have gotten increasingly worse before settling out at generally mediocre.

 

The only GM that tried to build a foundation was Hextall, and they canned him for doing it. They are going to continue chasing the dragon, insisting that they are thisclose to "competing for the Stanley Cup" and meaning by that "make the playoffs and anything can happen."

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2 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

And while we are at it, let's not leave our $26M man Couturier out of it. I was at the Carolina game last Friday and specifically focused on him.  The guy looks lost.  Plain lost. 

 

I think you inverted the $62M there...

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22 minutes ago, radoran said:

The only GM that tried to build a foundation was Hextall, and they canned him for doing it.

 

In fairness he kind of stepped all over his crank with JvR 2.0, O'Brien, Nolan Patrick and his reticence to just say okay to corporate douche-nozzles and continue doing what he was "doing". 

Many of the guys we wish were better are Hextall picks. Some have worked out most have been high character -meh. 

It was time for him to go. 

 

It's funny how 3 years ago the Flyers prospect pool was considered to be one of the better groups in the league.  Now that those guys are actually playing or not playing it's uh, decidedly worse.

Fletcher kept those guys too. 

 

I also think, Guerin has reaped some benefits from Fletcher's work in Minnesota. 

He ****ed up there quite a bit, but they found guys who could play.  They didn't keep all of them but Tuch, Burns, Kaspirov...those are good players they drafted while picking in the middle. 

Edited by mojo1917
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1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Also a point about Giroux, as part of an ensemble he could have had success, he was never going to be better than Crosby and the true generational talents, he punched way over his weight for a long time. A better supporting cast could have yielded better results.

 

I mentioned elsewhere that as a playmaking with with an A on a team with Richards and Crater - which was "the plan" before they "won the trades" - he could have been tremendously effective.

 

We've talked many times about where I am with Giroux - he's been terribly mishandled by the organization who put him in a captain's role he wasn't suited for and had never been, played him in a position he'd never played before the NHL, and never got him the support he needed. Now, for me, he's the face of the worst period of hockey in franchise history.

 

That's not "all his fault" - but it is what he is.

 

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

The young guys who were supposed to take the mantle and push 28 down the line up aren't.

Maybe they won't so why not, blow it up?

 

Couturier did push him out of the #1C position and allowed him to play the role he is best suited for - playmaking wing. That revitalized his career.

 

For me, looking at the "young guys" - Konecny and Farabee are still effective 20/50 guys with upside. Laughton is a serviceable bottom six winger. Provorov is a top pair dman, if not a "true 1". Lindblom is a shadow of his former potential. Frost and Allison are unknowns.

 

What they don't have is an actual second line center to make the most out of their wingers. And I just don't see ol' Hayseyey as "that guy" when he comes back from aggravating his abdominal injury for the third time.

 

That said, I do think this team as assembled had more potential than the one that sleptwalked through last season. It's just that it never took the ice and, honestly, doesn't look like it's going to...

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4 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

In fairness he kind of stepped all over his crank with JvR 2.0, O'Brien, Nolan Patrick and his reticence to just say okay to corporate douche-nozzles and continue doing what he was "doing". 

 

For me, JVR 2.0 was him throwing a bone to the E Suite - they wanted a top flight FA and JVR - like it or not - was the second best FA on the market at the time. Again, chasing the dragon.

 

Looking at the O'Brien draft, who was he supposed to take instead? It just wasn't a very good draft. https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2018e.html

 

And every GM in the league would have taken Patrick. It's 100% hindsight to look for Makar, Heiskanen, or Petersson.

 

My main point is that he was the only guy actually trying to build a foundation instead of insisting one was already there.

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@radoran

looking back doesn't really help the situation at hand does it?

We've had conversations similar to these for years now.

What's been done/being done at the moment isn't yielding the intended results.

This is why I am open to something different. ie "blow it up".

 

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44 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

Yes I've been saying this since the season started, a few games in. You can see it watching on tv.  Everything about him is slowed down and weaker than it's ever been - skating, passing, shooting and positioning are all just weak.

 He literally looks horrible... A Tin Man on ice.  I remember vividly during that game where he stood no further than 4 feet away from Svechnikov when both battled for loose puck.  Being so tall and, supposedly, stronger, he could've just overpowered Svechnikov.  Yet, he didn't even seem to make an effort.  Last year, he would've had that puck with ease.  Instead, he basically did nothing.  Svechnikov got a puck, skated aorund him, and made a shot on net, in the process making Couturier looking like a poor man's Derian Hatcher on that play.  Svechnikov looked surprised how easily Couturier gave up on the play.  There was zero effort.  The guy who was sitting next to me just looked equally puzzled and we both shook our heads... Disgusting. 

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3 hours ago, radoran said:

And every GM in the league would have taken Patrick. It's 100% hindsight to look for Makar, Heiskanen, or Petersson.


as a point of reference…. Pettersson is massively struggling in Vancouver right now. I know he has a big upside but right now he is flat out struggling. Still plenty of time for him to turn it around….

Edited by pilldoc
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29 minutes ago, radoran said:

And every GM in the league would have taken Patrick.

this is funny because I've said this for years...

The pick wasn't terrible, it was conventional wisdom at the time. 

Marking #19 into the 2nd line center position the day after the draft was Hextall's choice and it was a poor one. You probably had that as an autotext® from 2018 through 2020.

again, not helpful to continue to repeat what we now know, but fun to see the full circle-ness as we've watched the futility. 

 

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12 minutes ago, pilldoc said:


as a point of reference…. Pettersson is massively struggling in Vancouver right now. I know he has a big upside but right now he is flat out struggling. Still plenty if time for him to turn it around….

