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Head Coach - Was AV "really" the problem?


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I'm in the camp that firmly believes AV, was not the problem. Firing him did nothing. But it's done. So now what?

 

First, I initially thought having 3 HC on the staff was a good thing. Looking back now, I dont think so. I get the impression the Flyers went into it with the idea that if AV failed, they have 2 possible replacements already under contract. How can a coach operate looking over his shoulder? This seems exactly like something the Flyers would do. Either AV toes the line, or he gets the are.

 

Once again, let's protect our babies (players) at all cost

 

Now, the coach is fired, and no replacement has been named. Yeo is a lame duck. No one can win with this squad. How the hell does a franchise just can a coach and then do nothing to fix it, if that was the problem? Isnt this exactly what they did with that Gordon character?

 

If the coach WAS the problem, you should have had a plan for his replacement already in place. Doing it this way is a clear indication the front office threw in the towel, and we have to suffer through this train wreck

Edited by pilldoc
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They're in Year Ten with one playoff round win to show for it.   They're about to miss the playoffs in consecutive years for the first time since 92-93/93-94.   The problem with talent on this roster goes back much further than 2014 and isn't at all limited to Hextall's drafting.     The Phantoms missed every playoff from 2009-2016, then lost in the first round twice, and have missed the playoffs 2018-2022.   What is it about that franchise that you

After an entire post about the liability of the medical community you end with this 🙄   Yes, "Richards" had the problem.   Called "the next Bobby Clarke" even before being drafted by the Flyers. Thrust into the captain's role too early. Given essentially a lifetime contract. Team expected him to play injured an entire season. To foster his recovery he was given pain medication he was likely already dependent on to play through - this still being of the "pills like candy" era t

At the end of the 2009 season, he had surgery on both shoulders, having played the whole season with both injured. I'll speculate he was on some painkillers at this time and was given painkillers following surgery.   He starts the 09-10 season with five goals in three games, ultimately finishing with 31 goals, 62 points, and a ride to the Cup Final in which he was a point per game player.   Comes back in 10-11 with another 60+ point season, 7 points in 11 games, lost in the s

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21 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I'm in the camp that firmly believes AV, was not the problem. Firing him did nothing.

 

I'm in the same camp with you .....  this team simply was not good enough for a myriad of reason.

 

22 minutes ago, CoachX said:

First, I initially thought having 3 HC on the staff was a good thing. Looking back now, I dont think so. I get the impression the Flyers went into it with the idea that if AV failed, they have 2 possible replacements already under contract. How can a coach operate looking over his shoulder? This seems exactly like something the Flyers would do. Either AV toes the line, or he gets the are.

 

Astute observation ..... Maybe having all that experience behind the bench "Should" have helped with the on ice play.  Maybe constantly looking over your shoulder was not the way to go.  I dunno.  It is clear to me that coaching was not issue.  I know some will disagree with this assessment.  

 

33 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Once again, let's protect our babies (players) at all cost

 

I have often said that the players on this team, especially the veterans, have never been held accountable for their play on the ice ....  Hard to argue against this.

 

35 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Now, the coach is fired, and no replacement has been named. Yeo is a lame duck. No one can win with this squad. How the hell does a franchise just can a coach and then do nothing to fix it, if that was the problem? Isnt this exactly what they did with that Gordon character?

 

If the coach WAS the problem, you should have had a plan for his replacement already in place. Doing it this way is a clear indication the front office threw in the towel, and we have to suffer through this train wreck

 

 

Again hard to argue against any of this ....

 

Now we are all yet again suffering through another wasted season ....

 

might as well start talking about the trade deadline and upcoming draft later in the spring ....

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  • pilldoc changed the title to Head Coach - Was AV "really" the problem?

No Doubt!  

 

Flyers have had SIX head coaches since 2010, SEVEN if ya wanna throw in Stevens who made it to Dec'09.    That's pathetic and pretty damning that it isn't the coach that has been the problem...just shows that this organization is poorly run and clueless.

 

So Sad for such a traditionally good hockey club...WE MISS YA ED!

