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Flyers at the trade deadline


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One thing to consider is the Rangers rebuild as exemplar.  A good assessment a few days ago made the following point.  They did it in three years.  They did not tie it to a core group.  They simply made a decision to do it and make it fast.  A model that says players a, b, c, and d are the core to build around (Flyers were an example with Coots, G, and Simmonds and assume they have 5-6 years) doesn't work because (injuries, quick performance drops, etc.), the core tends to falter sooner than pla

Zinbanejad is in his sixth year with the Rangers. He's not part of the rebuild, he's one of the pieces they chose to build around.   And the Flyers have "hit" so far on more of their draft picks than the Rangers have. Kaapo and Lafreniere have been legit undewhelming. Lafreniere has fewer career points than Nolan Patrick did after his first year. In his first two seasons - 143 games - Patrick also had more a dozen points than Kaapo does after 137. Aside from 30-year-old Krieder - anoth

Yep and put Ivan with fhe skill and talent the Bolts have on that blueline and at forward I bet them fans would be wanting the Flyers to acquire a guy like that.   The Flyers have been gifted sports cars and they have ruined them instead of use as intended and growing them.   Bolts have found the talent in the first place but most importantly brought them along properly as well.   It's what you do with the seedlings you get to sprout that mattes most...  

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33 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Sure...I mean it only took them FIFTY years to draft a defenceman as good as him. (actually, longer) No doubt they can get another anytime they want. 

 

I am not disputing his skillset.  We've all witnessed that.  But something is just not there.  Maybe, like Rad said, it's a consistent lack of a defensive partner.  Maybe his play is a product of the whole team just being abysmal.  I don't know... And I am not saying that they have to just rush to ship him out of town.  But if a suitable offer comes along, I wouldn't necessarily reject it right away, either.

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BTW, I think we have an interesting test case in Sam Morin.  I said it a few weeks ago--this is probably his last shot.  Maybe he blossoms elsewhere--but I don't think Fletcher can sign him to another year unless he shows something later this year.   Roster space matters.  

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1 minute ago, Howie58 said:

BTW, I think we have an interesting test case in Sam Morin.  I said it a few weeks ago--this is probably his last shot.  Maybe he blossoms elsewhere--but I don't think Fletcher can sign him to another year unless he show something later this year.   Roster space matters.  

As soon as Morin is able, put him on the third pair in place of Seeler or the other stiff we just signed and let him play the remainder of the season. 

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1 hour ago, Howie58 said:

One thing to consider is the Rangers rebuild as exemplar.  A good assessment a few days ago made the following point.  They did it in three years.  They did not tie it to a core group.  They simply made a decision to do it and make it fast.  A model that says players a, b, c, and d are the core to build around (Flyers were an example with Coots, G, and Simmonds and assume they have 5-6 years) doesn't work because (injuries, quick performance drops, etc.), the core tends to falter sooner than planned.  We may be seeing that with Ellis and JVR.  Provorov may not be all that we hoped he be.  Bottom line--rebuild with speed or be a team constrained to mediocrity.  

 

Along these lines--the Genie in the Bottle, "just get us into the playoff" model seldom yields a Cup, something we saw in 2010. I also think the speedy approach puts a premium on young players.  From that vantage--not sure rolling the dice on 30+ players is a good move.  It also means six years for German Rubstov is too long--someone pans out fairly soon or move them out.  Sometimes patience isn't a virtue.

 

Food for thought.  

Rangers stripped everything down in about 18-24 months, acquired assets, made trades, etc.  That is a rebuild.


What the Flyers did in 2008, 2012 and 2021 were not rebuilds.  It was trade 2-3 players, burn assets to do so, sign a UFA, we can turn this around quickly, except they couldn't.

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3 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

Rangers stripped everything down in about 18-24 months, acquired assets, made trades, etc.  That is a rebuild.


What the Flyers did in 2008, 2012 and 2021 were not rebuilds.  It was trade 2-3 players, burn assets to do so, sign a UFA, we can turn this around quickly, except they couldn't.

