Game 37: Rangers at Flyers; 1/15/22 @ 7 PM, NBCSP

[radoran]

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

5 wins in their last 23 games is exactly how they look out there - like a team that wins once every 4 or 5 games.

 

It was the coach.

 

[GratefulFlyers]

Not 'the coach" but all the coaches from Lehigh to sunny Philadelphia. There's plenty of blame to go around but the number of talented guys who just go nowhere in the O&B should be a big concern and that's on the coaches.

 

Even Couturier, who was held up as a success of Flyers' player development in another thread...he comes out of the Q with a couple 100+ pt seasons and Lavy never plays him in the top 6. It takes the Flyers 5 years (i think) before this offensively-gifted player gets decent line mates and top line minutes. We all know what happened then, he pots 31 that season then 33 the next. Sure I enjoyed watching him shutdown Malkin as much as the next guy but how many goals did the Flyers miss by giving him wingers like Nodl and Wellwood all those years?

 

The Flyers had better forwards back then no question about it. I'm not pretending Couturier should've cracked the top 6 his rookie year. But the "we want him to work on his 2-way game" makes sense for about a season or maybe two...after that you're just mismanaging assets.

 

Back to the present day and it feels like the same thing is going on...different players different circumstances but the same stagnation and waste of talent.

 

 

[CoachX]

12 hours ago, Fizz said:

But if they hire some good position coaches and a HC that can help the youngsters instead of hindering them the rebuild might not take as long as one might think.

What rebuild is that?

 

So you're saying the HC was the problem?

[OccamsRazor]

22 hours ago, CoachX said:

Ah...a guy can dream, right?

 

I got my mind on football.

 

Fug this team.

 

Fly Eagles Fly

 

 

 

[Fizz]

12 hours ago, radoran said:

 

It was the coach.

 

You need good positional coaches to bring the young players along and correct the errors young players will inevitably make.

So yeah, it's coaching but not just the HC but coaching top to bottom.

[CoachX]

Just now, Fizz said:

You need good positional coaches to bring the young players along and correct the errors young players will inevitably make.

So yeah, it's coaching but not just the HC but coaching top to bottom.

Wash, rinse, repeat

[Fizz]

13 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Wash, rinse, repeat

Name me an instance in the last 10-15 years when the Flyers have had good positional coaches to teach the young players?

It's not just the HC but coaching as a whole entity.

Most draft picks struggle with the jump from junior/college to the NHL and need support and personal coaching.

[OccamsRazor]

4 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Not 'the coach" but all the coaches from Lehigh to sunny Philadelphia.

 

Is it the chef or the horrible stale uninspiring ingredients he was given to cook with???

 

I am done trying to call it.....

 

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, Fizz said:

Name me an instance in the last 10-15 years when the Flyers have had good positional coaches to teach the young players?

It's not just the HC but coaching as a whole entity.

Nope. I wont do that. Maybe you're right, but im not going to research what I think is inconsequential argument

 

Fact is, the Flyers have gone through head coaches and GM's with the main core of players still here, doing what they have been doing all along

 

I applaud you changing the narrative and shifting the blame to assistant coaches. After we beat that argument to death, we can blame the caterer for not serving sushi on Tuesday games in February against teams wearing white jerseys for away games 

Edited January 16, 2022 by CoachX

[Fizz]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

Nope. I wont do that. Maybe you're right, but im not going to research what I think is inconsequential argument

 

Fact is, the Flyers have gone through head coaches and GM's with the main core of players still here, doing what they have been doing all along

 

I applaud you changing the narrative and shifting the blame to assistant coaches. After we beat that argument to death, we can blame the caterer for not serving sushi on Tuesday games in February against teams wearing white jerseys for away games 

I still say AV was a has been coach never liked the hire.

But name me one HC that works 1 on 1 with individual players?

It just dosen't happen in the NHL.

That is what positional coached do, work 1 on 1 with players to improve their game.

Do HC's work with goalies, no they don't.

Do they work with defencemen 1 to 1, no they don't.

