Trade Talk How can some of you say Webber wont help enough to be worth big $$

[RonJeremy]

There have been countless posts about improving the defense, and some of you here argue that Webber will not make enough of an impact to be worth a big long term contract and to give up some good players to get him. Do any of you recall how much of a better team we are when Pronger is in the lineup? The only dman out there , that may be available who is close to Prongers style, is Webber. One franchise dman makes a world of difference in many areas. The PP, penalty kill, physical play, he makes his defensive partner a better player, and overall team confidence. We are a completely different team with Pronger and we can be that good team again with Webber.

We gave Pronger a huge long term deal at the age of 35, Webber is 26, there is a big difference there. Right now we lack a PP QB, a big accurate point shot for the PP, a skilled offenisive dman, a dominant physical dman and an overall leader for the blueline, Webber provides all of that in one package. I think the best move for us, is to try and work a deal with Nashville, and if that fails, then put out a big offer sheet for Webber and hope Nashville cant match it. then we also sign another big bruiser like Bryan Allen in the offseason.

If that scenario fails, then we should try and copy the Rangers defense and just have a real defensively sound bluline from 1-6 without any real superstar back there, but just a group of hard working guys who actually know how to play defense or who have the potential to be real good in a year or two..

We may have to go out and trade for some young guys who might have fallen into disfavor with their current teams, maybe Schenn, Bogosian, PK Subban, guys like that. There is another dman that I think has great potential and thas Cody Franson, I believe he is an UFA and to me he is worth looking at. He is a monster and is also a right hander ,toronto stole him in a trade with Nashville.Either way, we need to add two dmen to this team, and if it means sealing JVR, then so be it. Its much harder to find good dmen than it is to find, a forward. Look at how cotts stepped right in, its nearly impossible to draft a dman that is gonna step in at 18 and make an impact, unless its the next Dennis Potvin or Ray Bourque and your picking first in the draft.

[RonJeremy]

P.S. another UFA I would possibly target is johnny Boychuck form Boston. He is 6 ft 3 225 lbs and is a big hitter

[The Quigster]

Andy Sutton would be a cost effective,decent,not sell the farm investment. Livings legends,whose reputations precedes them,seldom live up to it. You guys remember Bryzo right?

[flyercanuck]

@

Weber is one of the two best defencemen inthe world. He's also not even in his prime as far as defencemen go. Bryzgalov is barely one of the two best goalies on his team.

[Irishjim]

the flyers problem is no cap space. if the new cba has a clause where we can get prongers salary off the cap than we can make an offer for weber. if not we have 5mil less to spend.

lappy and betts come off the books next season. jagr and carle are UFA, vorachek and borubon are RFA. if they let all six leave we can sign webar but the remaining 5 roster spots are filled with the ben holmstrom types.

nashville has tons of cap space and they will be able to match any offer we make. its gonna be tuff landing weber

[radoran]

I've heard the point made that if Nashville is going to be taken seriously as a franchise by both its fan base and potential FAs, they pretty much have to stop being a developmental team for "the big boys" and that keeping Weber AND Suter in front of Rinne is the best way to do so.

Add some even mid-level scoring fowards to that and you've got a consistent playoff team. A top FA signs there and they're on their way to being the next Dallas, Tampa or Carolina...

[Green Man]

As much as I would love it, Webber is not coming here.

[canoli]

Personally I wouldn't wish Bryzgalov on anyone in the NHL. Weber deserves better; why would he want to play in front of a goaltender who can't stop the puck? That has to cross his mind if and when he thinks about the Flyers. Everyone in hockey knows how Bryzgalov has fared so far; no one is expecting a sudden turnaround or a great PO run out of him. If anything that's when we should expect his worst. Good god imagine that, worse than he's already been.

[CoffeehousePorcupine]

I went to the Predators page on facebook and posted the Flyers fans Want of either Weber or Suter, this is what i was told. Webers Numbers drop off drastically without Suter and Suters Numbers drop off drastically without Weber, So any team going for ONE is a fool, you will need Both. Now it becomes a Cap issue if you wanna do that. So the Preds will make out like a bandit. If one goes they will get some good AND SIGNED players in return

[sekkes85]

For as much as you talk him up at least spell the man's name right....