Plus the Rangera made great trades, Zabanjad and Fox, and they signed Panaran. They landed three elite players, we traded for Risto and signed Hayes and JVR, three mediocre players.  Plus they hit on alot of their draft picks, while the majority of our picks were injured and lost valuable development time. They also got the first and second pick 2 years in a row. If those guys pan out , they are gonna be some team for many years.  The Rangers rebuilt quick and made great trades and got a great UFA, there's some luck also involved also Panaran and Fox wanted to go to the Rangers. Nobody wants to come to Philly any more.

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1 hour ago, Mad Dog said:

 

I am not disputing his skillset.  We've all witnessed that.  But something is just not there.  Maybe, like Rad said, it's a consistent lack of a defensive partner.  Maybe his play is a product of the whole team just being abysmal.  I don't know... And I am not saying that they have to just rush to ship him out of town.  But if a suitable offer comes along, I wouldn't necessarily reject it right away, either.

 

There was something there only a few years ago. As a 20 year old he scored 17 goals (tied for the NHL lead by a defenceman) and 24 assists while playing very good D.

 

Then came Fletch and his turnstile of garbage defence partners. And we got to watch Provorov scrambling for his life most games. Makes for great development. Now they're working on shattering Carter Harts.

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20 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Then came Fletch and his turnstile of garbage defence partners.

 

With respect, ol' Fletch is the dude that brought in Niskanen for 19-20. Niskanen then decided he didn't want to play hockey any more in 20-21, which the Flyers found out about late in the FA period after the better options had been snapped up.

 

Then he went out and traded for Ellis for 21-22, who developed the (apparent) groin injury that they rushed him back from.

 

Ol' Fletch has tried to get support for Provorov and it's not entirely his fault that it hasn't worked out to this point.

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21 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

With respect, ol' Fletch is the dude that brought in Niskanen for 19-20. Niskanen then decided he didn't want to play hockey any more in 20-21, which the Flyers found out about late in the FA period after the better options had been snapped up.

 

Then he went out and traded for Ellis for 21-22, who developed the (apparent) groin injury that they rushed him back from.

 

Ol' Fletch has tried to get support for Provorov and it's not entirely his fault that it hasn't worked out to this point.

 

Yes he did.

 

He's also brought in  Gustassson/Yandle/Seeler/Cannauton/Pouliot/Prosser/Braun and probably some other slop that's even worse that I can't think of off the top of my head.

 

Not to mention the already beaten to death gross overpayment for Dumb as a Post Ristolainen.

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1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

He's also brought in  Gustassson/Yandle/Seeler/Cannauton/Pouliot/Prosser/Braun and probably some other slop that's even worse that I can't think of off the top of my head.

 

None of those guys were ever supposed to be paired with Provorov...

 

I'm not a fan of ol' Fletch, but I do try to be fair...

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Just now, radoran said:

 

None of those guys were ever supposed to be paired with Provorov...

 

I'm not a fan of ol' Fletch, but I do try to be fair...

 

They may not ever have supposed to be "paired" with him...but he was forced to play with them at one time or another. And as a rather youngish defenceman still developing his game, trying to cover for the Gustaffsons and Seelers of the Fletchables just can't be a huge confidence booster.

 

Which I'm sure has had as positive an influence on also young and developing Carter Hart.

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Just now, flyercanuck said:

They may not ever have supposed to be "paired" with him...but he was forced to play with them at one time or another.

 

Pouliot never played a game for the Flyers.

 

Prosser played six games last year.

 

Connauton has played two games.

 

I've not seen Seeler on the top pair. And don't recall Gustavssoonnn getting much time there either in his 24 Flyer games.

 

Yandle is getting more minutes because Ellis is missing.

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6 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Pouliot never played a game for the Flyers.

 

Prosser played six games last year.

 

Connauton has played two games.

 

I've not seen Seeler on the top pair. And don't recall Gustavssoonnn getting much time there either in his 24 Flyer games.

 

Yandle is getting more minutes because Ellis is missing.

 

Damn you and your facts!