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27 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

might as well start talking about the trade deadline and upcoming draft later in the spring

Trade deadline + draft = hope

 

that's why it's so exciting. The only thing hockey related I'm looking forward to

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6 minutes ago, Cheesesteak said:

No Doubt!  

 

Flyers have had SIX head coaches since 2010, SEVEN if ya wanna throw in Stevens who made it to Dec'09.    That's pathetic and pretty damning that it isn't the coach that has been the problem...just shows that this organization is poorly run and clueless.

 

So Sad for such a traditionally good hockey club...WE MISS YA ED!

 

 

Find the common thread and there you have the problem of the Flyers .......

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I can't get my head wrapped around it. So they let Yeo finish the season and hope for a reason to keep him? And if it ends as bad as it is now, you can him and move on?

 

If we are concerned about free agents coming here because of how bad things are, what message are you sending a successful nhl coach. Hell the guy you just canned is one the winningest HC currently in the game 

 

What a waste of time when you can reasonably predict what the outcome of this season will be

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I think many here already know where the problem is for the Flyers. I read it on this board over and over again from longtime members: it's the top of the management structure. How much is Holmgren or Clarke or Scott to blame individually I have no idea. But fish rots from the head - so they tell me - and it certainly stinks through and through.

 

There's plenty of talent on the Flyers roster right now. There's also a handful of scrubs who shouldn't be there at all. I just worry that the Clarke/Holmgren/Fletcher school will continue to overvalue FAs and undervalue younger players who need some help finding their game in the NHL. Let's face it player development is hardly the Flyers strong suit. That's why I can't get excited about the TD or the draft. Interested sure but excited or hopeful? No.

 

 

 

 

Edited by GratefulFlyers
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9 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

There's plenty of talent on the Flyers roster right now. There's also a handful of scrubs who shouldn't be there at all.

Good point. But this is completely aside from the head coach issue.

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On 1/16/2022 at 9:55 AM, CoachX said:

I'm in the camp that firmly believes AV, was not the problem.

 

Just hire Bruce to whip these Flyers into shape.

 

 

 

He has my vote. These pu$$ies need some coaching just like this.

 

Or is it..........we must find a new way to get through to da yoofs ta day.

 

#makingthemsofterbytheminute

 

:BrownBag:

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So you want a hard ass coach? I guess Tortorella's available.............

 

idk, I think this group of players just doesn't work and needs to be broken up. It needs a tear down, a clear rebuild direction that they stick to, and a solid identity (whatever that is). 

 

Ultimately FA over paying and poor drafting will kill any franchise. remember when everybody was saying the Flyers had a stuffed full prospect cupboard and the future was bright? Funny how fast that can all just go poof.

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4 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

idk, I think this group of players just doesn't work and needs to be broken up.

 

"this group" has a couple bad players playing too many minutes and they're dragging down the Flyers even more than we might realize. Yandle and JVR are my top culprits. Sanheim falls just below them. Maybe he's not actively "dragging down the Flyers" but he is ridiculously mistake-prone so it's hard to see much difference btw him and Yandle sometimes.

 

Obviously just 2 or 3 guys aren't solely responsible for "dragging down the Flyers." But shifts and games are lost due to mistakes and these guys make so many. They single-handedly kill any momentum the Flyers get by a good shift before them. Rushes are constantly stalled and turned around by bad passing. Shots don't hit the net (jeezHC did anyone see the SO last night? It wasn't these guys but it was embarrassingly bad for the Flyers - 5 of 7 shooters missed the net! Farabee didn't even get a shot off. Hart stopped 7 in a row how much more can you ask of the guy?)

 

I'll stop rambling. Blow it up, get rid of the moron who put a lot of it together and go from there. Clarke Holmgren and Scott aren't going anywhere anytime soon so the best we can hope for is a better GM and a real NHL coach who brings in a staff with a proven track record of developing talent. That part is crucial imho.

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2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

so the best we can hope for is a better GM and a real NHL coach who brings in a staff with a proven track record of developing talent

Still beating that drum? AV is to blame and no good postition coaches?

 

Did AV bring in the position coaches, or was he stuck with those hired by the organization?

