Fletcher’s presser this Wednesday

[OccamsRazor]

18 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

His health isn't so great.

 

 

It's because he plays like he is 6-6 250 but he is only 5-10 180 (if that) hell if you could put his his angry ways into Travis Sanheim and he would be a Flyer fan favorite.

 

I never try to hold injuries against a guy in a physical sport who plays physical.

 

Unless it is a lot of soft tissue issues because that most time come down to not taking care of your body...and before someone twist my words not all the time but in most cases but don't let me stop yall from raging letting off steam the Anabolic Hamster.

 

I get it I'm pissed JFK headbutted that bullet....

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by OccamsRazor
bourbon isn't working

[GratefulFlyers]

I like Ellis. I didn't like the trade bc it was another typical Flyers trade. Even w/out Ellis' history of missing stretches almost every year, 6 seasons of a $6.25mil cap hit ... there were better things to do with that money. Hell they could've hired private coaches for Myers, Sanheim and Provorov for 6 years and still have money leftover.

 

Ellis is a good player. The other 2? Dumb and dumber.

[SCFlyguy]

24 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

there were better things to do with that money.

This should be the Flyers' slogan next year.

Edited January 28, 2022 by SCFlyguy

[tucson83]

9 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

I'm out of touch? What have you been watching the past three years? The team has gotten progressively WORSE. That's not a lie and it's something that CANNOT be disputed.

 

As for the teams you mentioned with regards to rebuild going awry, there's one thing they don't have that the Flyers have and it continually covers up Fletcher's **** job of team building - goaltending. Thank their ****** lucky stars that they have Carter Hart because if they didn't,  this would be a WHOLE lot worse. 

 

And yes, tearing it down is the way to go and rebuilding PROPERLY is how you fix it. And with regards to clubs you mentioned (plus Philadelphia), they have **** management that's done nothing to fix things. In willing to give Kevyn Adams a pass because at least he's started to attempt to fix what's wrong in Buffalo. Schmuck just throws **** at a wall here and hopes to find something that sticks. And while we're at it, if we're going to talk about teams that have had a hard time with rebuilds, what about teams like Tampa Bay, New York Rangers, Detroit or Toronto? They've seemed to dive quite well in their rebuilds. Maybe great management and ownership means something. 

 

And while we're on the subject of Schmuck, let's go over his offseason moves. When Allison, Laczynski and Frost weren't ready to start the year, he didn't have a backup plan on place. He instead signed guys like Brassard and Thompson. Our how about bringing in Keith Yandle because "York and Zamula" needed seasoning.  Are you ****** kidding me? Those guys have been atrocious this year. Our how about parting with prime assets for Ass-to-Mouth Stinktolainen or giving away prime assets and Gostisbehere to bring onboard Stinktolainen?

 

There's nothing about this group that has any redeeming quality. Say what you want, but Schmuck has set this franchise back and there's good old Dave Scott telling everyone that Schmuck is his guy and that they're close. It was embarrassing and nauseating to watch. I'm sorry you're so colorblind by this organization, but I've watched this for 40+ years and it's been the same old, same old. The only redeeming grace is that Danny Briere is working his way through the management ranks and has an eye for talent. 

 

Open your eyes. Nothing is going to change and in fact I'm willing to bet it gets even worse next year. I'm sorry you can't see the damage Schmuck is doing it how Dave Scott enables him, but as a fan who has spent thousands and has been loyally devoted for over 40 years, yeah, I have every right to call this ******** out. It's too bad none of the media yesterday had the balls and spine to call them out.

 

it's been 40 years blah blah, st.louis blues didnt freaking quit and tanked their way to win a cup for the first time since 1970, you got no patience that's your problem, you think tanking is the way because you think it's a guarantee we will get bedard and wright and we will be cup contenders, it's called a draft lottery we may get neither and we are in buffalo territory for 15 to 20 years, is that what you want? i swear in two years of winning 10 games a season it's not going to be fun for you and you are going 180 and say we shouldnt have done this.

it's bad enough buffalo lost their main star player because of this and cant attract no top free agents which is main ingredient of improving your roster, you cant draft your way in a cup contender, it's not the way to do it. you have to stay competitive to attract great players and keep players that you drafted on this roster, oilers might lose one of their top players, you cant tank and be bad, it's not good for any star player.