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I think there is definitely validity to the defensive partner argument.  I am watching the defensive pairing of Adam Fox and Ryan Lindgren, and this may really be the best defensive pairing in NHL. I watch Lingren and I noticed one inersting thing: he hardly ever ventures across his blue line, being just about as perfect in man coverage as one can be.  Now, this is not to take away from Fox's talent, but don't you think he would have confidence o join the rush in even strength knowing how virtually perfect Lingren is in terms of coverage and playing his man?  Not saying that Provorov puts up Fox's number with Lingren, but I bet it would make a world of difference.

 

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1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

Zinbanejad is in his sixth year with the Rangers. He's not part of the rebuild, he's one of the pieces they chose to build around.

 

And the Flyers have "hit" so far on more of their draft picks than the Rangers have. Kaapo and Lafreniere have been legit undewhelming. Lafreniere has fewer career points than Nolan Patrick did after his first year. In his first two seasons - 143 games - Patrick also had more a dozen points than Kaapo does after 137. Aside from 30-year-old Krieder - another guy they decided to keep - the other Rangers draft picks on the roster are Chytil, Miller, Lundkvist, and (quite frankly the only big impact player) Shesterkin.

 

I'd put Couturier, Laughton, Sanheim, Provorov, Konecny, Farabee, Lindblom, Hart up against that group any day of the week.

 

Where is Vaitali Kravstov (9th overall in 2018)? In Russia. Lias Andersson (7th overall in 2017)? in Los Angeles' system after being traded for a 2nd.

 

Fox didn't "want to go" to the Rangers, he was traded for.  They also traded for Strome, Goodrow, Reaves, Trouba, Lindgren and signed Panarin and Georgiev.

 

Quite frankly, the roster revamp ol' Fletch has attempted since looks quite similar to what the Rangers did - the issue is that key pieces of that revamp missed significant amounts of time this season. We may not like some of the parts acquired, but Ellis, Hayes, Ristolainen, Atkinson, Braun isn't all that different from Strome, Goodrow, Reaves, Trouba, Lindgren.

 

To your point about luck playing a factor, the team that the Flyers envisioned for this season has never played a game.

Adam Fox did want to go to the Rangers , he wouldn’t sign with Carolina and forced a trade. Since he was a college guy they were gonna lose him for nothing , he has a buddy on the Rangers and that’s where he was gonna sign as an UFA, so Carolina just ended up trading him to where he wanted to go.

The thing with Kakko and Lafraniere is ,since they are on a pretty good team, they are being worked into the lineup properly  and there is not slot of pressure on them .
 

unfortunately  we have sucked for 10 years and our young guys were rushed into the NHL too soon , like Patrick and guys Like Meyers ,Sanheim and Provy were given too much responsibility and have not developed as to their potential or totally regressed.  Giroux is the last young guy we drafted who actually developed to his initial potential. He came in as a rookie with a team that had veteran leadership and goal scoring coming from Hartnell, Briere,Gagne,Carter and Richards, etc ,so he didn’t have to be a primary guy. It’s so frustrating to see this team have the same problems for ten years. Lots of injuries and repeat injuries not only to roster players but to almost every first round pick we made. Ten game losing streaks every year, new coach every few years, players that disappear for weeks at a time. Players look great and then the next year they suddenly forget how to play. Maybe we need a Pronger style guy to lead this team, but that  is tough to find these days.

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2 hours ago, radoran said:

Quite frankly, the roster revamp ol' Fletch has attempted since looks quite similar to what the Rangers did - the issue is that key pieces of that revamp missed significant amounts of time this season. We may not like some of the parts acquired, but Ellis, Hayes, Ristolainen, Atkinson, Braun isn't all that different from Strome, Goodrow, Reaves, Trouba, Lindgren.

 

To your point about luck playing a factor, the team that the Flyers envisioned for this season has never played a game.

Starting to get distinct "we won the trade" vibes from the assertions that the Flyers would have been good had Ellis not gotten injured.

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1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

Adam Fox did want to go to the Rangers , he wouldn’t sign with Carolina and forced a trade. Since he was a college guy they were gonna lose him for nothing , he has a buddy on the Rangers and that’s where he was gonna sign as an UFA, so Carolina just ended up trading him to where he wanted to go.

