Trade Talk Bobrovsky Trade Talk

[jammer2]

I'll take albertaflyer's analysis on Peckham, he certainly gets to see more of that team than most of us. In a nutshell, it just seems like trading Bob would create a bigger hole than we are trying to fill. Sure, we need physical, good skating d-men....so does the rest of the league. I say be patient, try to develop what you have and fill in the hole with Phantoms if necessary. The difference between a respectable back up and a bum is playoffs or no playoffs... just to much at risk for my liking. Trading Bob is trying to get to cute....keep him unless a "knock your socks off" offer comes over Homer's desk. The other factor is Bryz's meltdowns....what if this happens during the playoffs? Do we really want to go to Leighton or some other stiff in an elimination situation? Mind you, Bob has little playoff experience, but I trust him much, much more than anything we have currently in the system.

[aziz]

I noticed aziz you mentioned bob is getting a game a week ......... Hmmmm that surely gives him more than 15 starts. Just sayin.

true. 8 weeks into the season and bob has 6 starts. so...on a pace for 24-ish? yes, that's more than i figured he'd get. i also have a feeling it may be more than he should, if the primary goal is to have bryzgalov running on all cylinders. i've said it before: goalies need to play. the closer you get to evening up the starts between the two, the more you make it so neither goalie can establish a rhythm. it is no coincidence that both of bryzgalov's lost-in-the-woods stretches immediately followed starts by bobrovsky...bob's first start on oct 18 was followed by 3 games bryzgalov couldn't get his sv% over .840, the intial lost in the woods era. bob's most recent start on nov 19th was followed by two games bryzgalov's sv% was < .872. he's only had 15 starts so far, but the pattern to date is bryzgalov is at his worst following games he did not play.

Sure looks as if bob is being given a chance to prove himself.

yeah, it does. i have to ask, though: to what end?

in an ideal, prefect, nirvana-inducing utopian world, the flyers find some way to clense themselves of the bryzgalov contract and bob gets 4 of 5 starts the rest of the way. to the extent that isn't possible, however, the flyers need to create the best situation for bryzgalov's success. that doesn't involve encouraging active competition between bob and bryzgalov for starts. when you are talking about forwards where a big determining factor is simple willingness to work hard, competition for icetime is a good thing. goaltending, however, is a head game, and having a guy wonder after every goal against if he may have just lost his job doesn't help anyone. unless holmgren sees some way out from under the deal he so foolishly gave bryzgalov, the message needs to be, "this is your team, this is your job. you'll be given all the work you need to get yourself on track, now settle down and pull it together," and then play him in 5 straight.

there's just no percentage in leaving the starts up for grabs. so long as the team is locked into one guy, anyway.

[doom88]

No one including Comcast will care if Bob not Bryz is winning. Wins = revenue.

[terp]

that doesn't involve encouraging active competition between bob and bryzgalov for starts.

I would refer to this as "coddling" Bryzgalov. This sends the wrong message to the goaltender and the team. Bryzgalov was the starter when the team broke camp. He had the resume and every opportunity to solidify that status. He hasn't done it. Now Laviolette is supposed to coddle him and his big contract? Hmm. Looks like Lavy thinks otherwise.

[aziz]

This sends the wrong message to the goaltender and the team.

that's a nice principle to stand on, but it's also a good way to make a mess of your goaltending situation. a goaltender who is worried goal by goal and game by game about his position on the depth chart is a goalie who is distracted and unfocused. goaltending is not about working hard, it is about being in the right mental frame to effectively read plays and makes saves. you challange your #1 center by suggesting someone else might take his ice time; the result is a center who works harder, gets his hands dirty and hopefully becomes more effective for it. you challange your #1 goalie by suggesting someone else might take his start; the result is a goalie who is twitchy and nervous and who can't put an unlucky goal behind him and move on. witness the snowball effect we've seen with bryzgalov each time bob gets a start.

ryan miller can have a bad stretch of games and he is not in danger of losing his #1 status. lundqvist is not being challenged to keep his game at a high level with the threat that biron might become new york's starter. you do not deal with goalies like you do skaters, which is to say you do not hold the starting position to an open and ongoing tryout. you pick a guy and go with him unless he seriously and completely breaks down. it's not coddling, it is the reality of the position and the fact that it is far more about mental balance than it is physical effort.