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2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

"this group" has a couple bad players playing too many minutes and they're dragging down the Flyers even more

than we might realize. Yandle and JVR are my top culprits. Sanheim falls just below them. Maybe he's not actively "dragging down the Flyers" but he is ridiculously mistake-prone so it's hard to see much difference btw him and Yandle sometimes.

I don't think anyone would argue against the JVR signing as having been one of their big mistakes. I didn't understand it at the time as it seemed to go against what Hextall had been doing fixing the cap problem he inherited so I guess it did come down from the top. The genius who threw all that money on this guy:

 

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2 hours ago, CoachX said:

Still beating that drum? AV is to blame and no good postition coaches?

 

Did AV bring in the position coaches, or was he stuck with those hired by the organization?

You are kidding right?

No HC would agree to have somebody else select his assistant coaches or positional coaches for him it would hamstring him from the start.

Face It AV and his coaches from top to bottom were failures.

Oh, I forgot your big argument......it's the players fault, they are playing unmotivated hockey right?

Well it's the HCs job to motivate and instill a sense of team to the dressing room and change the culture of a bad team.

If he is not doing that he is failing at his job. AV was a failure and so are "his" positional coaches.

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AV was a huge failure. They actually got WORSE under his watch and Schmuck was all in with him. Every young player on this club has taken a huge step backwards under the watch of AV and Schmuck. This is their mess. I feel bad for the next head coach because they've got a hell of a task in their hands getting all the young players back on track. 

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10 hours ago, Fizz said:

You are kidding right?

No HC would agree to have somebody else select his assistant coaches or positional coaches for him it would hamstring him from the start.

Face It AV and his coaches from top to bottom were failures.

Oh, I forgot your big argument......it's the players fault, they are playing unmotivated hockey right?

Well it's the HCs job to motivate and instill a sense of team to the dressing room and change the culture of a bad team.

If he is not doing that he is failing at his job. AV was a failure and so are "his" positional coaches.

no. im not kidding. Since October 2013 (roughly 10 years) the Flyers have had 5 head coaches. Thats a new head coach every 2 years. So, if that HC brings in a new staff of positional coaches, that also changes every 2 years. The argument that a players development is stifled by bad positional coaches seems weak considering how often they get a new group, unless of course, all the coaches hired since October 2013 are worthless. That would not surprise me, considering the idiots running the franchise. But more likely, considering the large turnover of coaches, and the same result on the ice, the problem lies elsewhere. Considering none of the front office loonies actually play the game, the on ice performance lies with this group pf players. Either they aren't talented enough, or there is a culture that allows them to perform however they want, with no fear of consequence. I personally think its a combination of both. So instead of a revolving door of coaches, maybe they should make some critical player moves to shake up this group.

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10 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

AV was a huge failure. They actually got WORSE under his watch and Schmuck was all in with him. Every young player on this club has taken a huge step backwards under the watch of AV and Schmuck. This is their mess. I feel bad for the next head coach because they've got a hell of a task in their hands getting all the young players back on track. 

what coach worth a damn would want this job?

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29 minutes ago, CoachX said:

what coach worth a damn would want this job?

As long as Clarke and Holmgren are there to throw them under a bus and stab them in the back, I'd probably stay away too. Clarke's attack on Hextall to protect his lackey Schmuck should show everyone just how dysfunctional this franchise is. It was Schmuck who brought in Vigneault, who then proceeded to railroad Gostisbehere, Hart, Konecny, Lindblom and just about any other young player. It was Vigneault who convinced Schmuck to make the offseason moves that he made. They both need to be held accountable. Actually, all of upper management, the senior advisors, medical staff, etc.... should have been sent packing. Don't kid yourself, the country club and their lackey are in full on self preservation now. And as long as it's like that, any smart coach is going to stay away. I warned you that this was going to happen. I warned everyone and I also warned everyone that Ristolainen was going to be failure. 

