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TIMONEN RIPS TEAMMATES AFTER ANOTHER LOSS TO NYR


Guest Irishjim

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I thought that game looked more like 2 evenly-matched teams than what your quote [seems to] describe, at least the way I read it

no, i agree. thing is, have you noticed the flyers tend to lose those "evenly-matched teams" games? from what i've seen, while teams like the wings don't dominate the flyers the way the rags did, the flyers can't get any traction against them. they end up in these hanging-on games where they are constantly responding and ultimately coming up short. the games don't tend to go back and forth....from the opening faceoff, it was the flyers trying to keep up with the wings. and, as you said, but for a terrible PK, almost doing it. it was never their tone to set, though. i guess that's what i'm talking about: laviolette's system is about dictating play by maintaining posession in the offensive zone, and if his teams can't do that, they end up hanging on for dear life. it'd be nice if there was a different playbook he could switch to that was about defensive coverage and structural offense when the high pressure go-go-go thing isn't cutting it. without that, he is relying on the other team to allow the flyers' game.

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have you noticed the flyers tend to lose those "evenly-matched teams" games?

I guess so, I mean yes, that's my recollection now that you mention it - I wonder what the record shows, if we could quantify the term "evenly-matched." In any case you're right, when the Flyers are in those games they don't do anything different. They don't go to a more puck-possession type of game, they don't stack the blue line and focus on Team D..etc. My feeling is they shouldn't have to change their basic plan of attack; if you're good enough, if you execute well-enough then your forwards don't allow Anisemov to get goal-side, they don't get drawn down too low and leave the dots wide open for good looks...

Ultimately I know your main point is correct, a good coach - like a good bandleader - adjusts his game to suit his players. Zappa demanded his tour musicians know every style and he called on them to play everything from bop to reggae to Stravinsky, all in the same night - sometimes in the same song. But when he led the LSO he gave those guys music suited to their talents and experience.

I don't know if any NHL coach has more than 1 main strategy or system that he teaches during a season. Over years of playing the same way the Wings "puck-possession" identity forms itself, the way the Devils trap did in the '90s. But switching from go-go-go to "D-first" seems like an awfully big leap...While it's true good teams know how to lock down games and "shut the door" after building a lead, I've always thought it was the product of a slight change in strategy - easing off the D-men in the O zone, dumping deep more often - along with a renewed energy and focus on individual jobs. You get your guys to double-down on their effort once they score a few goals and if they do it often enough - and your goaltender is solid - you become a team that can hold a lead. I think...?

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My feeling is they shouldn't have to change their basic plan of attack; if you're good enough, if you execute well-enough then your forwards don't allow Anisemov to get goal-side, they don't get drawn down too low and leave the dots wide open for good looks...

you aren't wrong. i just worry that the approach the flyers are using isn't capable of enforcing its will unless the other team allows it. that it isn't a matter of executing well enough, it is a matter of the other team screwing up enough...and if they don't screw up, the flyers are pinching against a brick wall.

i don't think laviolette's coaching has a whole lot to say about the defensive coverage. rudamentary stuff, but i think he relies primarily on the other team not getting the chance to pressure the flyers in their own zone. if the other team denies that offensive posession, though, there isn't a mid-90's redwing's style structural offensive plan to fall back on, and the flyers are on the ill-equipt heels. they don't know how to pass into the zone and hold pucks, it's all about throwing it hard around and having an aggressive defenseman meet it half way to twist the others guys out of coverage. have the opposing wingers beat the pinching dman to that puck, though, and offensive possession is over. have the opposing wingers beat the pinching dman to that puck consistently, and the flyers end up spending more time in their own zone than anywhere else, and with nothing but elementary coaching defensively, that's a back-door-tap-in problem.

i don't know. it's like a football team with no running game. if the secondary shuts down the pass, they got nothing. (look at me making football analogies, i have no idea what i'm talking about, but it feels right, lol).

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have the opposing wingers beat the pinching dman to that puck, though, and offensive possession is over.

well not to be argumentative for its own sake, but I have to know - suppose more often than not our D-man wins that race and gains possession - which of course is Lavy's design. Then we're in on the 4check and our cycle game begins, the umbrella forms and we (hopefully) have Harts or Simmonds set up in front.

Because we lose the foot races for possession doesn't mean our system of attack is ill-conceived. I think the only conclusion you can draw from a lost foot race is "we need to be better." I know that's elementary and unsatisfying as an answer but when you lose the foot races in Lavy's system there are no concessions - you've opened yourself up to forwards playing D and D-men hustling back, hopefully getting there in time before the puck is in our net.

You're right, Lavy's style depends on the opposition "screwing up" as you put it. But his style of play, when we're doing it right forces teams to screw up. It's risky and maybe it's the wrong system for a rookie-laden team, but it's effective more often than not, as evidenced by our record, a winning record established with a terribly inconsistent starting goaltender by the way.

We may be in danger of driving the conversation over the cliff at this point. I'm willing to concede there are better systems or styles for the Flyers this year, strategies that would alleviate or at least minimize our weaknesses. But I don't expect much to change while Lavy is in charge. I think we better get used to "we need to be better" as the only answer after a loss.

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@canoli

Then why, in your opinion, the team D looks lost in many games since the season started? I mean there could be a legit reason other than the system, but then what is it?

How can you also explain that our d-men almost always look lost and get caught up out of position on the counter rush? They look especially bad if you look at them as a unit instead of individually. And I am not even counting Bourdon and Gustavson. But Kimo, Meszaros, Carle and Coburn look inapt on many nights. They look burned out towards te end of games. You are saying that's not being the case. OK, then maybe I am not seeing something that you are, because to me, they sure look tired. And as the season progresses, this up-tempo, go-go, reckless abandon-type of play will only fatigue them further.