[aziz]

No one including Comcast will care if Bob not Bryz is winning. Wins = revenue.

have you worked in corporate america?

when snider is called before the board of directors next summer and he is asked, "so, we made a $51mil investment last year, how is that working out? are we getting a good ROI on it?" and he answers, "well, not really. i mean, by the end of th season he was only playing games now and then, we have this other guy who is way way cheaper and seems to be much better, so...we're kinda just sitting on that $51mil guy, he isn't doing much for us," how do you think the suits are going to react? you think it'll be, "oh, that's cool, no big"? or do you think it'll be, "what the **** are you talking about?? you told us so long as we spent this money we were set. you told us we had to do this, and now you're saying we could just as well set that $51mil on fire and been in the same situation??"

keep in mind these are not normal people. they are people who pay someone to read their email to them aloud and can't be bothered to even record their own voicemail greetings. what you are saying makes sense, but the people ed snider answers to do not specialize in making sense. they specialize in obsessing about money, and will obsess about the money the flyers wasted on bryzgalov. the fact the fl;yers are winning with bob will only highlight the poor poor recommendation ed snider made to them about bryzgalov.

[doom88]

aziz, relax. If it comes to that, Homer will unload Bryz just like Carter and Richards. I see what you're saying, but I bet they are more bottom line guys. Hey, that hockey thing, how much did we make this year? A bad ROI is tolerable if there is income. Now if they lose money and Bryz rides the pine...look out.

[Damaged Goods]

There is no goalie controversy and the Flyers won't be making any major moves in the near future (nor should they). The Flyers are in a comfortable position where they can let the roster get healthy, continue to define player roles in the wake of all the roster turn-over and evaluate things until the trade deadline.

[hf101]

true. 8 weeks into the season and bob has 6 starts. so...on a pace for 24-ish? yes, that's more than i figured he'd get. i also have a feeling it may be more than he should, if the primary goal is to have bryzgalov running on all cylinders. i've said it before: goalies need to play. the closer you get to evening up the starts between the two, the more you make it so neither goalie can establish a rhythm. it is no coincidence that both of bryzgalov's lost-in-the-woods stretches immediately followed starts by bobrovsky...bob's first start on oct 18 was followed by 3 games bryzgalov couldn't get his sv% over .840, the intial lost in the woods era. bob's most recent start on nov 19th was followed by two games bryzgalov's sv% was < .872. he's only had 15 starts so far, but the pattern to date is bryzgalov is at his worst following games he did not play.

I'm not buying your explanation aziz, Bryz's poor performance cannot just be blamed for bob's starts. For example bob started on Nov 3 and Bryz played on Nov 5 and played just fine.

What appears to be much more significant in how well Bryz plays has more to do with the absense of Pronger. Pronger was injured on Oct 24th. The games following were Bryz's worst. Then Pronger's most recent last game was Nov 19. the following two starts for Bryz were again horrible.

[Lindbergh31]

I'm not buying your explanation aziz, Bryz's poor performance cannot just be blamed for bob's starts. For example bob started on Nov 3 and Bryz played on Nov 5 and played just fine.

What appears to be much more significant in how well Bryz plays has more to do with the absense of Pronger. Pronger was injured on Oct 24th. The games following were Bryz's worst. Then Pronger's most recent last game was Nov 19. the following two starts for Bryz were again horrible.

Bryzgalov has to get use to all of the defensemen playing in front of him. He wanted to be paid as one of the highest paid goalies then he better start playing like one. It will take time for this team to jell, hopefully Holmgren doesn't start panicking and trading young players away.

[idahophilly]

I think with the Bryz meltdown this is why we keep Bob... Bryz will be fine later IMO but every point counts and Bob has gotten us 4 out of 6 in the past 3 games.

[aziz]

@doom

aziz, relax. If it comes to that, Homer will unload Bryz just like Carter and Richards.

i'm relaxed, didn't mean to come off as stressed. thanksgiving get away in a small log cabin on a lake with my brothers and their 3 children sub-5 yearold children. i was a little twitchy myself come sunday night.

my point is that the flyers have lopped off a big chunk of their cap space for their goalie. obviously, the downside is that is cap space that can't be used elsewhere. the upside is it should put goaltending questions to rest and allow the designated #1 guy the room to get comfortable and work through problems without being paranoid of losing his job should he had a rough patch. again, goaltending is a head game, and the more a team can help clear their goalies's heads, the better. playing a "get it done now or you sit" game is specifically not taking advantage of the opportunity provided by the signing.

as for unloading bryazgalov just like carter and richards, that's an easier thing to say than do. those two guys' NTC/NMC hadn't kicked in yet...i'm pretty sure bryzgalov's NMC is in effect right now, no? and if bryzgalov can't keep his job in philly, who is going to want him and his NMC-laden $5.75mil/yr 9 year deal? even if he can be convinced to accept a trade? the unloading of bryzgalov is, imo, a dream that doesn't hold up to reality. he is in philly for a long long time, and to me it should be a primary goal of the team to make sure they leverage that investment to maximum benefit.

now, i could be wrong. if somehow holmgren can move bryzgalov, by all means do it and do it now. trade him for picks. the only thing i'd want back for him is cap space and a clear path to bob getting a real and extended audition as the flyers' #1. i'm just having a tough time seeing how it can happen.