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1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

As long as Clarke and Holmgren are there to throw them under a bus and stab them in the back, I'd probably stay away too. Clarke's attack on Hextall to protect his lackey Schmuck should show everyone just how dysfunctional this franchise is. It was Schmuck who brought in Vigneault, who then proceeded to railroad Gostisbehere, Hart, Konecny, Lindblom and just about any other young player. It was Vigneault who convinced Schmuck to make the offseason moves that he made. They both need to be held accountable. Actually, all of upper management, the senior advisors, medical staff, etc.... should have been sent packing. Don't kid yourself, the country club and their lackey are in full on self preservation now. And as long as it's like that, any smart coach is going to stay away. I warned you that this was going to happen. I warned everyone and I also warned everyone that Ristolainen was going to be failure. 

 

because all the young players besides hart arent good, it means everyone else to blame but them, why are you so hard headed about the fact this players arent good? are you that afraid to admit that hextall drafted players that arent good? if that's the case it's going to get worse. like what is it going to take for you to face reality that these players arent good, this team being in the dumps for 5 straight years? the phantoms havent made the playoffs since 2017, does that say anything to do you that players he drafted stink? if they were great, the phantoms would making the playoffs every year.

Edited by tucson83
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1 hour ago, CoachX said:

The argument that a players development is stifled by bad positional coaches seems weak considering how often they get a new group, unless of course, all the coaches hired since October 2013 are worthless.

 

I can't even name every assistant going back to '13, much less label them all "worthless." But esp in the under-25 group the results are not good. I'm not saying it's entirely on the coaches I say it's mostly on the coaches.

 

2 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

because all the young players besides hart arent good, it means everyone else to blame but them, why are you so hard headed about the fact this players arent good?

 

Was it all just an illusion? Did we not see Provorov take charge of the back end long before Niskanen came along? When partnered with Gostisbehere for a spell or more often MacDonald, Provorov's speed, positioning and focus (and puck-handling, passing, forcing turnovers etc.) were obvious. He stayed active offensively without shirking his defensive responsibilities. Some Flyers' fans were even making Pronger comparisons. Overblown sure but it reflected how much excitement Provorov was creating at the time. Suddenly the Flyers had a great young goaltender and a budding "true" #1.

 

And now? Now everyone just accepts that Provorov has hit his ceiling. He will always need "the right partner" to play his best game. That doesn't make him a bad player but it is disappointing.

 

Blaming Provorov, lumping him in with "the players" - as if the coaches were never given talent to work with...I don't see it. The fact is Provorov is only one example from a large handful of young players who show great promise and potential and then after a year with the Flyers their game deteriorates.

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1 hour ago, tucson83 said:

 

because all the young players besides hart arent good, it means everyone else to blame but them, why are you so hard headed about the fact this players arent good? are you that afraid to admit that hextall drafted players that arent good? if that's the case it's going to get worse. like what is it going to take for you to face reality that these players arent good, this team being in the dumps for 5 straight years? the phantoms havent made the playoffs since 2017, does that say anything to do you that players he drafted stink? if they were great, the phantoms would making the playoffs every year.

You must be high if you think I haven't ripped on Hextall's picks. I've ripped on Sanheim, I've ripped on Patrick, I've ripped on Jay O'Brien, I've ripped on guys like Adam Ginning. I've done more than my share of typing on Hextall picks. I've also ripped on the Flyers development process and how bad it is. Phil Myers is a great example of that. He's not playing in Nashville right now because they're busy having to try to redevelop him because John Hynes said that he has no fundamentals at all. He has the iq and physical ability, but in terms of things like stick positioning and actual on ice positioning, he has nothing. And who was he developed by? Scott Gordon in Lehigh Valley (who I have also ripped on numerous times), who was a Hextall hire. 

 

The only young guys that I've appreciated during the Hextall sets have been Provorov (who's development has also been stunted by this franchise), Konecny (see Provorov), Hart (who Vigneault made an example of last year), Lindblom (who should have been sent back to the AHL to get his game together again), and Frost (who has been a victim of the incompetence of this organization).