AV might have been a good HC at and time, but he needs a team full of veteran players that are NHL seasoned. Not first, second and even to some extent 3 year players.

The Flyers do not and have not for the past 10 or so years have the position coaches to develop young players. Hence players with high potential taking steps backwards.

I have made no secret that I hated AV as a coach. Him and Fletcher as the GM, HC combination would be a disaster. Most on here thought I was crazy.....maybe I am, but now it looks like just might have been right.

I highly doubt any HC worth is salt would allow any GM to force assistant coaches on him.

If by chance he allows it he is a ****** HC to start with.

If the staff was AVs choice there again he is a failure.

Either way AV failed.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Fizz

[GratefulFlyers]

Looking for easy answers is a waste of time it isn’t “the players” and it isn’t one HC as opposed to another. I think Fizz is right bc the common denominator over many years is how few players really excel and become impact players in the O&B. And if you say that’s expecting too much from guys like Sanheim or Konecny, Gostisbehere, Provorov then at least they shouldn’t be getting worse. That’s not asking too much.

[CoachX]

46 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Either way AV failed

And so did the coach before him, and the one before him, and the one before him....all the way back to Lavy who got fired. Oh, and if no one noticed, the current coach is failing also

[Fizz]

15 minutes ago, CoachX said:

And so did the coach before him, and the one before him, and the one before him....all the way back to Lavy who got fired. Oh, and if no one noticed, the current coach is failing also

So like GratefulFlyers said, why  have players like Sanheim, Konecny, Gostisbehere and Provorov all have taken a step backwards?

If it's not coaching in your opinion what is it?

Maybe all the youngsters lost the will to win or forgot how to play?

All the coaching staff still remaining are AVs staff so it's no wonder things haven't changed.

Like I said any HC worth his salt as HC would never allow a GM to force a coaching staff on him.

This is AVs mess and until a new HC is hired and brings in his own staff it will be status quo in Flyer land.

Fletcher dosen't have the smarts to fix this.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Fizz

[CoachX]

5 minutes ago, Fizz said:

If it's not coaching in your opinion what is it

Its the front office overvalued and  drafting players that don't go on to be good nhlers. It's a core group of players that have been coddled by that same front office, who easily blame a coach because that takes the focus off them

 

The players you are referring to, are regressing because this team sucks. There is a culture that breeds it. Thats why, no matter who they hire to coach, the result will be the same

[Fizz]

23 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Its the front office overvalued and  drafting players that don't go on to be good nhlers. It's a core group of players that have been coddled by that same front office, who easily blame a coach because that takes the focus off them

 

The players you are referring to, are regressing because this team sucks. There is a culture that breeds it. Thats why, no matter who they hire to coach, the result will be the same

Lol, you are kidding right?

Bad coaching can ruin a young player quickly destroy his confidence.

Why has Ghost prospered in Arizona on arguably a worse team?

 

[GratefulFlyers]

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

Its the front office overvalued and  drafting players that don't go on to be good nhlers.

 

I agree with that. The rest of it about coddling players....well I know there's been times when the "inmates ran the asylum" but I doubt it's been that way for a long time.

 

But anyway none of the players I mentioned were overvalued. We know that because they all played well their rookie year. TK kept playing well awhile longer. Gostisbehere got hurt, took awhile to heal and when he did AV wanted nothing to do with him. Fletcher finally bribed AZ with picks just so AV didn't have to look at him anymore I guess. Provorov and Sanheim have not progressed an inch in 4+ years.

 

My point is somewhere along the line those guys just stopped getting better and that should never be allowed to happen. And I think it was allowed to happen, not on purpose but through neglect. Along with Hart these are some of the Flyers most valuable assets and yet Provorov still needs someone to hold his hand in his 6th season. Without a "lead" guy Provorov looks lost, afraid to play his game. Same with Sanheim. He rarely drives the net anymore, he doesn't make smart plays and he's got to be leading the Flyers in unforced turnovers due to bad passes. He began his NHL career looking like a truly gifted offensive D-man and now he's what exactly? Barely a 3rd pair guy on a good team. Etc. etc. etc.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by GratefulFlyers

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, Fizz said:

Lol, you are kidding right?