 The whole Vancouver team is struggling and Pettersson is struggling with them.  They look very similar to the Flyers this year.

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46 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

Svechnikov looked surprised how easily Couturier gave up on the play.  There was zero effort.  The guy who was sitting next to me just looked equally puzzled and we both shook our heads... Disgusting. 


Wow seeing it live must’ve been excruciating. What the hell could be going on to make Couturier, one of the best in the league at one-on-one battles, refuse to compete? How bad must team morale be to get that guy to quit? 

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34 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Marking #19 into the 2nd line center position the day after the draft was Hextall's choice and it was a poor one. You probably had that as an autotext® from 2018 through 2020.

 

Yeah, and it's part of the overall overvaluing of prospects that the team has been doing for decades. The E Suite has the tendency to look at players for what they want them to be rather than what they are. And filling short team needs with long term problems.

 

Patrick should have gone back to Junior. But they "needed" him to be a #2C out of the gate - which was insane. Not a small chance that it actually ruined his career.

 

The organization* needs a gut remodel.

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2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

It should be clear to anyone watching that the team lacks something, talent, speed, grit...all of these things at the moment

There you go. Speed and grit are a part of the talent problem here. So is scoring goals.

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2 hours ago, radoran said:

The only GM that tried to build a foundation was Hextall, and they canned him for doing it. They are going to continue chasing the dragon, insisting that they are thisclose to "competing for the Stanley Cup" and meaning by that "make the playoffs and anything can happen."

Not only did they can Hextall for doing it, they didn't let him do it properly, or he thought he could do the impossible, compete while retooling.

 

Trading Giroux now is, whatever, trading Giroux 5 years ago would have been a bold move and would have netted you far more in return.

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32 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Yeah, and it's part of the overall overvaluing of prospects that the team has been doing for decades. The E Suite has the tendency to look at players for what they want them to be rather than what they are. And filling short team needs with long term problems.

 

Patrick should have gone back to Junior. But they "needed" him to be a #2C out of the gate - which was insane. Not a small chance that it actually ruined his career.

 

The organization* needs a gut remodel.

He should have never been drafted to begin with. I never liked that pick , I never liked picking  a guy who was injured in his draft year and with all the problems we had with Lindros and Borudon , I never would have picked a guy with head/migraine problems . Hextall overruled the scouts who wanted Makar...Fine line between winning and losing...we picked Morin over Pulock, Patrick over Makar and Petterson and we passed on a few good guys to pick O'Brien, we also missed out on Brock Boeser by one pick, we got Konecny with the next pick. So with a little luck and not reaching on picks like Morin and O'Brien, we would be alot better team right now.

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59 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Yeah, and it's part of the overall overvaluing of prospects that the team has been doing for decades. The E Suite has the tendency to look at players for what they want them to be rather than what they are. And filling short team needs with long term problems.

 

Patrick should have gone back to Junior. But they "needed" him to be a #2C out of the gate - which was insane. Not a small chance that it actually ruined his career.

 

The organization* needs a gut remodel.

The ONLY way that happens, is by losing. The other is to convince enough die-hards to stop buying tickets. A dent in their annual team profits, might be enough. Unfortunately, middle of the road, is just the way it is. Or, we'll just eternally be a middling franchise and nothing more, like we are now unless a ton of losing begins or they lose money.

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10 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Hextall overruled the scouts who wanted Makar...Fine line between winning and losing...we picked Morin over Pulock, Patrick over Makar and Petterson and we passed on a few good guys to pick O'Brien

 

Have not heard about Hextall overruling the scouts, but it's possible.

 

19 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

So with a little luck and not reaching on picks like Morin and O'Brien, we would be alot better team right now.

 

Always hated the Morin pick. Still do. Another Homer special.

 

There's not a clear "good guy" after O'Brien. K'Andre Miller, perhaps, or Isac Lundstrom or Rasmus Sandin. Wouldn't really call any of them "difference makers." Lundestrom's 26 points in 93 games. Miller 15 in 73. Sandin 19 in 59.

 

No one else in that first round after O'Brien has played more than a handful of games. Three have played zero.

 

Who would you have taken? https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2018e.html

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1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:


Wow seeing it live must’ve been excruciating. What the hell could be going on to make Couturier, one of the best in the league at one-on-one battles, refuse to compete? How bad must team morale be to get that guy to quit? 

 

It was brutal and sickening to watch that, especially considering the fact that we are talking the winner of the Selke Trophy only 2 years ago.  Something must be going on in the locker room.... The whole team looked completely disinterested.  And after the second Aho's goal, the whole team just lied down and died. This was the worst effort I have seen from Orange & Black in the last several years. 

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7 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

The ONLY way that happens, is by losing. The other is to convince enough die-hards to stop buying tickets. A dent in their annual team profits, might be enough. Unfortunately, middle of the road, is just the way it is. Or, we'll just eternally be a middling franchise and nothing more, like we are now unless a ton of losing begins or they lose money.

 

They're selling 90% filled this season, which is the lowest, I think, since the Big Bank Building opened.

 

Lower bowl, center ice tickets are going for less than face value on StubHub (checked yesterday). And they're going unsold.

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3 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

This was the worst effort I have seen from Orange & Black in the last several years. 

 

Can I interest you in a 6-1 loss to Buffalo last March?

 

3 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

Something must be going on in the locker room.... The whole team looked completely disinterested. 

 

I'm old enough to remember when the $62M extension was a good deal for the team.

 

It starts next season...

Edited by radoran
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