Blog - Internet TIMONEN RIPS TEAMMATES AFTER ANOTHER LOSS TO NYR

[mojo1917]

@JackStraw

@Podein25

thanks, my eyes weren't seeing a team that played so poorly we need to fire the ineffective coach. i saw a team that had trouble with its penalty kill. 5 on 5 we handled those teams for long stretchs of the game. the way the opponents especially the rangers scored is of some concern , sh!t was way too easy but i thought we had good jump sunday night after that somewhat demoralizing defeat by the Rangers and had 3 pretty effective lines. i think running laviolette outta town is fool hardy . there is something not right with the way the team has been playing defense though if i had the answer i'd send it to Pete straight away.

[SpikeDDS]

Dear Spin,

Thanks for the response. I can see your point of view and respect it. However, for the amount of money these guys are getting paid, and at this point in the season, perhaps Peter should comment in the media to light a fire under some butts. They should be held responsible for uninspired play and a benching for a game or two shouldn't shatter their ego. If it does, then they shouldn't be wearing orange and black.

PuckMeister

If he's gonna try to light a fire, he should do it like the great Scotty Bowman did: NOTHING lights a fire like a healthy scratch game. Scotty did that to Brendan Shanahan more than once while he was with the Wings, and just about every time, Shanny cam out the next few games and tore it up! Scotty was a genius at pushing the right buttons on his players. I'm quite certain that not all players would respond well to that. It's only 1 tool in the toolbox, but it might be worth a try.

[doom88]

I thought we played well too. Giving up all the PP goals is worrisome to be sure, and our coverage of that cross-ice stuff down low absolutely has to improve, but I don't think it's panic time by any stretch. I particuarly don't understand those who say this is a result of lack of effort or whatever. This is a hard working team with lots of youthful enthusiasm driving it. It's fun to watch them play!

I don't understand Flyer fans sometimes. And I've been one for ~40 years.

Overall I agree.

To slightly depart, it is irritating that our top guys don't show up every game like NYR Callahan or Det Lidstrom/Dats/Zetts/Kronwall, which concerns me. Also, I have no freaking clue why the D can't defend the backside opportunities which give the goalies zero chance.

Despite that, I do think the Flyers are playing very well overall. Every team has its struggles, but despite entering the season under "I don’t know if we got better or worse, but we got different", success bred expectations and consequently elevated criticism.

[Podein25]

This defensive corps on paper is easily one of the best in the entire league

Says who? One third of them are rookies. Carle most people here think is terrible and he isn't even on most other people's radar. That leaves Timonen, Coburn and Meszaros. I like all 3, but few hockey people would say they are "easily one of the best"

If the PK doesn't improve soon, maybe I'll come around to saying it's the coaching. Until then, I'm just gonna pound sheep

[JackStraw]

our coverage of that cross-ice stuff down low absolutely has to improve

This has been a problem for a while, even when the team is going good. See, this is where my diabolically diabolic logic comes in... you get a guy like Hal Gill, he can't move... so he just plants himself in the slot and the East-West stuff down low is taken care of, voila!

[Podein25]

a guy like Hal Gill, he can't move... so he just plants himself in the slot and the East-West stuff down low is taken care of, voila!

Yeah, but you were probably also a big fan of Brad Marsh and his size 42 skates.

[doom88]

That's so crazy it makes sense!

[JackStraw]

@Podein25 - 42?

[Podein25]

@JackStraw - ok, they were more like size 14 I guess

[The Quigster]

That explains why he never fell down! Could he swim standing up?

[JackStraw]

@Podein25 - sure they weren't 43?

[Podein25]

@JackStraw - i'm not prepared to be sure about anything these days, 'cept maybe taxes, death and the eternal frustrations of being a Flyer fan

[Spinorama]

@quigly46-

Maybe you mean the d plays small, but they certainly are not small in stature.

Carle- 6' 205

Coburn- 6'5 220

Meszarus- 6'2 223

Timmonen- 5'10 195

Bourdon- 6' 206

Gustafsson- 5'10 180

Lilja- 6'3 220

Hardly what you would call small.

they sure play small

[doom88]

Historically, though small, Timonen has played well above his stature. He has had a lot of success against OV (when he was relevant), and also Crosby/Malkin...until Kunitz dirty hit Timonen out of the playoffs. Scumbag. No penalty either IIRC.

