idahophilly Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 it's a weird thing. i don't know if it happens in other sports, too, but every season hockey fans become adamant they can predict playoff success and failure by the halfway mark. and then the playoffs actually come along, with their annual display of top seed chokes, president's trophy winners getting bounced in the first round, unreasonably hot goalies, superstar disappearing acts, piled up injured lists, cinderella stories, 8 seeds making it to conf finals...and then it all gets washed away again by the following winter and we're back to the playoffs being decided by straight arithmetic.one of things years of watching NHL playoffs has taught me is that the conf finals will be anything but boston/NYR and vancouver/detroit.My oh my, that is SOOOOO true. That's why we stand pat and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahophilly Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Even though Carle says he wants to stay with the Flyers, I believe that he has to go with the market value of defensemen of his caliber (overpaid of course.) And, with Bryz's contract and the uncertainty of Pronger, it would be in the best interest of the Flyers to trade Carle for some young assets. I really don't think the Flyers will be able to afford what Carle will demand on the free-agent market. Stock up for next year!!I have no problem trading carle but I want an equal d-man that fills the role immediatly so we don't hurt ourselves this year/playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahophilly Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 After watching this afternoon's game, I say we need to do whatever it takes it shore up our defense. If we don't try to do something now by this trade deadline, it's going to be years before anyone in this organization is ready to step up. Actually, I don't think we have anyone who can. If we don't do it now, then it's got to be done this summer. We need defense. I'm pretty happy with the rookies on offense, we're pretty deep there and they'll come along. But please please please do something about the defense. I'm tired of watching afternoon games like this. I'd say do something about the goaltending too, but supposedly we already have and I've just given up on that entirely.I understand how you feel but a team should not make a decision based on a handful of games... I know I'll get flamed on that statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahophilly Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Carle is a whipping boy for the fans, but he is playing a lot better than people give him credit for.Flyers fans are like that... It's always one player or another. Briere, Bryz, Bob, Jagr, ect.... What will tomorrows flavor be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahophilly Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I guess I'm as close to being a Carle-apologist as you can be, and even I can see he hasn't done himself any favors this year - as far as increasing his value. He's had an up n down year by any measure, defensively I mean. He is certainly the whipping boy as you said, and fans love to dramatize his mistakes and overlook his contributions. But he has made more than his share of turnovers this year.If he still wants to play in Philly and is willing to sign for a reasonable raise I would like to keep him. If he hopes to score $5.5 or $6 million per then we should let him walk - or better yet (much better yet) trade him. I don't know how much of a "read" Paul is getting from Carle's agent these days but I hope he's not dreaming of $5.5 mil/year...Agreed for sure... 5-6 million is crazy money for him. 4 Maybe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahophilly Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I don't necessarily disagree with any of this (except I haven't soured on Carle this year) but some perspective is worthwhile:http://www.nhl.com/i...rtssPlayerStatsDefensemen who handle the puck a lot will get their share of turnovers. Some that have more TO's this year than Carle: Chara, Doughty, Carlson (the guy Flyers fans love to love, and who the Flyers could have drafted if they hadn't... etc, etc... and ended up with Carle), Bieksa...Not saying I wouldn't like to see Carle turn the puck over less frequently, but it does kind of come with the job.You mean he isn't perfect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 You mean he isn't perfect?Kind of shocking, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahophilly Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Oh, don't worry. They'll be onto Briere, Jagr or Bryz/Bob soon enough. Then back to Carle next week maybe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 But the other players you listed are all light years better than Carle in either the physical dept, and ability to play defense or offensive skill. Carle can skate and make a decent pass, he cant shoot at all, and he is not defensively dominating, nor is he physical. The talents of Chara, Bieksa, Carlson and Doughty are way better than Carle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Light years? Reallly? Carle had more points 5 on 5 then any of them last year (Carle led all NHL defensemen in 5 on 5 scoring). Only Chara and Bieksa had a better +/- (Carle was 6th among NHL