Weber won't be going anywhere. He's a RFA and if they want to keep any fanbase they have will match whatever offer is thrown at him. The defenseman they have a legitimate change at losing is Suter. They already publicly said he won't be traded at the deadline (could just be a ploy to raise his value) and he will have the opportunity to cash in with another organization.

EVERY team in the league would love to acquire Weber but the thing is the Preds will own his rights at seasons end and will obviously have 1st dibs on him. As said in a previous post if you throw a huge contract for him you're going to give up 4 1st rounders. As much as an impact player he may be having that much cap tied up to a player AND the loss of picks you really need to be certain that player is going to a) fit into your system and B) worth the price in terms of both cap and picks.

I would love to see him in the O&B but that is an awful lot of commitment to a single player plus they could always match it anyways.

[Phillygrump]

I don't see the Preds keeping both Suter and Weber with the other young D talent they have and lack of scoring depth. If they sign Suter, they may be willing to part with Weber. If you can get Weber you got to do it. I think Suter will be the Pred in a different uniform next season and Weber will be the lifer in Nashville as long as he wants to stay. I had heard rumors before however that Weber was not necessarily happy in Nashville. An early post season exit for the Preds may frustrate him out of town. Maybe then he could be pried away in 2 years in UFA?

[canoli]

well said Sekke - plus, bringing in Weber won't help us if our goaltender lets shooters score at will. When shooters are allowed to simply push the puck through our goalie all the defense in the world isn't going to change the outcome. We're going to lose the game unless we can reliably score 5 goals or more, and that's just not realistic.

We need better goaltending. It's going to get harder to win games down the stretch with a swiss-cheese goaltender starting most of the games.

[doom88]

We need a sumo wrestler in net.

[aziz]

One franchise dman makes a world of difference in many areas.

when he's on the ice. 25 minutes, 30 if you really want to push him. there's a lot of icetime that he doesn't help with, at all.

btw, what happened to the preds a few nights ago? they have BOTH suter and weber, and still lost 4-1 to the flyers with their in-desperate-need-of-help defense. they were a collective -2, with 2 hits total. the both of them together didn't really make a world of difference in many areas, did they?

weber would help, and he would be worth a large dollar figure, sure...but you'd think at some point flyers fans would start to realize that individual big name aquisitions do not make night-and-day differences. i don't know how many reonick/forsberg/hatcher/briere/pronger/bryzgalov episodes we need to go through before that lesson is learned.

[RonJeremy]

AZIZ, how much of a better team are we with Pronger? and he played 25-30 mins, and our team was much better with him in the lineup. And the other free agents your comparing here like Foresberg, Roenick, Hatch were older guys and past their primes, and were not the absolute best at their positions as Webber is the best dman in hockey and he is 26 ,hes not old and washed up like most of the other FA's we signed. So i dont see how a dman like Webber wont have the same impact. as Pronger Anyone else, like Suter, Gleason, etc wont be as much of an impact or worth the big money.

The bottom line is this, Pronger is not coming back,how much longer can Timmo keep up the pace? Where are we getting a #1 and # 2 dman to replace these guys? We do not have any impact dmen in our system ,we have a couple of #5 and 6 guys. Even if we drafted a superstar dman tomorrow ,its 2-3 years before he makes an impact. So the only way we are going to improve the defense is by trade or free agency, we really have no choice. So many people are saying stand pat ,dont do anything. Well if i could get a jumpstart on a top dman, then im doing it now, we have to face it, we are going to give up some good players for a dman and /or some big $$. Good dmen are hard to come by, teams are not giving them away, we will end up overpaying for sure , but what choice do we have?

