Lavi's system is not working

[trevluk]

Anyone else think it is time for our coach to recognize that his run and gun system is not working and will get us no where in the long run? I like Lavi and dont think we necessarily need a coaching change but maybe it is time he wakes up and recognizes his own short comings in the style of play he is trying to implement with the team that he has. It seems like he is trying to force a square peg in a round hole and the good teams in the league just pick us apart. This is not a Stanley Cup team this year for sure, but maybe if he starts to tweak and make changes now they can get it right by next year with a better and more experienced roster.

[Digityman]

Anyone else think it is time for our coach to recognize that his run and gun system is not working and will get us no where in the long run? I like Lavi and dont think we necessarily need a coaching change but maybe it is time he wakes up and recognizes his own short comings in the style of play he is trying to implement with the team that he has. It seems like he is trying to force a square peg in a round hole and the good teams in the league just pick us apart. This is not a Stanley Cup team this year for sure, but maybe if he starts to tweak and make changes now they can get it right by next year with a better and more experienced roster.

I like the run and gun style but it's clearly not working. I think the idea was Bryz was going to be able to clean up where the D fell apart. Obviously that's not happening so it's time for more team defense.

[Poulin20]

The problem is that this is Lavy's style and he is not going to change it. Just like Hitch's,Tort's, and Lemaire's style is the defensive smothering and they arent going to change it.

Homer knew this when he hired Lavy and probably agreed with this style as this is the way the league is trying to direct teams. (You saw how well the Hitch style worked immediately post lockout). Since Homer hired this guy it is incumbent upon him to get players that work in this style I.E. responsible defensemen. He probably figured we were good with Pronger, Mez, and O'Donnell (last year) and Coby, he has Carle around for some puck moving offense and has to plug holes with the rest. Odie didnt pan out and Coburn has regressed, Pronger is out and Carle is not there to defend. MAB and Gus are still works in progress. He also thought that Bryz would clean up any mess left by the D. He didn't anticipate that Bryz was a mess himself (who did??).

I don't blame Lavy. If anything it is somewhat Homers fault as this is what he wrought. Although I dont totally blame him either as things havent panned out the way he planned. He doesnt have a crystal ball and took some calculated risks, many of which have been great some not so great (BRYZ). We havent had much luck. Meanwhile look at the Rags, Lunkhead never played this well in goal before and the rest of those punks never played this well under Tort's system before. Somehow they have pulled it together, but before this year it wasnt all roses for them either.

If the Flyers were smart they would use this year as what they originally planned, a rebuilding year. They have a nice young and affordable offensive core who play with heart, they need to address defense in the off season and see how Bryz does the rest of the year and into next year. Maybe he will get his crap together after one season under his belt and the off season. I think it would be a major mistake at this time to "go for it" this year as we just arent there yet but have a ton to build on. Lavy's system should work in the "new" NHL and they need to help him make it work.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Poulin20

[SoCalFlyfan]

@Poulin20

I completely disagree with everything you said. Lavi is responsible for the positioning and style of play of the defense. I cringe evrey time Timonen or Carle is grinding the boards in the offensive zone like they're Trent Klatt and Shjon Podein while Briere is back playing defense. Also, when was the last time we blocked a shot ? Is that homers fault ? Lavi IS the guy we should be holding responsible right now, not Homer. Sure Homer botched the goalie situation but he otherwise assembled a pretty decent team.

[mojo1917]

he has the forwards to play his style, he even has some defenseman that can play his style too, so to say he's trying to fit a square peg into a round hole isn't the best analogy for me. he's got the personell to play his puck possession style. there is a lack of consistencey from one game to the next as far as execution goes which i think is a result of having 7 rookies dress to play in the NHL. They're rookies so some of the forwards maybe don't come back to support the d to receive the outlet everytime some of the defensemen get brain cramped when pressured and do stupid things it happens when your getting your OJT at the highest level of play

To be honest i don't know what the hell happened on the PK today, we got to looking like the keystone cops chasing their forwards around not a whole lot of discipline there,

honestly i was expecting a swoon from these guys at some point, this is a young team we have high expectations for them but we need to be realistic and realize there are going to be nights when rookies play like rookies.