 

if that doesnt ring a bell, i dont know what reality you are living in, you act like this is video game and it will work in real life, there's a difference between player computer generated players and players that actually have feelings that actually have choice and not being controlled like robots.

 

 

[ruxpin]

Trust me when I tell you all that the threads are so much better when you put the paste eaters on ignore.

[OccamsRazor]

12 hours ago, tucson83 said:

free agents which is main ingredient of improving your roster, you cant draft your way in a cup contender

 

 

Your main core and foundation should be laid by drafting.

 

Free agency should be use to fill holes when needed.

 

And it isn't an exact science and you could look through history and there will be rare exceptions but all the clubs in almost every sport share this philosophy.

 

It starts there and I know we all joke all the time about tanking but pro athletes do not and will not tank for the sake of the club.

 

However they are human and they will feel down and out or hopeless in turning it around and that will reflect in their play and even body language which I think is what we are seeing.

 

I find it hard to believe there are 5 worse teams in the NHL right now worse than the Flyers.

 

I am at a loss on what to do anymore with this club than what we have already said to blow it up.

 

But it is clear that management doesn't feel that way and they would rather just half ass it so they can have a chance at just getting in the dance and anything can happen.

 

Till their mentality/plan changes the Cup will continue to elude the buffoons.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by OccamsRazor
bourbon isn't working

[SCFlyguy]

10 hours ago, tucson83 said:

 

it's been 40 years blah blah, st.louis blues didnt freaking quit and tanked their way to win a cup for the first time since 1970, you got no patience that's your problem, you think tanking is the way because you think it's a guarantee we will get bedard and wright and we will be cup contenders, it's called a draft lottery we may get neither and we are in buffalo territory for 15 to 20 years, is that what you want? i swear in two years of winning 10 games a season it's not going to be fun for you and you are going 180 and say we shouldnt have done this.

it's bad enough buffalo lost their main star player because of this and cant attract no top free agents which is main ingredient of improving your roster, you cant draft your way in a cup contender, it's not the way to do it. you have to stay competitive to attract great players and keep players that you drafted on this roster, oilers might lose one of their top players, you cant tank and be bad, it's not good for any star player.

 

if that doesnt ring a bell, i dont know what reality you are living in, you act like this is video game and it will work in real life, there's a difference between player computer generated players and players that actually have feelings that actually have choice and not being controlled like robots.

 

 

You said Fletcher fixed the defense this offseason and would fix the forwards next offseason.  So give us all a break if we don't take anything else you say seriously.

 

The core of the Blues was drafted by the Blues or traded for using draft picks.  O'Reilly was their only significant UFA signing unless I'm missing someone.  I guess you could count Perron as well.

 

Lightning's core was drafted and they added to that with some shrewd trades.  Who was their big UFA signing?

 

We are already in Buffalo territory or will be soon.

[ruxpin]

10 hours ago, tucson83 said:

free agents which is main ingredient of improving your roster, you cant draft your way in a cup contender, it's not the way to do it. you have to stay competitive to attract great players and keep players that you drafted on this roster

 

This is simply not reality and entirely not true.   It simply isn't.   It's not 1995 anymore.   Wake up, Rip van Winkle.

[elmatus]

10 hours ago, tucson83 said:

you have to stay competitive to attract great players and keep players that you drafted on this roster

 

I agree with this bit for sure. Look at teams like the Pens, who've been milking their star duo for years now, consistently attracting decent FAs and getting favourable trades to complement their core, and they've been competitive since something like second year Crosby. Players want to play with him in particular, so they attract players much more easily than most teams. Washington is similar, albeit with less playoff success for much of the Ovi era. That's definitely the absolute best way, when all the chips fall in your favour.