The thing with Kakko and Lafraniere is ,since they are on a pretty good team, they are being worked into the lineup properly  and there is not slot of pressure on them .
 

unfortunately  we have sucked for 10 years and our young guys were rushed into the NHL too soon , like Patrick and guys Like Meyers ,Sanheim and Provy were given too much responsibility and have not developed as to their potential or totally regressed.  Giroux is the last young guy we drafted who actually developed to his initial potential. He came in as a rookie with a team that had veteran leadership and goal scoring coming from Hartnell, Briere,Gagne,Carter and Richards, etc ,so he didn’t have to be a primary guy. It’s so frustrating to see this team have the same problems for ten years. Lots of injuries and repeat injuries not only to roster players but to almost every first round pick we made. Ten game losing streaks every year, new coach every few years, players that disappear for weeks at a time. Players look great and then the next year they suddenly forget how to play. Maybe we need a Pronger style guy to lead this team, but that  is tough to find these days.

i think that's key word that this team that has been missing for years, pronger aka big time proven star. if you look at the rangers, lightning, hurricanes they have all have in common a big time proven star.

 

i mean let's say we get a kane and drew doughty, i think they would make this team a contender.

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8 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

i think that's key word that this team that has been missing for years, pronger aka big time proven star. if you look at the rangers, lightning, hurricanes they have all have in common a big time proven star.

 

i mean let's say we get a kane and drew doughty, i think they would make this team a contender.

One thing that has bothered me for years is we don’t have even one consistent line. Our guys can’t even complete a simple breakout and rush up ice, we can’t complete more than two passes on a play inside the offensive zone. Other teams make tic tac toe , highlight reel passing plays, one timers and exciting goals. All our goals are off a scrum or a broken play. Other teams players seem to know exactly where to go and where their teammates are and create beautiful setups.  Our guys skate on top of each other while moving up ice and pass the puck into each other’s skates. It’s so painfully boring to watch this team. I really think it’s a total lack of chemistry among the players, we compiled a bunch of guys that just don’t fit with each other. How many years did we have Jake and Giroux on the same line. Two guys that are always passing and never shoot, yet we never thought to split them up and draft a shooter to complement their passing game. 

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All this Rangers love is annoying. They got lucky. They won the lottery too remember when they really shouldn't have. Their big move imo was hiring Gallant. Flyers hire Gallant instead of AV we'd be having a different conversation today, I'm sure of it. 

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1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

The thing with Kakko and Lafraniere is ,since they are on a pretty good team, they are being worked into the lineup properly  and there is not slot of pressure on them .

 

Kaapo is on the first line.

 

Lafreniere is playing third line minutes.

 

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

Lots of injuries and repeat injuries not only to roster players but to almost every first round pick we made.

 

That's just factually incorrect.

 

There have been injuries, but not to "almost every" first round pick.

 

I'm not at all happy with where the team is and feel that they have mismanaged themselves terribly for a decade. I just don't buy into some of the hyperbole here.

 

They tried to build around two guys - Giroux and Voracek - who were not goal scorers and they never provided the Panarin-type goal scorer to compliment them. They overvalued their draft picks and rushed them. They never wanted to undertake the actual rebuild that they needed and chased the "anything can happen" dragon.

 

I'm on board with all of that.

 

But to say that the Rangers are some sort of example to follow when they've won absolutely nothing through their process, I'll take issue with.

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1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said:

 

Starting to get distinct "we won the trade" vibes from the assertions that the Flyers would have been good had Ellis not gotten injured.

 

I'm not at all saying that. I'm staying that they never iced the team that they intended to ice when they revamped the roster.

 

And they haven't.

 

That's just factually true.

 

I'm not guaranteeing that Ellis makes them a better squad, I would, however, have liked to see it.

 

Pretending as if losing a top pair defenceman and a second line center (who I think is overrated) had no effect on what happened on the ice doesn't work for me.

 

And I've been one of the more consistently critical people on this board for ten years.

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