[jkearse123]

Anyone else think it is time for our coach to recognize that his run and gun system is not working and will get us no where in the long run? I like Lavi and dont think we necessarily need a coaching change but maybe it is time he wakes up and recognizes his own short comings in the style of play he is trying to implement with the team that he has. It seems like he is trying to force a square peg in a round hole and the good teams in the league just pick us apart. This is not a Stanley Cup team this year for sure, but maybe if he starts to tweak and make changes now they can get it right by next year with a better and more experienced roster.

This is neither Lavy nor Holmgren's fault.

The Flyers are hindered by an injury to their HOF captain defenseman -- which would slow down any team.

Imagine the Bruins without Chara, Red Wings without Lidstrom, etc.

And I know, it's tough to play the injury card but for the Flyers CP20 was the key to a cup.

The offense is one of those where you can plug in a lot of different players that are probably average and make them look good, see Ville Leino and probably Matt Read.

IMO, the key for the Flyers right now is to get a new #1 defenseman. Timmo is awesome and a legend, but he [just like any defenseman] can't do it on his own

The fact of the matter is the coach nor the GM are the problems; the Flyers have an unfortunate history with injuries and this year is no different.

[aziz]

It seems like he is trying to force a square peg in a round hole and the good teams in the league just pick us apart.

it isn't a square peg/round hole problem. it's just such a risky system to play. if the flyers are able to contain the offensive zone with aggressive pinching by the D, we've seen that they can pound teams with relentless offensive pressure. if the other team, though, is able to push past the pinch, things are thin going the other way. the other side of it is the two wingers always looking for counter-rushes, works awesome when the outlet gets to them and the flyers throw up odd-man break after odd-man break, but if the outlet gets shut down, again, the flyers are thin and problems abound.

my first inclination is to say laviolette needs to recognize the weaknesses of his system have been scouted and are being exploited, and shift things up. my second inclination is to worry about offensive production if he does. i don't know how effective hartnell and jagr are going to be if they have to start playing 180 feet.

[aziz]

The Flyers are hindered by an injury to their HOF captain defenseman -- which would slow down any team.

Imagine the Bruins without Chara, Red Wings without Lidstrom, etc

....

IMO, the key for the Flyers right now is to get a new #1 defenseman. Timmo is awesome and a legend, but he [just like any defenseman] can't do it on his own

that's it? +1 guy and all problems are solved? +1 guy and all 3 d-pairs will start effectively covering their checks, all 6 guys will start making nothing but clean outlet passes, everyone's point shot will start getting through, the wingers will start backchecking like they mean it, sestito and rinaldo's reputation with the refs will stop handing out PPs, and giroux will stop out-clevering himself? 1 guy?

i'm gonna start calling it the cult of the #1 dman. the wings without lidstrom and the bruins without chara would be vaguely weaker than they are now, slightly more so than if they lost datsyuk or bergeron, and way less so than if they lost howard or thomas. important players, but they are not make-or-break for their teams, and neither is pronger.

at even strength, 5 skaters have defensive assignemnts. if any of those 5 lose their check, the team is in trouble. as you say, timonen can't do it himself. no defenseman can do it himself. no defensive pair can do it themselves. if they could, 5-3 powerplays would be no big deal. if 5 guys are not contributing, goals against will happen. this facination with a single defensive name completely misses the point. chara and lidstrom together as a d-pair would get torn apart if the 3 forwards aren't doing what they need to do.

let me put it this way: a really really really good 4 man penalty kill allows goals against 10% of the time within 2 minutes. do the math, and that ultra-elite 4 man unit gives up a goal every 20 minutes. if 5 guys are not contributing, 3 goals against per 60, at least, are guaranteed (and being based on penalty killers, that includes being allowed to ice the puck). how important, then, is one solitary defenseman?

the flyers are getting picked apart because they don't have a team wide commitment to defensive coverage. arguably, this is by design; the forwards are positioned to take advantage of numbers on the breakout under laviolette's system. regardless, changing a single nameplate on the blueline would have as much impact on the short end of that plan as bob going back to normal looking pads.