As i said in my other post, if we cant get a franchise dman, then maybe we just copy the Rangers and have a group of unspectacular, but defensively sound physical dmen. The Rangers dont have anyone flashy back there, but they sure can play defense, we have some skaters like Coburn,Carle, Gus, but they arent all that great defensively. So maybe we target some other guys who are not franchise guys, but can play solid defense, block shots and take the body.To me its much easier to draft a forward and have him step right in, like Read and Coots did, so JVR is easier to replace with a drafted player, getting an impact dman in the draft,who can step right in, is nearly impossible, especially drafting late in the round

[Phillygrump]

but you'd think at some point flyers fans would start to realize that individual big name aquisitions do not make night-and-day differences

They do make a big difference though aziz. Chara makes all the difference in the world for Boston and Pronger did the same for us.

I think if you can get a guy like Weber you go for it. Eventually Kimmo and Pronger will be done. Pronger probably already is. We can't compete realistically for a cup with the guys we have left.

I get what you're saying about the 25-30 minutes, but I look at it like pitching in baseball. You may have a bad ace in your rotation that would make a great number 2 pitcher if you got an ace. Slide everyone down one slot and add an ace and a marginal pitching staff gets much much better. (Unless you're the Phillies and you have 3 aces. That's just awesome.)

[canoli]

Good dmen are hard to come by, teams are not giving them away, we will end up overpaying for sure , but what choice do we have?

We can choose to not overpay. We can choose realistic evaluation over pipe-dream fantasy - meaning we can work with who we have, realize they're not scrubs and demand more from them, as opposed to hoping and praying that Weber/Suter/Whoever will swoop in and rescue us from soft goals.

Your point about Pronger is a good one - he made an immediate impact, and I was in favor of the deal at the time. If you recall, the year before we traded for him we were at the bottom of the NHL; we were a "house on fire," full of undisciplined play and practically zero team commitment. Pronger came in and provided "adult supervision" - he helped establish some pride and accountability; he woke us up from the nightmare of that losing season. But his impact after that has seen a sharp decline. We don't need that type of impact anymore; now we need our players to play better, especially our D men.

You say "Coburn, Carle, Gus...aren't that great defensively." Setting aside the fact that Gus is a rookie, Coburn is an excellent defender and Carle is no slouch either, though he does have more ups and downs, especially this year. Meszaros can play bigger but his season has gotten better. In other words, we have the players, good players. Let's concentrate on making our TEAM D better.

Of course no amount of Team D will compensate for a goaltender who lets the opposition simply push pucks through him but that's a separate issue. Meanwhile let's not overreact to the weak goaltending by bringing in yet another "savior."

[The Quigster]

If the Flyers had a real NHL level goalie these so called defensive issues would be minimal! The NHL is not a developmental league,its for real pros!

[RonJeremy]

You are saying we can work with what we have and demand more of them, thats easier said than done. How many years are we going to wait for our defensemen to step up, No matter how much Coburn or Carle can improve, neither are a #1 or #2 dman and neither has a good accurate point shot and neither are ever going to be overly physical. so your hoping for an act of god. I think Carle and Coburn would actually improve with less responsibility, by having a true #1 guy and cutting their ice time, thats where the improvment would come. Carle is actually having a good year offensively, but hes in a contract year, everyone has a career year at that point and then tails off after getting a big payday.

I agree that with our poor goaltending ,a dman cant help that, but, a few physical guys can keep our crease clear of opposing players. Our defense allows way too many players to camp out in front. Gus and Carle are incapable of moving anyone out, Timmo is not all that big either. Mez and Bourdon should be punishing guys, Coburn to a lesser degree. We have had JVR and Voracek on the point ,what does that say, for the shooting skills of our dmen? There is no way we can go into next season with this defense. We need an impact dman, no one we have is close to that. If we cant get an impact dman ,then we need to add two defensive stalwarts. In my mnd we need to add two more dmen to this team

[aziz]

I still don't buy it, still think the idea of the franchise dman is way overhyped. Thomas make all the difference in the world for Boston, not chara.

if a sensible deal can be made for weber, then great, do it. strong players are always a good thing, at any position. if the flyers don't have "it" without him, though, they won't have it with him, either. and if they do, then they would. incremental improvement, not night and day transformation.

as for making the entire d corps stronger... the only thing it does is shift everyone down one spot. which means it would mean the flyers wouldn't have to play a rookie on the third pair. good thing, sure, but that would happen if the flyers added ANY vet dman, no matter where they slotted in the depth chart.

