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A Call to Trade Giroux and Go to Rebuild


Howie58

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10 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

The reason you trade Giroux is because the team is finished. Sure he has been our best player, but he is up there in age and we need to get assets to rebuild, so Giroux does not fit into the future of this team and since we have no chance to win now, so you move your most valuable assets. To me, that’s Giroux and Coots.

Hey I'm all for trading Giroux, but IMO you need to get the management, HC and GM situation figured out first.

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20 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Umm..sorry Giroux is no longer worth 7.5 million per year.

That is what the problem with this franchise, signing long term has been Flyers (Giroux) or no talent Flyers (Hayes) to long tern big money contracts.

Yet the *organization doesn't give a rats a*se...sponsored by Comcast.

 

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8 hours ago, Tomdog said:

Giroux is not your problem, he is the indicator of your problem. 
Chuck Fletcher is your problem, start over from the top down. 
look at what Minnesota did with a good GM. 

Agreed, along with the whole coaching staff.

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13 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Agreed, along with the whole coaching staff.

Chuck Fletcher became GM due to his association with Bob Clarke, period. His dad and Clarke were close friends. That is what makes me think ol' Clarkie is behind the scenes somewhere in the ol' Flyer boy network.

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1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

When I tuned in to Fletcher's presser today he was rattling on about injuries and wanting to see the injured guys back and the full team compete before he made any moves. That's fair enough if the guys that are playing now looked like a competitive, hungry bunch. But even Chuckie must see they don't look like that at all they look like they've checked out and just don't give a damn. There's a Major Funk in that dressing room god only knows how they fix it.

IMO Fletcher wouldn't know a good hockey player they hit him with a body check.

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23 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Umm..sorry Giroux is no longer worth 7.5 million per year.

That is what the problem with this franchise, signing long term has been Flyers (Giroux) or no talent Flyers (Hayes) to long tern big money contracts.

 

Read that again you'll see I wrote "sign him for $7.5 over 3 years," or $2.5mil/year. I knew I was dreaming when I wrote it. I'm still dreaming. If he takes a hometown discount it'll be $5 to $6mil/year and I'd be okay with that as long as the term is 3 years no more.

 

Frankly though I'm convinced it's better to trade him. If they keep him he's still captain right? The Flyers need a fresh start, as everyone (except Fletcher) is saying, a true rebuild. That means a new captain. I love Giroux and everything he brings. But it's time.

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8 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Chuck Fletcher became GM due to his association with Bob Clarke, period. His dad and Clarke were close friends. That is what makes me think ol' Clarkie is behind the scenes somwhere in the ol' Flyer boy network.

 

And Fletcher got the job because he thinks like Clarke and Homer. I give him credit for turning around a thoroughly broken down Wild team. When he took they had Gaborik and that's about it. But Fletcher had 9 years as the Wild's GM and if I'm not mistaken they never got past R1. He landed Parise and Suter, he made some good moves. But the results are what they are. He built a "good enough to make the POs" team, and that's what the Flyers have been doing since...forever.

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8 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

 

Not sure AV is to blame.  No coach would be able to do much with this hot mess.

See I'm not convinced there isn't some talent on this team, I just think the style of play AV wants this team to play is not conducive to the strengths of the players. Yes there are a few high priced duds JVR and Hayes come to mind but overall I think there is enough talent to win games.

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6 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

Read that again you'll see I wrote "sign him for $7.5 over 3 years," or $2.5mil/year. I knew I was dreaming when I wrote it. I'm still dreaming. If he takes a hometown discount it'll be $5 to $6mil/year and I'd be okay with that as long as the term is 3 years no more.

 

Frankly though I'm convinced it's better to trade him. If they keep him he's still captain right? The Flyers need a fresh start, as everyone (except Fletcher) is saying, a true rebuild. That means a new captain. I love Giroux and everything he brings. But it's time.

Oops, sorry

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4 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

 

Not sure AV is to blame.  No coach would be able to do much with this hot mess.

 

I don't think he's to blame.

I actually like him, but I also am not entirely convinced he's the answer.

 

 

Who selected Therien?   I honestly don't remember.   Do you (this is really for anyone, not specifically you, MD) have any recollection over whether the assistants were AV's call or where they brought in by Fletcher and/or above?   

 

The "blame" isn't on any one assistant (or combination of), but they, too, don't seem to be the answer.

 

 

I think while we're all expressing it differently, i think we're all coming around to the conclusion that the root cause is cancer from the top.

 

Yeah, maybe AV is the wrong coach for the wrong team and the wrong time.

Maybe the same for the assistants.   I was okay with AV, but I have never seen anything from either of the assistants (Therien & Yeo) that says they should have ever been hired.   I thought they were terrible in previous stops.    But I thought the GM was terrible in previous stops.  And I thought his boss has been terrible for a long time.   And who the hell is Dave Scott, anyway?

