A Call to Trade Giroux and Go to Rebuild

[flyercanuck]

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Before the injury he was on pace for an 80 point season..

 

 Lol. He played 4 games. 

 

After 5 games Atkinson was on pace for 96 goals. He's scored 1 since.

Edited December 1, 2021 by flyercanuck

[OccamsRazor]

36 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

His contract is fine if he's healthy. And I agree it's not his fault that he's not. But 6 years? C'mon. 

 

He is younger than when the Flyers got Kimmo and he played in Philly for 7 years so yeah 6 for a D man with his skillet 6 years hopefully won't be bad....and maybe they can flip him at the end for two 2nd round picks...

[OccamsRazor]

43 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Lol. He played 4 games. 

 

After 5 games Atkinson was on pace for 96 goals. He's scored 1 since.

 

80 points is 80 points.

 

[GratefulFlyers]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

His contract is fine if he's healthy. And I agree it's not his fault that he's not.

 

except that he did miss significant stretches for the Preds. Not every single year but enough years that it should've been a question mark. Of course that's on the Flyers to evaluate before they sign him - as you say "not his fault." I guess the Flyers did what they always do with their FA signings: expect the very best-case scenario.

[elmatus]

This topic should be renamed to a call to trade Couts, Farabee, TK, Provorov, Hart... any of those leads to a more fruitful discussion. Giroux was phenomenal and is still a very good player, but he won't fetch the kind of return needed to kickstart a rebuild -- not anymore. To get that type of thing started, younger pieces would need to be moved, and possibly more than one.

 

So what's the temp there for folks? How would you all feel about reading a headline that at least one if not two or three of those names have been moved?

[tucson83]

24 minutes ago, elmatus said:

This topic should be renamed to a call to trade Couts, Farabee, TK, Provorov, Hart... any of those leads to a more fruitful discussion. Giroux was phenomenal and is still a very good player, but he won't fetch the kind of return needed to kickstart a rebuild -- not anymore. To get that type of thing started, younger pieces would need to be moved, and possibly more than one.

 

So what's the temp there for folks? How would you all feel about reading a headline that at least one if not two or three of those names have been moved?

dont care, anyone accept hart can go as long it gets us talent to build this team on. right now, we have none and fans have to wake up or it will the phillies 2.0 because they cant let go of their own players for talented players. it's going to kill us eventually if the front office doesnt do something at the trade deadline and in the offseason.

Edited December 1, 2021 by tucson83

[flyercanuck]

22 minutes ago, elmatus said:

This topic should be renamed to a call to trade Couts, Farabee, TK, Provorov, Hart... any of those leads to a more fruitful discussion. Giroux was phenomenal and is still a very good player, but he won't fetch the kind of return needed to kickstart a rebuild -- not anymore. To get that type of thing started, younger pieces would need to be moved, and possibly more than one.

 

So what's the temp there for folks? How would you all feel about reading a headline that at least one if not two or three of those names have been moved?

 

I'm good with a rebuild. Have been for a decade.

 

Farabee/TK/Provorov/Hart...those guys are all young enough to still be good players further down the road. Girouxs time is just being wasted. So is Couturier. Not only that, but if they DID do an actual rebuild, those guys only help keep us mediocre. We'd need to be worse I guess.

 

Hart stays no matter what. It took 40 friggin years to find a goalie like him. Same with Provorov. Though Flyer development is taking it's toll on both.

[flyercanuck]

25 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

80 points is 80 points.

 

 

Yes, and 5 points is 5 points. And Ellis has 5 points. 

 

[Digityman]

Hart can't be moved.  That's the largest piece that was missing for the past decade Giroux was "phenomenal".    Imagine if Hart was in net for the past decade - it's arguable - but there might have been a cup in there, especially 2010.   It's also the hardest position to find quality in and they finally have it.  In fact, they might (maybe, could) have two based on the small sample size of Sandstrom's .929 SV% / 2.24 GAA in his last 10.  

 

IMO - On the block is anyone over 25.  If there is going to be a rebuild it needs to be all in this time.  Not mediocre like last time.  Let's get a top 5 pick for 2-3 years and gather as many picks as possible.  **** it, let's pull a 'penguin'.  Up for trade are: 

A Grade:  Couturier, Giroux (NMC), Atkinson (M-NMC)

B Grade:  Lindblom, Laughton

C Grade:  Hayes (Contract $ limitations & M-NMC)

D Grade:  JVR (Buyout)

 

I'm okay with forming a team around guys that are 25 and under.  Again, if this all were to happen we are still 3 years away from being 2 years away.

1. Forwards:  Konecny (24), Farabee (21), Allison (24), MacEwen (25), Wisdom (19), Foerster (19), Frost (22), Ratcliffe (22), Laczynski (24)
2. Defense:  Provorov (24) York (20), Sanheim (25), Zamula (21), Wylie (22), Hogberg (23), Bunnaman (23),  (I actually like Ristolainen too but..)
3. Goalies:  Hart (23), Sandstrom (24), Ersson (22)

Edited December 1, 2021 by Digityman

[radoran]

39 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

except that he did miss significant stretches for the Preds. Not every single year but enough years that it should've been a question mark.