 

But that's really the key. You have to have chips fall in your favour first. None of that happens without the Pens getting a 2nd overall and then a 1st overall *and* having them both live up to the hype and become two of the best players in NHL history. That type of scenario is hardly something we should ever consider common or anywhere near likely. It was amazing luck on the part of the Pens, and in retrospect it probably saved their (at the time) floundering franchise. 

 

Similarly, virtually all proper contenders in the cap era have relied on key top end talent that was drafted and developed by that team. That top end talent is what makes up the core to build around. And when I say top end talent, I mean actual top end talent -- not Farabee or TK or Frost. Here's the real kicker though: That type of player very very rarely ever gets traded. They're drafted. They're developed. Teams do not get rid of those guys. 

 

So yeah, in an ideal situation, you just keep re-stocking via things like free agency and trades, and the team remains competitive for a longer period of time. That only works if you have a solid core that includes some of the best players on the planet. Get that, and you can retool for days. Without that, you're just taking shots in the dark.

 

JVR, Niskanen, Hayes, Ellis, Risto, Atkinson -- all guys who were obtained in the ways you've mentioned. Some of these guys are even good players! Atkinson is great at what he does. Niskanen has always been a phenomenal two-way dman. Ellis despite injuries is also really quite good. Hell, even Hayes is a good 2-3C (the mistake here was mostly assuming he's better than that and way overpaying for his services). JVR is an understandable shot too, if the team actually had a proper contending core, and he was coming in as just a complementary (let's see if this works) kind of piece. Risto was awful, is awful. Always will be awful. Needs to be ditched immediately.

 

Those are the guys that can generally be obtained via trades and FA, and for most of them, obtaining them doesn't seem like such a silly idea if -- and this is the big if -- if the team you're adding them to already has a core that includes some truly elite level players. Giroux is the closest thing we've had to that level of player over this decade plus, and he hasn't been enough.

[ruxpin]

14 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I agree with this bit for sure. Look at teams like the Pens, who've been milking their star duo for years now, consistently attracting decent FAs and getting favourable trades to complement their core, and they've been competitive since something like second year Crosby. Players want to play with him in particular, so they attract players much more easily than most teams. Washington is similar, albeit with less playoff success for much of the Ovi era. That's definitely the absolute best way, when all the chips fall in your favour.

 

But that's really the key. You have to have chips fall in your favour first. None of that happens without the Pens getting a 2nd overall and then a 1st overall *and* having them both live up to the hype and become two of the best players in NHL history. That type of scenario is hardly something we should ever consider common or anywhere near likely. It was amazing luck on the part of the Pens, and in retrospect it probably saved their (at the time) floundering franchise. 

 

Similarly, virtually all proper contenders in the cap era have relied on key top end talent that was drafted and developed by that team. That top end talent is what makes up the core to build around. And when I say top end talent, I mean actual top end talent -- not Farabee or TK or Frost. Here's the real kicker though: That type of player very very rarely ever gets traded. They're drafted. They're developed. Teams do not get rid of those guys. 

 

So yeah, in an ideal situation, you just keep re-stocking via things like free agency and trades, and the team remains competitive for a longer period of time. That only works if you have a solid core that includes some of the best players on the planet. Get that, and you can retool for days. Without that, you're just taking shots in the dark.

 

JVR, Niskanen, Hayes, Ellis, Risto, Atkinson -- all guys who were obtained in the ways you've mentioned. Some of these guys are even good players! Atkinson is great at what he does. Niskanen has always been a phenomenal two-way dman. Ellis despite injuries is also really quite good. Hell, even Hayes is a good 2-3C (the mistake here was mostly assuming he's better than that and way overpaying for his services). JVR is an understandable shot too, if the team actually had a proper contending core, and he was coming in as just a complementary (let's see if this works) kind of piece. Risto was awful, is awful. Always will be awful. Needs to be ditched immediately.

