Trade Talk How can some of you say Webber wont help enough to be worth big $$

[SoCalFlyfan]

@RonJeremy

The Rangers blueprint is not so much personnel, but coaching. Tortorella has these guys being accountable all over the ice and their defensemen rarely pinch like ours do every shift. I cant recall how many times a game I see Timonen,Carle, and Mezaros pinching in the offensive zone and Matt Read or Giroux trying to cover on defense. it just looks sloppy. Add to that a goalie who can't be relied upon to stop a floater from the blueline and it's a recipe for having to win games with a score of 6-5 every night.

[aziz]

Tortorella has these guys being accountable all over the ice and their defensemen rarely pinch like ours do every shift.

that's neither good nor bad, imo... it's just a stylistic difference. there is a price to pay each way. the rags are in the lower half of the league offensively, and a conservative defence is part of the reason. the flyers are second in the league offensively, and a blue line that is heavily involved in the offense is a major reason why.

tell those dmen to hold their line, and you will see the flyers goal production drop off in a hurry... and they don't have the goal tending to support a low scoring system.

[RonJeremy]

I know the Rangers sytem and great goaltender are a big part of it, but their dmen, actually know how to play defense,they are physical and block lots of shots, we rarely get second and third chances at Lunquist. Our dmen, make boneheaded turnovers, and stand there while watching the opposition crash our net and bang in rebounds. Its not like our dmen are caught pinching , its seems to me most goals we give up are from poor positional play and scramables in front, letting guys bull their way in frotn and not punishing them

[RonJeremy]

So let me ask this, if we cant get a guy like Webber, then who can we get , who do you guys think can help our team? I dont think there is any denying we need at least one more defensively sound blue liner. Are there any good young dmen that might be available for a good young forward?

[aziz]

I dont think there is any denying we need at least one more defensively sound blue liner.

honestly, imo, if the flyers can get decent goaltending, then the current d corps is fine. if the flyers can't get decent goaltending, then no changes on the blue line will matter.

maybe a hal gill would allow more flexibility, as a shutdown option sitting 6/7 with a more mobile rookie and swapping them in and out as appropriate for the night's/ series's opponent

[terp]

I cant recall how many times a game I see Timonen,Carle, and Mezaros pinching in the offensive zone and Matt Read or Giroux trying to cover on defense. it just looks sloppy.

This is by design. You may not like this stye of play but it is the style of play the Cane's played when they won the Cup. It is an aggressive style that frees the defensemen to pursue the puck deep if they are in a position to do it and if its done correctly, it leads to offense. You may have noticed that very often the forward that goes back will head to the bench and the Flyers will send out another defenseman. They occasionally get in a situation where the forward is playing "D" but no system is without its vulnerabilities.

[terp]

Our dmen, make boneheaded turnovers, and stand there while watching the opposition crash our net and bang in rebounds. Its not like our dmen are caught pinching , its seems to me most goals we give up are from poor positional play and scramables in front, letting guys bull their way in frotn and not punishing them

You pick personnel to suit the team's style of play. It is true that the Flyers' defensemen aren't the most physical but as a group they are fast, good at moving the puck and able to jump into the play in transition. The Rangers defensemen are not as good at these things but are great at knocking people down in the crease.

I would agree that the Flyers' defense is out of balance in that they miss the dimension Pronger brings for 25 minutes a night. They could use him back in the line up for sure. But that doesn't mean that the rest of their defensemen need to change their style of play. They need to cut down the turnovers I think but that mostly applies to Bourdon and Lilja. The rest aren't perfect but they make up a pretty reliable group.

BTW, I think this illustrates why we don't need Suter: he doesn't hit hard enough or scare opponents enough to make him worth $7MM to a team that is trying to replace Pronger. They need to spend their money on a guy who brings a bit more of an edge.

[RonJeremy]

Using the defense to create offense would be great except for one thing, our dmen cant shoot worth a damn, some of them are godd passers, but the shooting is a horror show. Look at how many wide open shots our dmen missed in the last few games alone, Carle has a weak shot that constantly gets blocked, half the time he lets a limp wrister go when a forward is rushing him and it ends up blocked, instead of just winding it back in, Coburn hits the glass with every shot, Timmo constantly misses the net from 30 feet out between the circles, Mezzz has a canon, but is inconsistent, Bourdon was supposed to have a big shot, but i havent seen him really fire away yet, and Gus hasnt played enough to get a read on him.