You don't have to clobber everything in sight to be an excellent defenseman. Neither Lidstrom nor Neidermayer did it. Like Timonen in those past references, positioning is paramount - then skating ability, then passing (especially breakout passing).

[Spinorama]

Dear Spin,

Thanks for the response. I can see your point of view and respect it. However, for the amount of money these guys are getting paid, and at this point in the season, perhaps Peter should comment in the media to light a fire under some butts. They should be held responsible for uninspired play and a benching for a game or two shouldn't shatter their ego. If it does, then they shouldn't be wearing orange and black.

PuckMeister

Hey Puck,

I hear ya and agree, these guys are professionals, you aren't trying to talk a kid into doing homework, these guys are paid pros. As far as calling them out in the media, ask Terry Murray about the effects of discussing team troubles in the media.

A benching or two or three though would be the ticket though. The Flyers could doll it up to the media however they want to protect the image of the player but that player, and EVERYONE in the dressing room knows why he isn't playing and that's about as strong as a message as you can send. Why they don't employ that tactic more is beyond me. Could you imagine being Danny Briere and being a healthy scratch for Jody Shelley?

[doom88]

Actually, scratch Giroux for Shelly. That will stun the whole room, and EVERYONE who needs a nice healthy scratch will respond.

[JackStraw]

@JackStraw - i'm not prepared to be sure about anything these days, 'cept maybe taxes, death and the eternal frustrations of being a Flyer fan

That's sensibly sensible.

[Vanflyer]

@Podein25

"Yeah, but you were probably also a big fan of Brad Marsh and his size 42 skates."

Are your sheep jealous??

[canoli]

With all that said, I am not going to disagree for even two seconds that our forwards have to do a better job. But let’s run down the roster. Other than Talbott (obviously) and perhaps Giroux, who do you expect to lock down and shut down the opposing forwards?

I expect - because I've seen it plenty of times - Briere, Jagr, Hartnell and all the rookies cover the point when their-side D-man pinches. I've seen all of them (the fwds) get back quickly and break up plays. I've seen them make nice keeps at the point to keep the 4check alive - all after one of our D-men has either pinched in to catch a wheel-around or after they've led the rush and are below the hash marks.

What I'm saying is don't sell the system short and don't think for a minute our forwards can't defend. None of them are Selke candidates and Gagne is long gone. Jagr and Briere will always be weak-ish links on D... but we've all seen them - including Jagr and Breire - defend well enough when they had to.

Lavy's system has one D-man on the forecheck as often as possible, looking to feed the point. I disagree that they're "worn out" after 2 periods of Laviolette hockey. They love that stuff. I guarantee you ask Kimmo or any of them "Who'd you rather play for, Peter or Fonzie?" and they'd tell you Peter for the exact reason you're criticizing - his system of uptempo, attack-mode hockey. It's fun to play that way; we've just gotten way too loosey-goosey in our own end lately against 2 very good teams.

I would like to "second" Podein's notion that "Enough is enough" about the "system." Kimmo mentioned it the other night and now everyone wants to read into it so that it means "We Have No System!" but Kimmo didn't say that - he said the Rags play their system every night and they play it the same way. Kimmo was simply saying "we don't." We don't play the same way every night and it's begun to bite us in the a s s against good teams.

Remember what we did to Nashville just a short week ago? Then we manhandled the Leafs all night. The Flyers can play good, tough hockey, all of them, and the rookies - they'll probably tire somewhat over the next 2 months and become less effective, make more mistakes. But that's what rookies do. There's a good chance that's what's going on with Bob's softies - 2nd-year-being-a-backup-make-every-game-count jitters...the focus is not quite "there" yet, ready for prime time. Maybe. Hard to know. I wish we could've found out this year...He sure looks to me like a diamond-in-the-rough but playing so sporadically it's impossible to tell.

Wait'll next year - if god-willing we keep this team together. Homer better not shuffle the deck again - the pieces are in place pretty much. Leave well-enough alone and tighten up the focus, the execution - fundamentals - defend the net, make good first passes, come through the N zone as a 5-man unit, don't get cute and fancy in the O zone... Like that...

[ruxpin]

I expect - because I've seen it plenty of times - Briere, Jagr, Hartnell and all the rookies cover the point when their-side D-man pinches. I've seen all of them (the fwds) get back quickly and break up plays. I've seen them make nice keeps at the point to keep the 4check alive - all after one of our D-men has either pinched in to catch a wheel-around or after they've led the rush and are below the hash marks.