 

He had the knee surgery in 2017 and missed 38 games of the next season while recovering. Played 44 straight and all 82 the next season. He had the concussion from Perry's blindside hit in 2019-20 and then a busted knuckle in 20-21. None of that particularly screams "injury prone" to me.

 

Injuries are always a concern with any player. "lower body" injuries (it appears to be more groin than joint related) are tricky and difficult. He clearly tried to come back too soon this season - a lot of pressure with a new team and also a lot of expectations. As did Hayes. I put a lot of that on the Flyers' medical staff that always seems prone to having guys come back too soon and "play through" things that they clearly shouldn't have played through (Wayne Simmonds is my "go to" poster child for the latter).

 

They should never have rushed him back because having a fully healthy Ellis in January is worth more than a gimpy Ellis in November. Hopefully they get that from him and let him fully heal because they've got a significant six-year commitment on the books.

[SCFlyguy]

21 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

He is younger than when the Flyers got Kimmo and he played in Philly for 7 years so yeah 6 for a D man with his skillet 6 years hopefully won't be bad....and maybe they can flip him at the end for two 2nd round picks...

A 31 yo defenseman in 2007 and a 31 yo defenseman in 2021 are totally different things.  I forget where I read it, but there was an article a while back that pre-lockout, the players were in their prime from ages 28-32.  After the lockout, the prime is 23-28 (prime being players best point production and other metrics).  It's a young man's game now and 31 is starting the downside of your career these days, with notable exceptions.

 

20 hours ago, elmatus said:

This topic should be renamed to a call to trade Couts, Farabee, TK, Provorov, Hart... any of those leads to a more fruitful discussion. Giroux was phenomenal and is still a very good player, but he won't fetch the kind of return needed to kickstart a rebuild -- not anymore. To get that type of thing started, younger pieces would need to be moved, and possibly more than one.

 

So what's the temp there for folks? How would you all feel about reading a headline that at least one if not two or three of those names have been moved?

One or two?  There is not a single player on this roster I would care if they got moved.

 

The cap situation is back to being bad after Hextall cleaned it up (thanks, Fletch).  Hextall should have traded Giroux and Simmons in their primes because they weren't going to be top flight players by the time Hextall's picks started contributing.  Unfortunately, it appears we are going to perpetuate this situation by holding on to Couts, Giroux, etc.

[OccamsRazor]

39 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

31 yo defenseman in 2007 and a 31 yo defenseman in 2021 are totally different things.  I forget where I read it, but there was an article a while back that pre-lockout, the players were in their prime from ages 28-32.  After the lockout, the prime is 23-28 (prime being players best point production and other metrics).  It's a young man's game now and 31 is starting the downside of your career these days, with notable exceptions.

 

Maybe I don't buy that at all.

 

Bottom line is Ellis is their 2nd best and with the way Ivan has played arguably their best defenseman on the roster.

 

So I am keeping him but for the right offer I would move him.

 

So I'll play along. So who is going to skate alongside Provorov then?

 

Who are you filling the Ellis hole with?

 

I have to be blown away to move:

 

Hart

Provorov

Farabee

Coots

 

Those are the 4 I keep.

 

I would move Coots but they want give me what I want for him so I keep him.

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by OccamsRazor
Two years away from being two years away

[SCFlyguy]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

So I'll play along. So who is going to skate alongside Provorov then?

 

Who are you filling the Ellis hole with?

Braun?  Who cares?  They're going to be bad either way.  All that matters is tearing this down in a way that maximizes assets.

[pilldoc]

This season is turning into a disaster of epic proportions. There's plenty of blame to go around, starting with the front office, then the coaches and ending with the men on the ice. I'm totally stumped in trying to pick just one thing ailing this team. Is it injuries?, personnel?, the coaches system perhaps?, or maybe its the front offices misplaced belief that a few changes could help this team compete?

 

I'm sure many of us on here could pick any one of the above and would not be wrong.

 

My only hope now is they KEEP losing and ensure we have good odds at getting some elite talent through the draft. What else is there to cheer for?  (Am I wrong to be thinking this?)  .... Seriously... Even after Fletch goes out on Tuesday faced the local media and, while noting the urgency of the situation, held firm to his belief that the players and coaches were fully capable of pulling the team out of its six-game losing streak death spiral.   This team...so, fired up by their general manager’s support and reassured by the public guarantee that sweeping changes aren’t looming in the immediate future to turn their lives upside down, the Flyers went out last night and lost 4-1 to the Rangers, to extend their 7 game losing streak.

 

Here's the scary part .... The Flyers played far better last night than they have been through the majority of this losing streak. And you know what..... it still wasn’t nearly enough.

When you stand back and take a look at the last 10/11 years, we're not far off from laughing stock status.

[OccamsRazor]

18 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

Braun?  Who cares?  They're going to be bad either way.  All that matters is tearing this down in a way that maximizes assets.

 

 

Sure why not fcuk it who cares...

[Digityman]

3 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

When you stand back and take a look at the last 10/11 years, we're not far off from laughing stock status.