 

Those are the guys that can generally be obtained via trades and FA, and for most of them, obtaining them doesn't seem like such a silly idea if -- and this is the big if -- if the team you're adding them to already has a core that includes some truly elite level players. Giroux is the closest thing we've had to that level of player over this decade plus, and he hasn't been enough.

 

Nothing to add.

 

I clicked "Good Post" only because there wasn't a "Great Post" option.

[flyer4ever]

Every cup winner in the salary cap era was built by drafting well. In the case of Chicago, Tampa, Pittsburgh (8 cups) there are multiple top 3 picks. Is good luck needed to have those picks in good drafts, of course. Do the Flyers give anyone hope that they would even pick the right guy in a stacked draft? Have the Flyers of the past decade shown even a trace of proper asset management? Did the presser give us all a feeling of good times a comin? Do I sound like I'm off my meds yet? Thank goodness for netflix. 

[mojo1917]

2 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

Thank goodness for netflix

Cheer season two is now streaming as is Ozark...so that should keep you going for a week and a half, at least.

[GrittyForever]

Announce a rebuild. That will convince Giroux to waive his no move clause. Trade whatever you can now for picks/prospects. Tank. 

Strip away the rot next season as much as you can and bottom out but with a wealth of picks and prospects in the cupboard.

maybe Wright, maybe Bedard, if not there's some other pretty damn good possibles coming with them. 

The key thing is the timing is right. The cap opens up for 2023    https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/flyers

 

Now is the right time to clean house. BUT, and it's a Gritty sized butt, it requires good scouting, good drafting, and sticking to that plan, not bailing on it and wasting all that cap space on stiffs again in a few years. 

I doubt we have the management ready or able to do this. But imo it's the best way and in 3-4 years we have a shiny new (fast?) team ready to challenge for years to come. 

[flyercanuck]

1 minute ago, GrittyForever said:

Announce a rebuild. That will convince Giroux to waive his no move clause. Trade whatever you can now for picks/prospects. Tank. 

Strip away the rot next season as much as you can and bottom out but with a wealth of picks and prospects in the cupboard.

maybe Wright, maybe Bedard, if not there's some other pretty damn good possibles coming with them. 

The key thing is the timing is right. The cap opens up for 2023    https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/flyers

 

Now is the right time to clean house. BUT, and it's a Gritty sized butt, it requires good scouting, good drafting, and sticking to that plan, not bailing on it and wasting all that cap space on stiffs again in a few years. 

I doubt we have the management ready or able to do this. But imo it's the best way and in 3-4 years we have a shiny new (fast?) team ready to challenge for years to come. 

 

Look how fast the Rangers rebuilt. It's doable.

 

Sadly, Fletcher is not the guy to do it.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

43 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Look how fast the Rangers rebuilt. It's doable.

 

Sadly, Fletcher is not the guy to do it.

... weren't we told that you build a team through free agency and you supplement via the draft?

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, GrittyForever said:

Tank. 

Strip away the rot next season as much as you can and bottom out but with a wealth of picks and prospects in the cupboard.

maybe Wright, maybe Bedard, if not there's some other pretty damn good possibles coming with them. 

The key thing is the timing is right. The cap opens up for 2023   

 

When I see this line of thinking it seems plausible it is not wholly unreasonable.

 

Still, I can't get behind rooting for a team to lose.

There is no guarantee that the Flyers get the first pick in either of the upcoming drafts. This year's is projected to be similar to the Kane/JvR draft next year's is projected to be like the Richards/Carter draft. Still, recent first picks by the organization haven't been locks to even play in the NHL let alone be game changers.

 

Colorado bottomed out a few years back and have won how many championships ?

And they've drafted wisely, had good luck with injuries and by all accounts have managed their cap and development well. Still zero cups, all that talent- and no chips to show for it (yet).

 

I don't think I'll ever be down for the Hinkie model, ever again. It hasn't worked for the Sixers the Orioles have been terrible for 20 years now, the Sabres haven't been good since Drury and Briere.