I think that this is slightly different than the "lock down" thing Mad Dog requested. He kind of (I think) was looking for the Lappy or Betts type player that will do it all the time. I mean, just because I once wrote a good post (it was a dreary autumn night many many years ago), don't expect it all the time. Same with the above examples.

Otherwise, good points, canoli.

[canoli]

well sure, you're right and I should've been clearer - I don't expect any of our guys to be Lucic or Datsyuk - much less Lappy. But my point was you don't really need those types of players if everybody does their job most of the time. There will be breakdowns, and when you ice a pair of rookies for a 3rd-pair, and you got 4 or 5 other rooks in your lineup you can expect blown coverages. But even with occasional mistakes - by rookies or veterans - we could (and should) be a much better defensive team - not despite Lavy's style but within that style. We've gotten too loose and sloppy that's all - and we did it against superior teams. The PK is a microcosm of the Team D and it's no surprise we've struggled on it lately.

[LegionOfDoom]

Hey Puck,

I hear ya and agree, these guys are professionals, you aren't trying to talk a kid into doing homework, these guys are paid pros. As far as calling them out in the media, ask Terry Murray about the effects of discussing team troubles in the media.

A benching or two or three though would be the ticket though. The Flyers could doll it up to the media however they want to protect the image of the player but that player, and EVERYONE in the dressing room knows why he isn't playing and that's about as strong as a message as you can send. Why they don't employ that tactic more is beyond me. Could you imagine being Danny Briere and being a healthy scratch for Jody Shelley?

Speaking of Terry Murray he is a very good defensive systems coach, I was about to interview him when the Legion Of Doom where playing but I didn't want to interupt their Team dinner at the hotel, especially with Chris T. was looking at me as if I was gonna hold up the soup kitchen, so I asked for some face time after their dinner, but decided to quietly reschedule at another time.

The point is I think we should Hire Terry Murray as an assistant Coach or Assistant Defensive Coach to complement our attacking style, to teach the fundamentals of Team D, yet keep an up tempo style. He would be a good call to bring in.

Pistacchio and Carchidasian are you listening out there? Pass the mustard...

[aziz]

Remember what we did to Nashville just a short week ago? Then we manhandled the Leafs all night.

see, i'd call those examples of "when the system works", while the rags and detroit games were "when the system doesn't work". against nashville and toronto couldn't stop the flyers' offensive possession, and the "system" did exactly what it was supposed to: hold the zone and tie the other team in knots. problem is, when a team is able to remove that offensive zone possession and focus the play the other way, the system can't really handle it. the d and the forwards are too spread out, there is too much focus on quick-ups and not enough in puck carrier support on the breakout.

i like the way laviolette coaches when it clicks, it can really take advantage of a team that can't find an answer. he doesn't really have a plan B or a secondary posture for those times that the flyers can't press the offense 3 of every 4 minutes. when a team like NYR or the wings make it obvious they won't wilt in the face of the flyers offensive pressure, a different tack has to be taken. trying to force the issue just leaves the holes we've seen develop recently.

[RonJeremy]

Whoever wrote that Gustafsson is 5ft 10 180, dont you know those totlall bogus stats. that guy is about 2 inches and 25 lbs lighter than that. They also say Briere weighs 180, if Brioere weighs 180 I have a 9 inch meatpipe. Oh wait a minute, i am Ron jeremy

[canoli]

when a team like NYR or the wings make it obvious they won't wilt in the face of the flyers offensive pressure, a different tack has to be taken. trying to force the issue just leaves the holes we've seen develop recently.

Yes...sorta...but - 1) you gotta dance with the girl that brung ya, and 2) "she" looked perfectly good-enough against the Wings on Sunday. I thought that game looked more like 2 evenly-matched teams than what your quote [seems to] describe, at least the way I read it. Bob let in an "iffy" goal and the other ones were - well I forget now but my point is I didn't see a superior Wings team versus an inept Flyers' D, I saw 2 good teams go at it and the big difference was our PK and PP, neither of which did a good enough job.

The Rangers game was an entirely different affair. I didn't see the whole game so I don't know what happened but what I saw suggests to me we played with our heads up our butts for long stretches, letting the Rangers forwards out-position us, out-work us and ultimately take advantage of the holes created by their hard work. I don't know whether that's a systemic failure but I'm inclined to think it was not, it was more about what Kimmo said after the game - "only 1/2 our guys were playing the right way" (or whatever he said)