[aziz]

@hf

I'm not buying your explanation aziz, Bryz's poor performance cannot just be blamed for bob's starts. For example bob started on Nov 3 and Bryz played on Nov 5 and played just fine.

well, bryzgalov has had 7 games with a sv% under .900, and 6 of those came following starts by bob. he's had a couple good games following starts by bob, sure, but 6/7ths of his bad games happened in those situations.

i partially agree, bryzgalov's poor performance is not completely because of splitting starts. part of it is he is easily distracted and seems particularly vulnerable to losing focus for stretches. his backup taking starts certainly appears to exasperate that vulnerability, though. pronger not being around factors in, i'm sure, but pronger was around for the first lost-in-the-woods episode.

[Bakanekimiwa]

i think what's getting lost in this argument of who starts when and how many times is that bob hasn't exactly been stellar this year either. for those who thought he should have been named the starter this year, before we went and got bryz, bob has struggled as much as bryz. of course, there have been games where bob was excellent as there were times bryz was excellent. the one thing i can agree with is that bryz needs to be given the majority of starts. he's being paid to be the #1 and they need to see what he can do as that. that means putting him out there night after night, whether he stinks up the joint or not.

i'm not really sure what lavy is trying to do with the goaltending situation right now, but i think he's playing with fire as far as his job goes. i know he just wants to win games, but instead of taking it one game at a time with the goalies, he needs to look at the big picture.

[aziz]

agreed, bak. and i'd go so far as to say bob's problem is the same as bryzgalov's: most goalies are better when they are feeling secure about their position on the depth chart. continuous competition where a bad goal or a bad game can result in the goalie being back on the bench for an extended period is not constructive for anyone. the opportunity to put a bad goal or a bad game or a bad stretch behind them and move forward is key to a goalie keeping his head on straight and delivering quality starts over the long haul. a goalie who is kept on edge with an axe hanging over his head all the time is going to struggle.

[terp]

that's a nice principle to stand on, but it's also a good way to make a mess of your goaltending situation. a goaltender who is worried goal by goal and game by game about his position on the depth chart is a goalie who is distracted and unfocused.

The two examples you mention, Miller and in particular Lundqvist, have been models of consistency. The focus they rely upon to fuel their play comes from within, not from being pampered and stroked by someone else. I think you can extend this notion to the rest of the positions too: the guys who play consistently well have the focus and the mental strength to get it done night in and night out. Those without those traits do in fact have to worry about where they stand on the depth chart. No exceptions.

NHL coaches as a group are pretty good at motivating players or they wouldn't be where they are. I suspect very few believe that players perform best when they are "comfortable" and don't have to worry about anyone behind them on the depth chart. In fact, this kind of thinking is mostly anathema in pro sports, probably because it doesn't work but also because it serves as a bad example for everyone else. I think Laviolette in particular is very, very unlikely to take a "the comfortable player is a productive player" attitude. I think he will try to give a struggling player a break to get him going but he's not going to give anyone an indefinite pass if he isn't playing well.

So in Bryzgalov's case, I think you'll see him get 90% of the starts when he man's up and starts to play like he's capable of playing. Until then, I think we'll se Bob start up to 50% of the games. He'll be the starter if Bryzgalov doesn't wake up.

[Lindbergh31]

i think what's getting lost in this argument of who starts when and how many times is that bob hasn't exactly been stellar this year either. for those who thought he should have been named the starter this year, before we went and got bryz, bob has struggled as much as bryz. of course, there have been games where bob was excellent as there were times bryz was excellent. the one thing i can agree with is that bryz needs to be given the majority of starts. he's being paid to be the #1 and they need to see what he can do as that. that means putting him out there night after night, whether he stinks up the joint or not.

i'm not really sure what lavy is trying to do with the goaltending situation right now, but i think he's playing with fire as far as his job goes. i know he just wants to win games, but instead of taking it one game at a time with the goalies, he needs to look at the big picture.