Pretty sure we are the only ones that think we aren't by now buddy 

 

4 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

This team...so, fired up by their general manager’s support and reassured by the public guarantee that sweeping changes aren’t looming in the immediate future to turn their lives upside down, the Flyers went out last night and lost 4-1 to the Rangers, to extend their 7 game losing streak.

This is a great point.  Giroux was animated as I've ever seen him.  Coaches weren't even involved in the timeout.   He was trying to push the team but unfortunately it has 4 flats.

[GrittyForever]

Well if you want  a proper rebuild it takes time and it doesn't happen all at once but what you need is a clear plan in management and a timeline and they have to stick to it. You can't change the plan midway if you get a little brief unexpected success (or failure).  

It's also going to be hard to rebuild this year as numerous teams have already stripped down and are tanking for a shot at Wright. 

If you look at a simulator like this:

https://www.tankathon.com/nhl

Nobody is trading us picks from this year unless they are in the upper end and Arizona and Buffalo already have some of those. You're going to be looking at picks and prospects for 2023 and beyond and some of them will be lottery protected. 

Point being, reality says if you go full on rebuild you're looking at 2 years of stripping it down before rebuilding it at best. Current management won't do that, not in their interest, ownership would have to want it. 

 

[Goblin99]

I am frustrated by this Team as well. Been following them since the 70's. They need a True #1 Center and If they keep G he needs to be moved to the #2 spot just like Tavares in Toronto. He is not a number 1 center any longer. This move would probably actually help him and It will get him away from first line defenders and open some ice up for him. This dump and chase hockey we play is horrible.  No one is chasing!  They also throw so many blind or behind the back passes to no one and end up turning pucks over. They need to play like all the great Teams have done in the past which is puck possession. Dont give it up easily. No blind plays or low percentage passing.  I know this team isn't built that way though and I am only dreaming that one day soon they can fix this God awful mess we have been watching now for more then a decade. Sorry rant over ...... 

[Digityman]

8 hours ago, Goblin99 said:

This dump and chase hockey we play is horrible.

Agree completely and I wish they would have possession entering the zone more but I have a feeling this is a coaching decision.

 

8 hours ago, Goblin99 said:

They need a True #1 Center and If they keep G he needs to be moved to the #2 spot just like Tavares in Toronto. He is not a number 1 center any longer.

He's a winger now.  I can't see him playing center again - maybe, 3rd line center for a playoff bound team.

[mojo1917]

Angry me posted I'm ready to witness this team being blown up.

 

Since then, Teen-girl Mojo has whooped COVID's ass, and I had a great day with my Grandma so now everyone knows they love/d each other.

Zero "regerts" as the tattoo says.

 

I think if this team is still awful by the Christmas break, I'd be on board with bag of pucks trades of underperformers and a few years of straight terrible hockey, rather than peeing on my leg and telling me about the low pressure system...

 

I do think that the team that was assembled over the summer ought to have more than 1 game together before I am ready to say, "well that didn't work".

I know other team's have had injuries, but this whole organization has been ravaged by them, there's not really anyone to call up. 

A wicked tough schedule compounded by key guys not being available and the guys thought to be on the come being unavailable has us where we are now. 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by mojo1917

[radoran]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

A wicked tough schedule compounded by key guys not being available and the guys thought to be on the come being unavailable has us where we are now. 

 

Glad to hear about the fam.

 

I'm likewise on board for the time being, but I am pissed at the compete level. It's like end of last season where they took the excuse and rolled over and played dead.

 

You can still be tough to play against and still play competent hockey despite the injuries.

 

They had a little of that back with the wins over CAR and WAS but there's also a degree of opposition taking them lightly and goalies standing on heads.

 

Players gotta play.

[Howie58]

I am not inspired by AV's confirmation of what some of us have said for the last month--the only way we win is in defensive struggles of 1-0 or 2-1 with Rad's "goalies standing on heads" performances.  That is quite a confession.  

 

This may turn into the low point of the franchise since 2010.  Fletcher tried but his efforts may not pan out.  Meanwhile, WTF is goin on with JVR, Laughton, and yes...Oskar.  I understand what happened with him on the health front, but this is really scary.  

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

Glad to hear about the fam.

 

I'm likewise on board for the time being, but I am pissed at the compete level. It's like end of last season where they took the excuse and rolled over and played dead.

 

You can still be tough to play against and still play competent hockey despite the injuries.

 

They had a little of that back with the wins over CAR and WAS but there's also a degree of opposition taking them lightly and goalies standing on heads.

 

Players gotta play.

 

Absolutely. Teams lacking talent can at least show something.

 

And why do our young players look so good until they're Flyers. Or shortly thereafter.

 

Provorov certainly looked like a #1 in the making a few years ago. Struggled terribly since then. Konecny looked like a top line winger. Now he doesn't. Same with Farabee. Sanheim and Myers looked like they were well on the way to being at the least a great 2nd pairing. Can't wait to see what they do to York and Foerster.

Oh wait, they already are.

[ruxpin]

Meanwhile, back in the Flyers' player development department...

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by ruxpin