[Podein25]

I still don't buy it, still think the idea of the franchise dman is way overhyped.

as for making the entire d corps stronger... the only thing it does is shift everyone down one spot. which means it would mean the flyers wouldn't have to play a rookie on the third pair. good thing, sure, but that would happen if the flyers added ANY vet dman, no matter where they slotted in the depth chart.

You might be guilty of going too far the other way. I think a solid veteran D-man who shows up every night and plays 20+ hard minutes can have a calming influence over the entire D-corps. But what do I know: I was a center

[RonJeremy]

Well, like i said if we cant get Webber , then just follow the Rangers blueprint and have a group of shot blocking, physical, defensively sound blueliners. No matter what path we take, some sort of trade/free agenct has to happen. As far as guys like Sutton or Gill, they are merely a band aid solution.We need a couple of good younger dmen to replace Pronger and eventually Timmo. Imagine if Timmo got injured, we would be finished , that right there shows how important one guy can be to a team. So i think adding one younger dman like for example ,Subban, Bogosian or Schenn and then a veteran like Allen can be a big help if we cant get a guy like Webber.

Most of the Stanley Cup champs all had some sort of dominating dman.... either a defensive stalwart or an offensive force, of course the goaltending helped too, but a strong defense can help limit the chances agaisnt our bad goalies.

Boston- Chara

Chicago- Keith and Seabroke

Pittsburgh- Letang, Oprik, Gonchar- maybe none here are franchise but collectivley they hit big time and Gonchar QB the PP in a big way

Detroit -Lidstrom

Anaheim-Pronger, Niedermeyer

Tampa - no one to speak of

NJ- Stevens, Niedermeyer

[aziz]

I think a solid veteran D-man who shows up every night and plays 20+ hard minutes can have a calming influence over the entire D-corps. But what do I know: I was a center

agreed, that just doesn't have to mean a $7mil/yr elite-of-the-elite dman. what dan girardi is doing for the rags is a good example. they are not desperately seeking a future hall of fame guy on their blueline, because that isn't a required piece of the puzzle. they don't need a pronger/chara/weber.

[flyercanuck]

I still don't buy it, still think the idea of the franchise dman is way overhyped. Thomas make all the difference in the world for Boston, not chara.

if a sensible deal can be made for weber, then great, do it. strong players are always a good thing, at any position. if the flyers don't have "it" without him, though, they won't have it with him, either. and if they do, then they would. incremental improvement, not night and day transformation.

as for making the entire d corps stronger... the only thing it does is shift everyone down one spot. which means it would mean the flyers wouldn't have to play a rookie on the third pair. good thing, sure, but that would happen if the flyers added ANY vet dman, no matter where they slotted in the depth chart.

I agree Thomas is the key of the Bruins cup run. But Chara is definately 1B there. He's the one who has that team playing tough. When you have a guy like that, everyone else grows an extra 2 inches and 20 lbs. Pronger had the same effect here, and so would Weber.

The Flyers STILL need a goalie. But it's not like we'd only have a small window of opportunity with Weber (like Prongers one year), we'd have his entire contract length, whatever that may be. Heck, Weber may still be playing when Bryzgalov finally runs back to Russia with $51 million.

[Podein25]

agreed, that just doesn't have to mean a $7mil/yr elite-of-the-elite dman. what dan girardi is doing for the rags is a good example. they are not desperately seeking a future hall of fame guy on their blueline, because that isn't a required piece of the puzzle. they don't need a pronger/chara/weber.

Fair enough. I'm just glad we don't have Jay Bouwmeister playing in a Flyer uniform.