Losing begets losing. 

 

That said, I don't need to see Couturier or Ellis for the rest of this lost season. I don't want people getting angry because pro athletes are prideful and won't play to lose.  I don't want the stink of losing to become permanent with this club the way it has for so many others. 

 

The Flyers are in a tough spot of their own making. Making it worse guarantees nothing. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by mojo1917

[flyercanuck]

4 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

When I see this line of thinking it seems plausible it is not wholly unreasonable.

 

Still, I can't get behind rooting for a team to lose.

There is no guarantee that the Flyers get the first pick in either of the upcoming drafts. This year's is projected to be similar to the Kane/JvR draft next years is projected to be like the Richards/Carter draft. Still, recent first picks by the organization haven't been locks to even play in the NHL let alone be game changers.

 

Colorado bottomed out a few years back and have won how many championships ?

And they've drafted wisely, had good luck with injuries and by all accounts have managed their cap and development well. Still zero cups, all that talent- and no chips to show for it (yet).

 

I don't think I'll ever be down for the Hinkie model, ever again. It hasn't worked for the Sixers the Orioles have been terrible for 20 years now, the Sabres haven't been good since Drury and Briere.

Losing begets losing. 

 

That said, I don't need to see Couturier or Ellis for the rest of this lost season. I don't want people getting angry because pro athletes are prideful and won't play to lose.  I don't want the stink of losing to become permanent with this club the way it has for so many others. 

 

The Flyers are in a tough spot of their own making. Making it worse guarantees nothing. 

 

I don't want them to lose for a better draft pick. I want them to lose so people stop going to games, stop watching on TV, and finally, eventually, they're forced to clean house.

[ruxpin]

12 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Colorado bottomed out a few years back and have won how many championships ?

And they've drafted wisely, had good luck with injuries and by all accounts have managed their cap and development well. Still zero cups, all that talent- and no chips to show for it (yet).

 

No, no cups.   But you know what?  I'd settle for relevant.

Watchable, even.

 

Colorado is both.     Watching the Flyers is done for the same reason as watching a car crash...in slow motion...in black & white...backwards...dubbed with Taylor Swift love ballads.

[mojo1917]

36 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

No, no cups.   But you know what?  I'd settle for relevant.

Watchable, even.

 

Colorado is both.     Watching the Flyers is done for the same reason as watching a car crash...in slow motion...in black & white...backwards...dubbed with Taylor Swift love ballads.

Hey- don't knock Tay-tay the stans will come for you...they will come for you.

 

I would like the Flyers to be relevant and watchable too and you're right Colorado is both.  

However, I bristle at the notion that if a team stinks for a little while, the result will be everything will be alright because: high draft picks and...magic?

 

My favorite baseball team is exhibit A that sucking only begets more sucking.

One dreadful team to cheer for is enough. 

 

By all means if large contracts can be moved, and draft picks or a few depth players/prospects can be acquired this is the season- then do that. 

This season is lost, try to make the most of the situation with expiring contracts and maybe moving a youngish guy with some term on his contract for value in return.

Having the strategy of also sucking next year, is courting true league-wide, long-term irrelevance, the last 2 season's have been terrible, I'm not signing up for 5 more. 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by mojo1917

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I'm not signing up for 5 more. 

 

Exactly. I guess the only good thing about them sucking is I have saved money I haven't bought Gamecenter or center ice since the stoppage season.

 

And I won't agin till I see improvement if I do see improvement next year I may pony up for a half season package but as far as any Flyers gear I have bought any Flyers gear at all since I bought Ivan's jersey the year he scored 17 goals (tying Hedman that year). I haven't bought anything since Flyer related since a hat a or anything.

 

That saying a lot from a guy who still has his baby's Flyers booties hanging from his rear view mirror still now in his car, she was born in May 3rd 2011.

 

I bought it that year before the playoff run where they lost to the Devils.

 

They have hung there so long the black on the booties have actually faded and look gray.