defensemen). And most of them are also making a lot more money than Carle. The Carle bashers are starting to sound kind of like Buddy Ryan talking about Chris Carter- "all he does is catch touchdowns". All Carle does is generate offense while playing respectable defense. Who needs guys like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) @RonJeremywhile i won't argue that those are for the most part better overall players than carle, did you notice the part where that entire list has turned the puck over MORE than carle has? has handed the puck over MORE often than carle? now, neither you nor i sit and watch ~80 canucks games to see what kind of dman bieska is, game in/game out, but if he is coughing the puck up more often than carle, i can promise you he would be absolutely skewered here.it's a thing about flyer fans, they hate their own almost without fail. with appologies to rad for getting upset when he talked in these broad generalizations, i'm gonna step up to that plate for a second. flyers fans have an amazing talent for seeing nothing but the worst of their own guys while seeing nothing but the best of everyone else. people here worshipping at the alter of chara would be jumping up and down if he were a flyer about how he doesn't use his size like he could (dude is 6'9"/255lbs, but is 79th in league in hits, coburn and meszaros BOTH have more than him) and be sick and tired of his 46 giveaways this season (more than any flyers' dman). carlson? 66 giveaways! second worst in the league, behind only kovalchuk.we bring in any of those guys who are more talented, as you say, and the puck will be turned over MORE often than with carle. everyone on that list hits LESS than coburn or meszaros. but, by and large, people here are unconcerned by such things. big names, grass is greener, our guys suck.a couple other little tidbits: takeaways. no one on that list have more than carle, meszaros or timonen. bieska and carlson are tied with them, but none are better. and carle has more shot blocks than anyone on that list.so...all of those guys turn the puck over more than carle, take the puck away less than carle, block fewer shots than carle, hit less than coburn. but they are golden.oh, and hey, timonen is outscoring all of them. and of the bunch, only chara and bieska are outscoring carle..and then by all of 3 and 2 points, respectively.have you ever wondered why players come to philly and continually disapoint? forsberg, hatcher, primeau, reonick, pronger, briere, hartnell, biron, bryzgalov...think maybe it's because this fan base is terrible at evaluating out-of-market talent, and buy the hype like it was marketed by steve jobs?/rantsorry. turns out i did argue that those were overall better players. Edited February 15, 2012 by aziz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 If Bryz lets in another two soft goals in a game, he'll be the whipping boy again in no time. The aggravating thing is, the defense lately has totally failed Bob by allowing those back door goals (though I have a sneaky suspicion that Gus is to blame for the majority of them) - and Bryz over the entire season fails his defense by his inability to make a simple save or squaring up to a shooter.Sigh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 @aziz - couldn't agree more. It's understandable, we watch every game (for the most part) and see every mistake (or what we perceive as mistakes) these guys make. Then we watch highlights on NHL network and see the great plays other players make and... "wow, wish we had THAT GUY instead of our STINKIN' BUM!" I know it's going to happen but it's frustrating regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Well lets talk about the stat called turnover, Im sure there is no way of gauging this, but does it count as a turnover, if you give up the puck and get it back? what if you give up the puck 5 times and get it right back and no goals are scored. What if you have one turnover a game, but its in front of the net and leds to a goal. , Do they count the amount of times you handle the puck as to the amount of times you turn it over? Maybe those guys handle the puck more. I guess there are levels of turnovers. All I can go by is waht I see. Isee Carle having a weak shot thats constantly blocked, I see Carle nevever playing physical, Isee Carle as an average defender. I do admit, he can make a pass, and skate, and thats about it. Carle is a decent dman, but Id rather have any of those other guys listed .JAck Straw , as far as Carles stats from last year, dont forget he was paired with Pronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 @RonJeremyPronger was hurt for a significant portion of last year too.No arguement about his shot , actually i don't see too many of our guys blistering the biscuit at the net, with this bunch it is either or...high velocity or accuracy, pick one.Carle handles the puck a lot, as much or more than any of the chara , beiseka, blah blah blahs...and turns it over less.He hits too, just because he isn't cross checking guys out of the crease the way we want to see, doesn't mean he's not riding guys off the puck, and knocking a guy off his pins in the corners...he is a good player one that i'd rather have on my team than on a different team we have to play 4 to 8 times a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yes, the other mantra