I think Bryzgalov should get between 55 and 60 games with the rest going to Bobrovsky. That way he'll be fresh for the playoffs. If Bryzgalov has a bad game then Lavy has to come back with him to give him a chance to redeem himself. Reese is definitely going to earn his money this year with these two goalies.

[aziz]

@terp

The two examples you mention, Miller and in particular Lundqvist, have been models of consistency.

that just isn't true, assuming you mean by that that they never have bad games or go through multi-game slumps. of course they do, all goalies do. if you take a glace at game logs for either over the years, you'll see plenty of stretches where each was fighting it, 4, 5, 6 games of sub .900sv% performances. thing is, at no point was there even a thought that the coach might change horses. game or two off here or there? sure, but both of them knew that they'd ultimately be allowed to work through the problems and get themselves back on track. roy had bad times, brodeur, everyone.

most recently is miller. his last three games before the concussion, he posted a .727sv%, a .839, and a .864. terrible numbers. GAA somewhere around 5.00 for the stretch. do you think he was threatened with losing his job? think he was challenged to either get his **** together or watch from the bench for 4 of 5 the rest of the way as enroth was given the driver's seat? of course not. he's buffalo's starter, and could work towards finding his game with that assurance in mind.

NHL coaches as a group are pretty good at motivating players or they wouldn't be where they are.

ok, but what you aren't appreciating is the difference between a goalie and a skater. a goalie playing poorly rarely has anything to do with "motivation". i can promise you bryzgalov wants to play well and win more than anything else in the world, a goalie can't get lost in the crowd, can't just be "invisible", every goal against has 18,000 people watching his mistake, every loss has his name in the summerized box score. a skater, in contrast, having a bad time *is* about motivation as often as not. when JVR is ineffective, it's because he isn't skating hard and isn't getting himself into the spots he needs to be in to contribute. threatening him with reduced icetime can go some distance towards solving the problem.

bottom line, you are lumping goalies into a generic "professional athletes" group with everyone else, assuming the things that make them tick are the same as everyone else, but the things that determine success or failure for a goalie are completely different. carrot and stick doesn't work with them. having the focus to make saves has zero to do with motivation and everything to do with what kind of headspace the guy is in. it is a mental position, and if you start screwing with a goalie's head in some misplaced attempt to "motivate" them, you really are setting the stage for disaster.

[terp]

assuming you mean by that that they never have bad games or go through multi-game slumps.

No, that isn't what I mean and I think you know me well enough to know that. All goaltenders go through slumps but I doubt there are a lot of them in the NHL who take comfort in the belief that there are no consequences to prolonged slumps. For example, if Ryan Miller comes off the IR and continues to suck, Lindy Ruff is not going to watch the team go through a prolonged slump because he doesn't want to mess with Ryan Miller's head. He's going to give Jhonas Enroth more starts and it will go from there. Knowing what I know about Miller, I'd guess that he'd then get his head together and get back to being a world class player. If he doesn't, I think he would expect to spend more time sitting on the bench with a hat on his head. He's a professional and he understands that if he sucks, he sits.

bottom line, you are lumping goalies into a generic "professional athletes" group with everyone else, assuming the things that make them tick are the same as everyone else, but the things that determine success or failure for a goalie are completely different.

Yes, I am. I don't doubt that there are others who share this point of view but I think this is a distinctly minority view. The point of view seems to be that unlike virtually every other athlete, goaltenders thrive on comfort rather than pressure and that while we can expect them to handle the pressure of over time in game #7 of the Cup finals, they wilt under the possibility of losing their status as starter if they go through a prolonged slump. They have to scratch and claw their way through the ranks of youth hockey, juniors or college, minor league hockey and then in the NHL, though once they become NHL starters, they can't hack competition anymore. Maybe this adds up in the world of Roman Cechmanek or Ilya Bryzgalov, but I think it is a minority point of view even among elite goaltenders and more importantly, among NHL head coaches. Lavy may be conscious of Bryzgalov's fragile emotional state, but tough love is about the best Bryzgalov can hope for.