Yes, they won more games than they lost, which is stating the obvious.... but we both agree (I think) that the team D sucks. In many games they won, they simply got away with bad defense.

See, that's where you *do* need the likes of Lucic, David Backes, Mike Richards, Ryan Kessler, and Brad Marchands to be on the team. I would claim that the overall crappy play of the team's defense is partially - while not exclusively - is a result of Homer's not having addressed this area at all. He lost Betts, Richards, and Lappy without finding a suitable replacement.

Players like Jarome Iginla, Jagr, Briere and Hartnell, although *can* defend, they are not used for their defensive play and rarely, if ever, receive time on the penalty kill.

I remember at one time, the line of Otto, Podein and whoever else was with them (Trent Klatt?) was used to shut down the opposing line. And they were quite effective at that. Plus, Brind'Amour was always among the kings of defense... While I certainly don't expect to have the entire line intended *just* for that (although it would be nice), why having at least several players on the team is too much to ask? I mean, if the team overall was more than capable of playing a solid team defense and not allowing glaring, inexcusable break-downs, sure... I would agree with you. But exactly *because* the defense overall sucks, I'd say there is a void.

Hartnell, Briere and Jagr are what they are. You would be naive if you expect them to suddenly pick up the defensive play. Why didn't they do it by now? But Reed and Couturier (and maybe even Voracek since he is still very young) should all get better in that department next year, if not even sooner.

Edited by Mad Dog
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well not to be argumentative for its own sake, but I have to know - suppose more often than not our D-man wins that race and gains possession - which of course is Lavy's design

well, right. and thus we have the games against toronto/nashville as opposed to the games against NYR/detroit. my concern is that the flyers aren't in control of thier destiny on it, if the other guys don't give it up, the flyers can't take it from them.

the counter point were those russian-heavy wings teams of the 90's. i remember watching them and thinking it didn't matter what the other team did. great defense or poor defense, the wings' percision passing and perfectly executed "routes" for lack of a better word sliced teams apart. they built thier offense, constructed it. the flyers try to...win it by forcing a series of 50-50 battles and hoping to come out on top.

i dunno. when it works it works, i guess.

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it's like a football team with no running game. if the secondary shuts down the pass, they got nothing

Exactly. And the centre in hockey is akin to the long snapper in football.

Lol, good times.

Edited by Podein25
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Well see I don't think the "Team D sucks" and I certainly don't agree with the Keystone Cops characterization you seem to make. I don't say we're an "excellent" or an "outstanding team defensively but I think by and large we hold our own.

To my eyes we're thisclose to being a damn good team on both sides of the ice - IF only our $60 million dollar would play like one. By "thisclose" I certainly don't mean "one 'stud' D-man away" or anything like that, I mean the big picture, what the team can look like next year and in the years to come. Give Bourdon, Gus and the rest of rookies some time and experience, keep teaching and expect better as they grow. Hasn't this year already been a welcome surprise, how good we are? It has to me. The pitiful excuse for goaltending we've gotten by Bryz and Pronger going out - other than that this year has been fabulous.

I will watch more closely on Thursday and look for what you mentioned but right now I honestly don't think "team D looks lost in many games" and "burned out towards the end of games" is a fair assessment.

You make a great point about having a shutdown line and if we had the likes of P. Bergeron or Chris Kunitz, M. Richards with a couple Asham-types - or if Lappy was still going I'd certainly try to create one. You do need guys who excel at 2-way hockey, I just don't think we're woefully under-represented in that category, nor do I believe the Flyers need to trade for those types of players.

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did i get it right, though? "secondary" = safeties and cornerbacks and pass defense and whatnot?

As far as I can tell, yes, but to be sure, in future you should sprinkle in the odd reference to "dime packages," "Bear 4-6 stunts" and such.

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Respectfully BOI

I don't know where you get that our defensmen can't skate, the scouting report on coburn, great skater, carle excellent skater, timmonen above average, metzaros above average, gustaffson , a lot like timmonen, the only guy seeing significant minutes that is meh with the skating is bourdon....i've seen nothing with these guys that shows all of the sudden they're subpar in that area.

who does Holmgren make a trade for ? if the system is that broke and no one can skate, bringing in a couple of the available pu-pu platter guys won't help at all. Gill ? he'd look like a traffic pylon, Sutton ? don't know enough about him, probably no better than coburn though.

our current top 4 are not the bums you make them out to be.

the thing i've noticed in the d zone is there isn't a whole lot of support coming from the forwards, they're fast breaking the second they see rubber on an orange blade and if the outlet isn't good then their man is open going the other way and the defensemen have 2 guys to mark not just one.

this is a young team that will make mistakes, i know they're pros. but let's be honest here, did you think they were headed for a cup this year after trading away 60 goals . the captain the leading scorer, and top face off guy ?

the off season moves were puzzling at best, none of the signings made me think , this is the year, we're a lock. I hate losing in teh division too, but with 7 rookies dressing things like this are going to happen.

Couldn't agree more. Just make the playoffs is the main thing and see what happens. We could make a run. I know its a massive tall order to beat either the rangers or bruins much less both but you never know. Lets see what happens for the remainder of the season and not panick over our d-men. Far from all the blame do they deserve... (I think I was channeling yoda there)...

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Maybe the reason the Flyers lose the close games is that 'it' factor? Maybe its that intangible difference between a team half-full of rookies and a team of veterans?

Or bluntly, roster continuity? Let's see what happens when Philly is 90% healthy for a significant period of time, or other teams are less.

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