Edited February 12, 2012 by aziz

[terp]

Anyone else think it is time for our coach to recognize that his run and gun system is not working and will get us no where in the long run? I like Lavi and dont think we necessarily need a coaching change but maybe it is time he wakes up and recognizes his own short comings in the style of play he is trying to implement with the team that he has. It seems like he is trying to force a square peg in a round hole and the good teams in the league just pick us apart. This is not a Stanley Cup team this year for sure, but maybe if he starts to tweak and make changes now they can get it right by next year with a better and more experienced roster.

The problem isn't the system. Today's loss proves the Flyers had a bad game on the PK. They allowed two even strength goals, which isn't exactly getting shelled. The personnel on defense IS a problem though. Gustafson is ineffective and Bourdon is an absolute turnover machine. He's been so consistently bad in that regard and I've seen so little improvement lately that I wonder whether he'll ever get it together. The Flyers need a better defense, that's it.

[jkearse123]

No team is perfect. OF COURSE all six guys wouldn't be making clean outlet passes, even if you had six Ray Bourque's playing D.

The Bruins would be vaguely weaker without Chara? Are you kidding me haha? The Bruins would be awful without Chara. He plays the most ice time on the team game in and game out. Even at 41 Lidstrom leads his team in ice time. These guys are the key and centerpiece to their team's success, just like Pronger to the Flyers.

While I agree that it is a team effort, on top of just being elite players, Chara, Pronger and Lidstrom bring leadership and control to how the team is run.

But here's the question: If an elite system of powerplay killers gives up 3 goals per sixty, regardless of talent/scheme, why aren't three goals scored every game in hockey by each team everytime? Is that a system issue? Is that a player personnel issue?

Pronger would bring back order to the defense, and at least prevent a bunch of these really crappy goals from happening by helping to clear out the crease in front of Bob. On top of the system gambling the defense has been choking up pucks, leading to awful goals and on top of that poor goaltending by Bryzy and Bob.

Although the more I look at his Hurricane cup team, there seems to be a lack of talent on the defensive side, but had an incredibly strong leadership core, with Recchi, Brinda'mour, Weight, Whitney.

Maybe the Flyers are missing the leadership of CP20 more than anything else.

[OzFlyer]

It is obvious that there is a need to replace a #1 D-Man as It appears that CP is finished.

I guess the biggest question is do you replace your #1 D-Man with one player such as a Weber or two 3-6 D-Men and when is the best time to make a good trade, the deadline or the off-season?

I think (hope?) Homer may snag a 4-5 Vet D-Man at the deadline and work out the rest in the off-season and rotate MAB & Gus in the last slot.

[BearOnIce]

It is obvious that there is a need to replace a #1 D-Man as It appears that CP is finished.

I guess the biggest question is do you replace your #1 D-Man with one player such as a Weber or two 3-6 D-Men and when is the best time to make a good trade, the deadline or the off-season?

I think (hope?) Homer may snag a 4-5 Vet D-Man at the deadline and work out the rest in the off-season and rotate MAB & Gus in the last slot.

You get a 1|2 paring that will be good for 5 years. Kimmo is a 3|4 next year. Colburn gets shopped, no consistency. Move Carle and get some value. Lilja gone. Gus too small. MAB years away. Marzaros a keeper. Might be nice if the Flyers had a farm system.

[BearOnIce]

This is neither Lavy nor Holmgren's fault.

The Flyers are hindered by an injury to their HOF captain defenseman -- which would slow down any team.

Imagine the Bruins without Chara, Red Wings without Lidstrom, etc.

And I know, it's tough to play the injury card but for the Flyers CP20 was the key to a cup.

The offense is one of those where you can plug in a lot of different players that are probably average and make them look good, see Ville Leino and probably Matt Read.

IMO, the key for the Flyers right now is to get a new #1 defenseman. Timmo is awesome and a legend, but he [just like any defenseman] can't do it on his own

The fact of the matter is the coach nor the GM are the problems; the Flyers have an unfortunate history with injuries and this year is no different.

Pronger is not Chara nor Linstrom at this point in their career's, nor in his.