 

You look at the company who owns them and the way they conduct business elsewhere.   I mean, the company is simply absurd.

 

Anyway, talking about specific players or coaches or the lady running the counter at Campo's in the pavillion is just missng the point.   All those pieces can be and have been switched out.   We can talk about the wrong guy being captain, but really 1) who else? and 2) who cares?  It doesn't matter.

 

It's run like a garbage dump and we're surprised we're smelling garbage.    And it won't change until the company is sold or time takes care of the aging senior citizen dumba#### running the show.   And much of the aging fan base in the process.

 

And you want to know why or how they can get away with it?  Spend 20 minutes reading any of twitter, facebook, or instagram on the Flyers-related pages.   They still have a bunch of moron followers planning parade routes because the flyers traded kids for hasbeens or idiots.

 

And the cycle continues...

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16 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Chuck Fletcher became GM due to his association with Bob Clarke, period. His dad and Clarke were close friends. That is what makes me think ol' Clarkie is behind the scenes somewhere in the ol' Flyer boy network.

 

If you scroll almost allllllllll the way down here: https://www.nhl.com/flyers/team/front-office

 

image.png

 

happy michael scott GIF

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1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

If you scroll almost allllllllll the way down here: https://www.nhl.com/flyers/team/front-office

 

image.png

 

happy michael scott GIF

I understand that. Thanks, BTW, to you and Michael Scott! What I'm saying is he's much more involved with personnel decisions, IMO, than many people think he is. So many people act like, no, Clarke isn't really involved with personnel decisions. He sure as hell is.

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14 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

So many people act like, no, Clarke isn't really involved with personnel decisions. He sure as hell is.

 

Well, when he was "fired" he was kicked upstairs and replaced by his protege, who was kicked upstairs when he was fired and then was the guy who fired his successor.

 

And nothing has really changed in how the organization* conducts itself.

 

In short, you're not wrong.

 

Staring Episode 2 GIF by The Office

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Wellshit. If that's the answer - rot from the top - then we might as well buy into "Anything Can Happen" because that's all that's left. Comcast won't sell the Flyers while it's profitable. Clarke and Homer are there for life. We can stop buying tickets and merchandise but there's not enough of "us" to make a dent.

 

And what the hell anything can happen the 2010 run proved it. The highlight for me was crushing the Bruins in G7. Gagne, Hartnell, even JuniorVarsityR scored big goals. But of course the Bruins regrouped and won the Cup the very next season while the Flyers are still building teams that "should make the POs."

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4 hours ago, Fizz said:

See I'm not convinced there isn't some talent on this team, I just think the style of play AV wants this team to play is not conducive to the strengths of the players. Yes there are a few high priced duds JVR and Hayes come to mind but overall I think there is enough talent to win games.

There is no talent on this team.  Couple of good players here and there, that's about it.

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Giroux should have been traded probably a couple seasons ago now, when it became painfully obvious this core was not going to be enough to get it done. Don't get me wrong, G's an amazing player and would still today be a great boon to a playoff team, but his value has declined now to the point where trading him just wouldn't net nearly as much as it could have up to maybe two seasons ago or so.

 

Honestly though, I don't blame the org for keeping Giroux around. He's been one of very few bright spots on this team for years now. I advocated for trading him for a couple off seasons now not because he's bad by any means, but really because he's good. He's not good enough to anchor a contender, but he's good enough to push a team into the playoff bubble. That's fine if you have a young team with a bunch of up and comers who need experience. We're not that team. We don't have a good enough core to build around and really haven't for a long time.

 

But keeping or trading G I don't think is a big convo at this point in his career. Couts I could see. He'd still fetch a solid haul if he's traded in the next 2-3 seasons or so. Maybe we get to watch and see if the brass make the same mistake over again with him now. 

 

The bigger challenges I have with Fletch though is with Hayes and soon to be way overpaid Ristolainen. The Hayes situation was obvious to anyone paying attention. It was and is and always will be an awful contract. He's the new McDud, and personally I wasn't over the last one yet. When they hand out another similarly terrible contract to Ristolainen (and they will), we're going to be stuck with two garbage contracts that can't be moved for half a decade or whatever. That is entirely on Fletch. 

 

It's been said before, but someone somewhere clearly overvalued this team some whatever number of years ago. Someone clearly saw the very good Giroux and Couts and somehow-productive-though-no-one-knows-how Voracek, and they decided this team just needed a few tweaks and a couple above average younger players, and they'd be a contender. They looked at the roster some 6-7+ years ago and thought they had the core pieces to build around. They were wrong. 

 

I don't even blame them for being wrong about that 6-7+ years ago. Giroux had some stellar years. Couts is a very very good two-way centre. These are guys that absolutely can be part of a contending team. I can understand where they might have thought they just needed to tweak. What I have a much harder time understanding is how they could persist in that folly for so long -- long after it really should have been blatantly obvious this core just isn't good enough to contend. 