 

So, let's not claim that I haven't ripped on Ron. I've ripped on Schmuck and AV more because: a) as the GM of this franchise,  Schmuck has a job in which he has to provode the best players that should be on the ice. Instead, under his watch, we've gotten players like Nate ****** Thompson and Rasmus Ristolainen;

b) as the GM,  Schmuck was left with a boatload of draft picks and money, which he immediately blew through in the quest to try to make things better. He packaged picks with Gostisbehere (who looks like the Ghost of old in Arizona) to free up money so he could send more picks out the door for an even worse player in Ristolainen. He saved in yearly salary in Voracek/Atkinson deal, but ended up with an extra year in the Atkinson contract,  so we're still paying out just as much for Cam, but don't it over longer term. Asset management is not a strong suit for Schmuck;

c) with regards to AV,  look over his career and there's ONE player that stands out as someone he helped develop - Ryan Kesler. That's it. He's a guy who loves scrubs and marginal players and has no patience for young players. That's the reality. There's a reason why all of young guys stagnated and stepped back under his watch. He and his cronies coached the skill out of the kids and we're seeing just how bad things are;

b) for an insight as to how bad AV was a coach, he was asked last year about the debuts of Wade Allison and Cam York in their first games. Most coaches would go out of their way to praise the young guys and instead, Vigneault was nonchalant and said he barely noticed them. What kind of coach does that? Obviously that idiot did;

c) Vigneault allowed his good buddy Therrien to change the power play completely, to the point that it was one of the worst in the league. When you've got Giroux, JVR, Konecny, Atkinson and Provorov or Sanheim running the point, it should be lethal. Instead, guys were playing out of position and the pet play wasn't working. Most coaches would change it, but Vigneault and Therrien kept going back to the same power play system. They even brought in Hayes' good buddy Keith Yandle to run it and it was still awful;

d) speaking of Yandle, he was gifted a spot on the blueline. Not only has he been terrible, but guys like York and Zamula could have played in the bottom six and gotten viable experience, but instead, they were sent to Lehigh Valley; which brings me to

e) Ian Laperriere as the head coach in Lehigh Valley. Schmuck talked about changing the development system and putting more of an effort into getting more out of players and picks. I applauded Schmuck for that because that has been a long standing problem since John Stevens was promoted to the big club (the fact that he turned Randy Jones into an NHLer speaks in volumes about his ability to develop players). So what does Schmuck do? He hires a guy who has NEVER been a head coach anywhere. Schmuck didn't even bother looking. Why not reach out to coaches in major junior or NCAA hockey to see if they want to jump to the pro ranks and work with young guys? Schmuck put no effort into perhaps the most important how throughout the franchise. You wanna know why the Phantoms suck? Under Hextall, he brought in Scott Gordon who would listen to Ron's every word on how guys were to be developed (Laughton want to get power play time because Hextall saw him as bottom six forward, same with Aube-Kubel, who is turning into a very good top 9 forward in Colorado). Schmuck hired someone with no experience, and that Laperriere is someone the young guys can talk to.

 

I can go on and on. But this franchise continues to flounder and players who leave here play much better once they're gone. And yes, I have NO qualms about the piss poor job that Schmuck has done. I also have no qualms about the piss poor job Hextall did either. But Ron isn't the GM anymore. Schmuck is. And this mess falls DIRECTLY on Schmuck. 

Edited by BobbyClarkeFan16
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20 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

So you want a hard ass coach? I guess Tortorella's available.............

 

First i want a guy with a clear plan....then he needs to make sure the players understand it and then they need to be accountable to be able to executor their assignments within the plan. 

 

Then if they can't well hold them accountable...scratch them then if need be like BA did to AB if you ain't helping then you got to get the fcuk out of here....but we know it goes further than just the coach it comes from the complete top all the way to the roots in the grounds.

 

And we know it will a quick fix up if anything is done at all. But i guess we can hold out hope.

 

One thing for sure is i won't watch it. I can't again this year with this team i have seen enough it.

 

Holding out for change....