[SoCalFlyfan]

@terp-

Here's an analogy for why we don't need Weber:

A month ago I bought a Macbook Pro. It looked great, was built like a tank, and did what I needed it to do. The problem was, in the end it was overpriced for what it actually did. It went back to the store and it was replaced by a Lenovo with a better processor, more ram, better graphics and keyboard for less than half the price. With the money saved I'll then get an ipad3 for my Mac fix and still would have paid less for both.

The moral of the story is for 8 million a year we can get a decent physical d-man, a better replacement for Carle and some spare change to address other needs and still end up in the same place. Do we really want 16 million wrapped up in 2 guys ...with one of them negating the strength of the other ?

[mojo1917]

So let me ask this, if we cant get a guy like Webber, then who can we get , who do you guys think can help our team? I dont think there is any denying we need at least one more defensively sound blue liner. Are there any good young dmen that might be available for a good young forward?

I believe Barrett Jackman out in St Louis is a free agent this year, he could be had maybe for coburn money, he's pretty mobile and has a nasty streak that everyone in town seems to miss, he'd be a good guy to pair with Carle or (if he resigns here) Metzaros and would give us a young mobile and physical top 4 guys, with timmonen in the mix for another year and a Guss/MAB. Jackman comes with leadership qualities too. probably won't happen, but imo i think he'd be a good flyer.

[terp]

Here's an analogy for why we don't need Weber:

I'm a Weber fan but we'll never get him without gutting the team. He's not an option. Suter may be an option but he's not the best option because while he's a fine player, he's not really what we need. Per your analogy, for $7MM there are better ways to improve the team.

[canoli]

if the flyers can get decent goaltending, then the current d corps is fine. if the flyers can't get decent goaltending, then no changes on the blue line will matter.

There it is. Or, in forum-speak, "this."

Look no further back than last night. We got the goaltending. Bob gave up 3, but 1 was off Coburn's skate (i think it was his skate) and another was after Kimmo fell on top of him. The rest of the way Bob made the stops we needed him to make. Our offense was greatly enhanced by Meszaros joining the rush - esp in the 1st - and we pretty much owned the Leafs all game. The times we didn't own them, when it was more even - early in the 2nd, early in the 3rd - Bob was solid.

Contrast that with the Rags' game last weekend. Bryz shuts the door for 18 minutes, looks good...and then the wheels come off and he gives up 2 backbreaking goals to give them the lead and the game.

Yes there are always other factors, and it's a Team win / Team loss. But solid goaltending - as opposed to Brzygalov-type goaltending this year - makes all the difference.

[aziz]

@canoli

yup.. and, i think, the defense is a favorite scapegoat in philly. while the guys have a tendancy to the occasional oopsy in their own end, especially carle, it isn't rampant, we aren't talking brian mccabe levels. the fact the flyers are in the top third of the league in shots allowed says a lot, imo. they tend to not allow shooting galleries. it happens now and then, but that's true for any team.

better players are better players, and upgrades on the blueline are certainly possible, but i'm actually pretty ok with the squad the team has right now. 2nd highest point total in the east, fifth highest in the league, with one of the least successful goaltending tandems in the league is an impressive thing to manage. tighten up in net and i don't see a real problem.

[Podein25]

Upgrades on the blueline are certainly possible, but i'm actually pretty ok with the squad the team has right now.

This.

People should be pretty pleased with the development of Bourdon and Gus. I thought Bourdon was particularly good last night. His hockey IQ is clearly high. And he is mobile. And calm. He makes mistakes but all young D-men do. The point is, you have to be willing to develop them by having them play NHL minutes. For years people whined about us not develping D-men. Those same people cannot now whine about the mistakes they make.

Carle, on the other hand, has no excuse. He's lousy.

[mojo1917]

Carle, on the other hand, has no excuse. He's lousy.

I know, right ?

[JackStraw]

Carle, on the other hand, has no excuse. He's lousy

Hater.

[aziz]

reported

[JackStraw]

donald.

[aziz]

richard