[canoli]

they don't have a team wide commitment to defensive coverage. arguably, this is by design; the forwards are positioned to take advantage of numbers on the breakout under laviolette's system

And that is what has changed significantly in the past weeks - the "team wide commitment to defensive coverage" has eroded to the point that now it's practically non-existent - as a team concept, as a part of our identity. We had it for awhile earlier in the year.

The most telling difference I see is - system-wise - is the gap between fwds and D-men, and the quickness with which the fwds leave the zone (once a Flyer gains control). Earlier in the year our gap control coming up ice was well-regulated - it didn't change much regardless who was on the ice, and it didn't change from game to game.

Now it's like a free-for-all out there. Carle, Kimmo whoever...grabs the puck behind our net ... his partner will wait, provide an outlet - but the fwds are already heading across the N zone. That can't be by design. Early in the season we were coming up ice as a 5-man unit. The fwds out in front, naturally, but within reach to circle back in time, help out against a determined opposition who was clogging up the lanes and making our breakout tough. Lately it's just the opposite - the D is on its own too often.

I'm not saying it explains everything - bad passes - yesterday Mez's outlet pass missed by a few feet and led to Anisimov's goal - will kill a team. But there is plenty of daylight (and choice) between Jacques Lemaire-style hockey and Peter Laviolette's. We better find it soon.

[Ladyneat]

Wasn't I just saying that we need a new system in a goalie thread?

I agree with many points in this discussion we have the forwards to do the system and the D is passible.

I will agree that the leadership absolutely is missing with this club.

With the idea that Pronger is probably done for his career to me the trade deadline need of the Flyers is leadership. If the leader happens to be a stud D Man too well then I will take it.

Loosing to conference opponets leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Even more so because I do not know if you all looked at the March schedule its crowded with in Conference and in division games. If the Flyers can not beat these teams now and in the future there is no playoffs this year for them.

[terp]

I guess the biggest question is do you replace your #1 D-Man with one player such as a Weber or two 3-6 D-Men and when is the best time to make a good trade, the deadline or the off-season?

I would add that the Flyers are trying to figure this out with Pronger's situation still somewhat unclear, evidently no prospects ready to step up (including turnover machine Bourdon and Gustafsson), no cap space and an expiring CBA. Tall order.

My personal sense is that they have no chance of making any meaningful improvement if they have big money tied up in unproductive players. Exhibit one: Bryzgalov. Exhibit two (lately): Danny Briere. I suspect buying out Bryzgalov is too much crow for Snider to swallow in one lifetime so we can only pray that he mans up and does it if the opportunity presents itself with the new CBA. Buying out Briere is almost a no brainer under any circumstances with so little time left on his deal and either Schenn and/or Couturier ready to step up and play a bigger role.

[bryanc]

Anyone else think it is time for our coach to recognize that his run and gun system is not working and will get us no where in the long run? I like Lavi and dont think we necessarily need a coaching change but maybe it is time he wakes up and recognizes his own short comings in the style of play he is trying to implement with the team that he has. It seems like he is trying to force a square peg in a round hole and the good teams in the league just pick us apart. This is not a Stanley Cup team this year for sure, but maybe if he starts to tweak and make changes now they can get it right by next year with a better and more experienced roster.

All good coaches adjust, and I think we are in agreement that Lavi has not adjusted to his team's deficiencies this year. It took a 1-5 record in the shootout for him to make practicing it a priority. Even if they were slightly above average, that's several lost points in the standings. The penalty kill has gone from OK to pitiful -- two games in the last week where they have allowed 3 or more power play goals (at home no less)!

A team can be run-and-gun if they have a decent defense and goalie to back it up. The Flyers clearly do not have a decent defense, and their current crop of D outside of Timonen is overrated. Rumor has it Carle thinks he is good enough to get a deal in the Wisniewski range (he got 6 yrs $33 mil from Columbus). Bourdon is making constant rookie mistakes (look at some of the Rangers tap-in goals).

I agree that it is not necessary to fire the coach, but clearly he needs to adjust his focus.

[doom88]

I think the players are taking games off. At this point, maybe a bad game leading to a dawn bag skate will help their focus...