[aziz]

the team is going to receive inconsistent goaltending so long as there remain questions about who the guy is. revisiting that question every time someone stumbles will ensure things remain a hit or miss mess. if the guy is bob, go with bob, assuming management will allow it. if not, get bryzgalov out there and let him figure things out.

it's like making a chess player do pushups for allowing his queen to be taken and thinking that "motivation" will help.

the only saving grace to the terrible bryzgalov signing, to my mind, was that we could finally get past that annual, "hey, look, all our goalies suck," thing that resulted from the goaltending yo-yo that reduced everyone to twitching messes who figured each goal against was the end of their season. each bad goal is dwelled on leading to more bad goals leading to bad games, which are dwelled on leading to more bad goals untill we are starting michael leighton in the playoffs.

i had hoped it was over. looks like maybe not. which means we are in litterally the same spot we've been forever. we need a number one goalie, not an eternal open tryout. it'd be nice if it were as simple as saying, "hey, you, try harder!" but it just isn't.

[doom88]

I think Bob is mentally tougher than Bryz, and after surviving last season, Bob is excited to even be in competition for the #1. Whether it's actually an open discussion is another story, but I'm sure Bob is in a frame of mind such that if he continues to work hard, he'll continue to get a good look. Lavy is doing the right thing by cultivating an environment that hard work and success is rewarded. You'd hope that Bryz wakes up, figures this out, and earns it back.

[brelic]

This is from Seravalli yesterday...

http://www.philly.co...ck-to-back.html

There are two ways you can take Bob's quotes. One, that he is driven and ambitious and will fight for number 1 even if we're supposed to have a bona fide number 1 with Bryzgalov. I like that attitude. It shows that he wants it, and Laviolette seems to be the kind of guy that rewards that kind of attitude when it's backed up by solid play. Honestly, I don't agree with Seravalli at all that Bryz should basically be handed the keys to the team. If he wants to be number 1, then he needs to play like it. Period.

The other way you can take Bob's quotes is that if he doesn't become number 1 over the next few years, he could be very frustrated. Doesn't seem like the type to be happy in a backup role. Plus, I find it a bit odd that he's not willing to learn from Bryz. So much for Russian mentorship.

Anyway, poor article from Servalli in my opinion. Just sounds like an apologist read for the Bryz signing.

And unless Bobrovsky's string of starts has been an audition for a team like Columbus, where the Blue Jackets have been searching for a replacement for Steve Mason, his increased playing time has sent the wrong message - even if he has played well.

For one, it allows doubt to creep into the head of Bryzgalov, someone who has been known to be mentally fragile throughout his NHL career. And it has allowed Bobrovsky to believe he is the man for the job.

"I'm definitely playing to be No. 1 and not sit on the bench and watch someone else play," Bobrovsky told reporters with the help of a translator. "I'm hoping I will be No. 1."

In an interview early this month with Russian publication All Hockey, as translated by BroadStreetHockey.com, Bobrovsky said he does not speak with Bryzgalov about hockey.

"I'm not asking for advices," Bobrovsky said in translation. "I don't see much sense in that. I'm not 14 anymore. I already know how to prepare for games and what to do. I have my own style and my own vision for the game."

Edited November 29, 2011 by brelic

[terp]

@brelic

Makes me wonder if Frank Seravalli is in fact aziz.

[aziz]

@brelic

Makes me wonder if Frank Seravalli is in fact aziz.

lol.

i made too big a deal out of this yesterday. my only point is that i want the team to make a desicion and go with it. i want the team to go into march with the idea that a particular guy is begining to tune his game for the post season, not with the flyers' usual "we're not sure who is going to go come april, we'll use the last 10 games to decide." in the short term, bob is my choice by a long ways...but bryzgalov has left the team with $5.75mil less talent among the 18 skaters, and it seems to me it would be wise to maximize the return on that. either way, pick one and let them drive. who ever it is will absolutely run into potholes along the way, but that shouldn't lead to constant second guessing. at least from the coaching staff ('cause there's no stopping the fanbase from second guessing, especially about the goalies).

at least give me this: there is something to be said for allowing a goalie to work through problems in his game rather than playing musical starters each time someone runs into a problem.

[radoran]

The guy who owns the car handed the keys to Bryzgalov.

Bryzgalov wasn't Homer's call - it was Snider's. The NMC means he's not going anywhere (can't demote him) and the likelihood of a trade is Quite Small.

I like Bryzgalov, but the nine-year deal at that number is IMO too much. Of course, MO means two things: jack and squat.

Another important thing to remember: Laviolette doesn't have a nine-year, NMC deal and Snider has shown that he's got no problem canning coaches.

Bryz should start at least 60-65 games for this team. He will go up and down - and aziz is absolutely right that all goalies do go up and down.

Trade Bob? If you get the right offer, you trade anybody.