 

:BrownBag:

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51 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

You must be high if you think I haven't ripped on Hextall's picks. I've ripped on Sanheim, I've ripped on Patrick, I've ripped on Jay O'Brien, I've ripped on guys like Adam Ginning. I've done more than my share of typing on Hextall picks. I've also ripped on the Flyers development process and how bad it is. Phil Myers is a great example of that. He's not playing in Nashville right now because they're busy having to try to redevelop him because John Hynes said that he has no fundamentals at all. He has the iq and physical ability, but in terms of things like stick positioning and actual on ice positioning, he has nothing. And who was he developed by? Scott Gordon in Lehigh Valley (who I have also ripped on numerous times), who was a Hextall hire. 

 

The only young guys that I've appreciated during the Hextall sets have been Provorov (who's development has also been stunted by this franchise), Konecny (see Provorov), Hart (who Vigneault made an example of last year), Lindblom (who should have been sent back to the AHL to get his game together again), and Frost (who has been a victim of the incompetence of this organization).

 

So, let's not claim that I haven't ripped on Ron. I've ripped on Schmuck and AV more because: a) as the GM of this franchise,  Schmuck has a job in which he has to provode the best players that should be on the ice. Instead, under his watch, we've gotten players like Nate ****** Thompson and Rasmus Ristolainen;

b) as the GM,  Schmuck was left with a boatload of draft picks and money, which he immediately blew through in the quest to try to make things better. He packaged picks with Gostisbehere (who looks like the Ghost of old in Arizona) to free up money so he could send more picks out the door for an even worse player in Ristolainen. He saved in yearly salary in Voracek/Atkinson deal, but ended up with an extra year in the Atkinson contract,  so we're still paying out just as much for Cam, but don't it over longer term. Asset management is not a strong suit for Schmuck;

c) with regards to AV,  look over his career and there's ONE player that stands out as someone he helped develop - Ryan Kesler. That's it. He's a guy who loves scrubs and marginal players and has no patience for young players. That's the reality. There's a reason why all of young guys stagnated and stepped back under his watch. He and his cronies coached the skill out of the kids and we're seeing just how bad things are;

b) for an insight as to how bad AV was a coach, he was asked last year about the debuts of Wade Allison and Cam York in their first games. Most coaches would go out of their way to praise the young guys and instead, Vigneault was nonchalant and said he barely noticed them. What kind of coach does that? Obviously that idiot did;

c) Vigneault allowed his good buddy Therrien to change the power play completely, to the point that it was one of the worst in the league. When you've got Giroux, JVR, Konecny, Atkinson and Provorov or Sanheim running the point, it should be lethal. Instead, guys were playing out of position and the pet play wasn't working. Most coaches would change it, but Vigneault and Therrien kept going back to the same power play system. They even brought in Hayes' good buddy Keith Yandle to run it and it was still awful;

d) speaking of Yandle, he was gifted a spot on the blueline. Not only has he been terrible, but guys like York and Zamula could have played in the bottom six and gotten viable experience, but instead, they were sent to Lehigh Valley; which brings me to

e) Ian Laperriere as the head coach in Lehigh Valley. Schmuck talked about changing the development system and putting more of an effort into getting more out of players and picks. I applauded Schmuck for that because that has been a long standing problem since John Stevens was promoted to the big club (the fact that he turned Randy Jones into an NHLer speaks in volumes about his ability to develop players). So what does Schmuck do? He hires a guy who has NEVER been a head coach anywhere. Schmuck didn't even bother looking. Why not reach out to coaches in major junior or NCAA hockey to see if they want to jump to the pro ranks and work with young guys? Schmuck put no effort into perhaps the most important how throughout the franchise. You wanna know why the Phantoms suck? Under Hextall, he brought in Scott Gordon who would listen to Ron's every word on how guys were to be developed (Laughton want to get power play time because Hextall saw him as bottom six forward, same with Aube-Kubel, who is turning into a very good top 9 forward in Colorado). Schmuck hired someone with no experience, and that Laperriere is someone the young guys can talk to.

 

I can go on and on. But this franchise continues to flounder and players who leave here play much better once they're gone. And yes, I have NO qualms about the piss poor job that Schmuck has done. I also have qualms about the piss poor job Hextall did either. But run isn't the GM anymore. Schmuck is. And this mess falls DIRECTLY on Schmuck. 

 

what's going to make you love anyone that gets hired? they all have to have championships on their resumes or they suck?

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