of Carle's critics- "he played with Pronger". Except Pronger was all of +7 last year while Carle was +30. So if Pronger was helping Carle that much he must have been doing a lot of it from the bench while Carle was on the ice. And you don't think that being paired with someone with Carle's mobility helps Pronger, who is becoming Hatcher-esque in his (lack of) mobility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OH1FlyersFan Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I understand how you feel but a team should not make a decision based on a handful of games... I know I'll get flamed on that statement.I hear you. A sound policy. That post was just my kneejerk reaction. But I do think something needs to happen on defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 All I can go by is waht I see.then maybe you ought to go by what you see. how many times a season do you see bieksa play? 4? maybe 5? chara, what, 9, 10 times? doughty, maybe twice? and yet you are very comfortable pronouncing the statistics misleading, and handing these guys some kind of uninformed status above the guy whose warts you see 3 or 4 times every week. carle's statistics are misleadingly good, because you see how bad he is. doughty's statistics are misleadingly bad, because TSN says he's great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Well then if Carle is this great dman, i guess hes gonna be asking for about 6 million a year? Are we going to pay him? Is he worth it?According to most people Chara and Doughty would be considered a first pairing dman probably the #1 guy, where do you rate Carle. i put him as a number 3, theproblem is our #2 is old and our #1 is injured. So are we gonna pay Carle #1 $$$ to keep him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyguys03 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Because the Flyers ARE a contender. They currently have the 2nd most points in the Eastern Conference, you can't be much more of a contender than that. Even if it's not "their year", the playoff experience will be invaluable for young guys like Read, Voracek, Couturier, Schenn, etc... Timonen and Carle are two of the team's leaders in TOI, they rely on those guys a lot. Trade one of them and the chances of making the playoffs diminish significantly. If you're this close, and I do think the Flyers are close, there's no point in taking a step backwards.They aren't really a contender. Not with this defense and goaltending. The regular season does a good job of fooling people. How many games have they won against top tier playoff games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Well then if Carle is this great dman, i guess hes gonna be asking for about 6 million a year? Are we going to pay him? Is he worth it?According to most people Chara and Doughty would be considered a first pairing dman probably the #1 guy, where do you rate Carle. i put him as a number 3, theproblem is our #2 is old and our #1 is injured. So are we gonna pay Carle #1 $$$ to keep himNobody is saying he's "great", and no, he's not worth 6 million. But he doesn't suck and he is a valuable piece on the team. Coburn will be getting 4.5 starting next year, Carle's worth about that too. Edited February 15, 2012 by JackStraw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Serious contender, maybe not. I don't think they're going to win a Cup this year and I didn't think so before the season started either. But they're a playoff team and have been closer to the top of the conference than the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahophilly Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 then maybe you ought to go by what you see. how many times a season do you see bieksa play? 4? maybe 5? chara, what, 9, 10 times? doughty, maybe twice? and yet you are very comfortable pronouncing the statistics misleading, and handing these guys some kind of uninformed status above the guy whose warts you see 3 or 4 times every week. carle's statistics are misleadingly good, because you see how bad he is. doughty's statistics are misleadingly bad, because TSN says he's great.I don't always agree with you aziz but that is a spot on view of fans in general... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 @RonJeremyI'd rather have Carle than not, I do not want him for more than 5 + million a year though, i think the market may price him off the team; and i think we'll have a hard time replacing his minutes and the quality with which he plays them . If like Jack says we can sign him for Coburn money I do that without hesitation. i think he'll be able to command more on the FA market though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalFlyfan Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Everyone likes to talk about which player sucks lately, but at the end of the day it's the coach who puts these guys in position to succeed. Look at the Rags smothering defense this year: :Ryan Mcdougnah who?. Michael Sauer wha ? Anton Stralman huh ? and what's that guys name who's sucked on every team he's played on ? Eminger ?and who the hell is Stu Bickell ? not to mention a relative rookie Del Zotto. If Lavi was coaching the Rangers they would be a mess with his wide open crap system.Thoughts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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