 

I mean, the only players I've felt even mildly excited about have been youngsters who frankly are probably never going to be as good as Giroux, and Giroux has clearly proven to not be good enough on his own. In what world does adding TK or Farabee or Frost make this team into a contender? It doesn't. They're good, maybe eventually better than good even, but they're not gamechangers. They never were going to be gamechangers. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking with no basis in reality.

 

We need guys who have significant impact over a game. We don't have those guys. They're not on the team as vets. They're not in the stable. We do not have any top-level impact players in the system right now. Until we do, we're just going to be living on the bubble at best.

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14 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

One of the Philly writers wrote about Hexy overruling the scouts on the Patrick pick, you can find it online, I read jt.  As far as picking someone else over O'Brien , Miller would have been good.  I still hope O'Brien turns into something.  Rubstov is injured again and Morin is on his last shot, Patrick is a bust and Sanheim is nothing special.  

 

Pretty sure every team in the league except one had Patrick and/or Hischier 1/2. I'd never heard of them wanting Makar over either. 

 

I was ok with the O'Brien pick cause it was a swing for the fences after we had a very rare 1st round pick already. When you have TWO and you get a Farabee with your first there's nothing wrong with taking that shot. Hextall had 2...twice! Now we're back to a gm who thinks ONE 1st rounder every 2 years is good enough. And 2nds are worthless. Farabee, by the way, has outscored 8 of the guys taken before him. 

 

Sanheim may be nothing special, but he's better than many players taken before him, and better than most taken after. 

 

Rubstov I've pretty much written off. Same as Morin. He was Homers last 1st round pick.

 

You can always second guess picks years later. You can also find worse ones taken earlier. 

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14 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I was ok with the Ellis trade and when he is healthy will still be ok with him.

 

He is the power play QB this was built around and well he got hurt it happens in a sport like hockey. Their words not mine that is why they moved Ghost they felt he was just a shot from the point and they wanted a puck distributor.

 

It is also why Ivan struggles he is the guy who is going to blast it from the point not QB the powerplay.

 

Ellis has only played 4 games and has netted 1 goal and 4 assists. He can be a big part of fixing this.

 

The crazy news is he still has out produced the two guys he was traded for by 4 points.

 

That is all I am sharing on this mess some call hockey...not sure how they get out of this one. A lot of digging to do.

 

The best case seems everyone gets healthy and the team that was envisioned gets to take the ice not sure it will happen and if it does will it be too little too late.

 

I'm ok with Ellis the player. His contract is terrible, especially taking his health issues into consideration. 

Hayes is an ok player. His contract is terrible. 

I'm sure we'll be adding "ok player" Risto to this list of terrible contracts soon enough.

It's not hard to figure out why the Flyers suck and will for years going forward.

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1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Pretty sure every team in the league except one had Patrick and/or Hischier 1/2. I'd never heard of them wanting Makar over either. 

 

I was ok with the O'Brien pick cause it was a swing for the fences after we had a very rare 1st round pick already. When you have TWO and you get a Farabee with your first there's nothing wrong with taking that shot. Hextall had 2...twice! Now we're back to a gm who thinks ONE 1st rounder every 2 years is good enough. And 2nds are worthless. Farabee, by the way, has outscored 8 of the guys taken before him. 

 

Sanheim may be nothing special, but he's better than many players taken before him, and better than most taken after. 

 

Rubstov I've pretty much written off. Same as Morin. He was Homers last 1st round pick.

 

You can always second guess picks years later. You can also find worse ones taken earlier. 

There actually was an article that states all the scouts wanted Makar or Heiskanan but Hextall overruled them. I know everyone rated Patrick in the top 2, but if you were properly scouting and evaluating how could you not see the talent of Makar, he made the NHL at 18 and excelled, its not like he blossomed over a few years. Since Patrick was injured and had migraines I would have stayed away or even traded down.

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1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

His contract is terrible

 

For the game he brings and not having a crystal ball at the moment his contract at today's numbers glances at Seth Jones and says yes I am good with his contract now let's just get him healthy and back on the ice.

 

Before the injury he was on pace for an 80 point season...just saying not hard to beat on a man why he is down and out...

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16 hours ago, Fizz said:

I just think the style of play AV wants this team to play is not conducive to the strengths of the players.

 

I can't tell what style he's trying to get them to play. Help me understand if you can because I don't see a puck-possession team I don't see a run 'n gun team - I sure don't see a tight-checking, stingy D-first team.

 

What kind of team does AV think the Flyers should be?

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3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

For the game he brings and not having a crystal ball at the moment his contract at today's numbers glances at Seth Jones and says yes I am good with his contract now let's just get him healthy and back on the ice.

 

Before the injury he was on pace for an 80 point season...just saying not hard to beat on a man why he is down and out...

 

His contract is fine if he's healthy. And I agree it's not his fault that he's not. But 6 years? C'mon. 

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