 

They have a long way to go for me I don't have to waste my time watching them till.

 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I'm not signing up for 5 more. 

 

You're only saying that because you've already done 10.

 

Right there with you.

[Tomdog]

Drafting your way to the top or getting there with free agents and trades both require 2 things.

Evaluating top talent and putting an acurate price tag on that talent.

If your team can't do those 2 things you won't make it.

Chuck Fletcher has proven incapable of doing those 2 things.

Unless he can suddenly change I don't see him turning your team around.

[OccamsRazor]

15 minutes ago, Tomdog said:

Chuck Fletcher has proven incapable of doing those 2 things.

 

Well hopefully that is a reason Scott said:

 

"Right now Chuck's my man...

 

 

[SCFlyguy]

2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Having the strategy of also sucking next year, is courting true league-wide, long-term irrelevance, the last 2 season's have been terrible, I'm not signing up for 5 more. 

I hate to tell you, but it's going to be more than 5 if they don't strip it all down and get the GM, coach, and cap right.

Edited January 28, 2022 by SCFlyguy

[elmatus]

9 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Hey- don't knock Tay-tay the stans will come for you...they will come for you.

 

I would like the Flyers to be relevant and watchable too and you're right Colorado is both.  

However, I bristle at the notion that if a team stinks for a little while, the result will be everything will be alright because: high draft picks and...magic?

 

My favorite baseball team is exhibit A that sucking only begets more sucking.

One dreadful team to cheer for is enough. 

 

By all means if large contracts can be moved, and draft picks or a few depth players/prospects can be acquired this is the season- then do that. 

This season is lost, try to make the most of the situation with expiring contracts and maybe moving a youngish guy with some term on his contract for value in return.

Having the strategy of also sucking next year, is courting true league-wide, long-term irrelevance, the last 2 season's have been terrible, I'm not signing up for 5 more. 

 

 

 

I get this for sure, and I do appreciate your overall optimistic take on things. To be honest, I sometimes feel the sting of disillusion when i read some of your posts, because I was once very much the optimism-first kind of guy. I think at this point, I've just come to terms with the fact that A) my hopes were wrong, and B) there's too much actual evidence for me to try and keep up the charade of optimism. Eventually, the most realistic viewpoint sets in, and though it took time for me too, I've come to terms with it.

 

I was a big believer in the Hexy rebuild. I still think he at least tried to do things mostly the right way. I also think many of the picks made during his tenure actually turned out to be pretty solid NHLers. I've heard the same stories as all of you about how he was as an executive, and yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were a complete sh** of a boss. I mean, it's Hexy after all.

 

But, even if I concede that he did fairly well with his time, it wasn't enough to build a contender. In fact, it's in part because that rebuild didn't work, that I've come to terms with what this team is really lacking -- and that's top end talent. The current roster is not a bad roster. Many of the guys Hexy drafted are on the team now, and they're actually pretty solid! They're just not the upper echelon kind of guys a team really needs to be competitive in today's NHL.

 

Fletch on the other hand has been...

 

Honestly, I'm not even sure it's fair to blame Fletch. I feel like he was brought in to tweak a team on the cusp and make it into a contender. That to me is ridiculous right from the onset, because this team never had the players necessary to be a contender anyway. So either way, he was doomed to fail. What irks me more is that should have been plenty obvious to anyone paying attention. By the time Fletch got here at all, the team had already amassed several years of subpar play. The idea they were just a Hayes away from being actually competitive is laughable at best.

 

So either the ownership and upper brass just didn't want to admit how far this team was from contention, or they know very little about hockey, or they weren't really paying attention. Regardless, that's a crap way to try and run a professional sports team.

 

I'm not letting Fletch off the hook here either. The Hayes contract was an instant mistake. Ristolainen was a second. He's made his share of gaffes. That said, I do wonder if some of those might have been avoided, if only he weren't being asked to enact an irrational amount of optimism.

Edited January 29, 2022 by elmatus