Bad coaching can ruin a young player quickly destroy his confidence.

Why has Ghost prospered in Arizona on arguably a worse team?

 

Ok. Which of Ghosts 4 head coaches, while in Philly, was responsible for his demise? Let me guess, it was AV right?

 

And I suppose he was responsible for his injuries too?

[Fizz]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

Ok. Which of Ghosts 4 head coaches, while in Philly, was responsible for his demise? Let me guess, it was AV right?

 

And I suppose he was responsible for his injuries too?

Did AV do anything to change the culture of this team? No he did not.

Or is that not a HCs job?

Did AV teach his young players structure? No he did not. Or is that not a HCs job?

Did AV improve this team through smart coaching? No he did not.

Or is that not a HCs job?

It's AV assistant running the show behind the bench, no wonder it's the same old, same old.

 

Are you AVs agent or something?

You sure are sticking up for poor coaching.

You know damn well AV never used Ghost in a way to utilize his skill set.

As he never did with any young players.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Fizz

[CoachX]

Look you hate the guy, we all get it. He got fired so your argument is vindicated, for now. 

 

As far as coaches go, this team was the same before AV, and they are the same now. Firing him hasn't changed a thing. Maybe if you step back away from your singular focus of AV, you might notice the Flyers have lost 8 of 10, and the last 7 in a row. They've had five head coaches in the last decade, all with the same result. A hockey club with no real compete level, a bunch of overpaid underacheivers, a hole in goal, and a porous defense. If you want to lay that on one coach, that's fine by me.

 

You brought up select players. Ok. Konecny was on fire, under AV, and made the all star team. AV didn't seem to be a detriment then. After that, TK went in the tank and hasn't been the same since. Ghost? The guy was a defenseman in name only. He had offensive upside. But his defense, or lack of, cost more than he produced. Oh, and there was still the little matter of injuries

 

So, go ahead, defend this group of bums. Make your arguments.  When those of us still dedicated enough to tune in and watch, see the product on the ice, we will see the same old poor performance, regardless of who is standing behind the bench

[GratefulFlyers]

To no one in particular: spoiler alert it's not one or the other; there's enough blame to go around.

 

I didn't like AV mainly because I could never tell what kind of team he was trying to build. He let the special teams rot wither and die the whole time he was in charge. AV didn't like Gostisbehere and I did. Petty of me, maybe, but my criticism is valid I think bc Gostisbehere should've been a valuable asset to the Flyers. Judge him by his D if you insist, which proves my point.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

To no one in particular: spoiler alert it's not one or the other;

 

Exactly.

 

They're synergistic!!!!!!!!

 

 

[mojo1917]

I wonder how these young dudes would be doing had Berube not been fired ?

 

I have seen a lot of hockey players credit him for getting their game to the next level.

Not just scrubs either, good players on that St Louis team. Ryan O'Reilly for one.

 

I understand a GM wanting "his guy", but Dave Hakstol struggled with pro athletes, which are different to develop than college players.

Chief would beat the **** outta anyone pro, college, beer league, women's wouldn't matter, they'd be in shape and they'd play each shift like it was their last. 

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Petty of me, maybe, but my criticism is valid I think bc Gostisbehere should've been a valuable asset to the Flyers. Judge him by his D if you insist, which proves my point.

it does? Which point is that exactly? You lost me

[CoachX]

6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Chief would beat the **** outta anyone pro, college, beer league, women's wouldn't matter, they'd be in shape and they'd play each shift like it was their last. 

refresh my memory, did he do this? Why was he fired again?

[mojo1917]

4 minutes ago, CoachX said:

refresh my memory, did he do this? Why was he fired again?

He was holding the dog collar when the senate sub-committee showed up.

 

He was the coach when Hextall came aboard, Hextall wanted his guy, which is normal.

The issue most people on the board had with him was he didn't seem like a real X,and O's guy his pressers were filled with, "we need to be harder on the puck", "We need to play faster". Which were both true.