[idahophilly]

With a shackey defence and swiss cheese goaltending it seems to me it should be a more defensive style that is needed. Our offence will still score but our defence can't afford to be as deep as they go so often...

[jkearse123]

Pronger is not Chara nor Linstrom at this point in their career's, nor in his.

Prior to injury, Pronger had 12 points in 13 games skating 22:29 ATOI.

So while not, I don't know, 1999-2000 nasty, he still remained a superstar nonetheless

[terp]

I guess the biggest question is do you replace your #1 D-Man with one player such as a Weber or two 3-6 D-Men and when is the best time to make a good trade, the deadline or the off-season?

I would add that the Flyers are trying to figure this out with Pronger's situation still somewhat unclear, evidently no prospects ready to step up (including turnover machine Bourdon and Gustafsson), no cap space and an expiring CBA. Tall order.

My personal sense is that they have no chance of making any meaningful improvement if they have big money tied up in unproductive players. Exhibit one: Bryzgalov. Exhibit two (lately): Danny Briere. I suspect buying out Bryzgalov is too much crow for Snider to swallow in one lifetime so we can only pray that he mans up and does it if the opportunity presents itself with the new CBA. Buying out Briere is almost a no brainer under any circumstances with so little time left on his deal and either Schenn and/or Couturier ready to step up and play a bigger role.

[terp]

I think the players are taking games off. At this point, maybe a bad game leading to a dawn bag skate will help their focus...

I respect Timo and when I first read his comments I though maybe I missed something because you usually don't see a team do the kind of brutal hitting yesterday when they aren't into it. I read Meltzer this morning and agreed that maybe they didn't always make good decisions as maybe there were a couple of guys who didn't show up, but most of the team showed up yesterday. Not sure who Timo was refereeing too but his comments seemed a little excessive. Maybe he's just pissed.

[idahophilly]

I respect Timo and when I first read his comments I though maybe I missed something because you usually don't see a team do the kind of brutal hitting yesterday when they aren't into it. I read Meltzer this morning and agreed that maybe they didn't always make good decisions as maybe there were a couple of guys who didn't show up, but most of the team showed up yesterday. Not sure who Timo was refereeing too but his comments seemed a little excessive. Maybe he's just pissed.

The comments were a bit harsh but whether deserved or not, I like Timmo getting fired up. If there is a bit of a leadership vacuum in Prongers absence then it's good to see a relatively quiet Timmo get fired up.

[BearOnIce]

Prior to injury, Pronger had 12 points in 13 games skating 22:29 ATOI.

So while not, I don't know, 1999-2000 nasty, he still remained a superstar nonetheless

I love Pronger, don't get me wrong, been following Nastly Chris since The Note at Keil, but I would rather see him on the bench with Lavi, and trying to live the rest of his life with some semblance of health and normalcy. Add Primeau... Now that boys would be a coaching staff... Just give Prim's and CP20 a pair of sunglasses that wrap around the side of their heads like those 80 year old people you see driving all the time on I-95 and they would be cooking..

[doom88]

I respect Timo and when I first read his comments I though maybe I missed something because you usually don't see a team do the kind of brutal hitting yesterday when they aren't into it. I read Meltzer this morning and agreed that maybe they didn't always make good decisions as maybe there were a couple of guys who didn't show up, but most of the team showed up yesterday. Not sure who Timo was refereeing too but his comments seemed a little excessive. Maybe he's just pissed.

As important of a game as that was, everyone should have played at playoff elimination game level. Except for Hartnell, Simmonds, and to an extent Bob (didn't give anything up easily, made the Rangers WORK for their goals), the Flyers did not as a team nor mostly as individuals bring the intensity needed to match up or beat the Rangers. For example, every Flyers' dump and chase should have resulted in a Ranger sliding down the plexiglass to the ice - legally. I don't recall right now a single time that happened. The Flyers didn't finish checks, didn't finish chances near the net, and didn't finish off Rangers camping out in Bob's crease.

I am accounting for Voracek leaving the game injured (is he okay), and Briere leaving for ten for some garbage call. I do think that losing Voracek in that game really hurt the Flyers chances, but no one really stepped up outside of the power forwards.