Giroux's All Time place with other Flyers Great Forwards?

[flyer4ever]

2 hours ago, pilldoc said:

 

I was wondering that too ..... MacLeish?

Marlies. Toronto Marlboros, major junior franchise, feeder team to the Leafs prior to 1967, now a minor hockey organization in Toronto. Many many alumni in the NHL. Now the AHL feeder for the Leafs.

[mojo1917]

10 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

Marlies. Toronto Marlboros, major junior franchise, feeder team to the Leafs prior to 1967, now a minor hockey organization in Toronto. Many many alumni in the NHL. Now the AHL feeder for the Leafs.

In the AHL the Marlies were very good 5 or so years ago. 

After the Norfolk Admirals ran through the league beating everyone's asses it was the Marlies turn for a few seasons.

Watched them whoop my Hershey Bears a couple of times. The future seemed bright for Toronto, the NHL team had just drafted Matthews and Marner and the AHL team was stacked.

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

After the Norfolk Admirals ran through the league beating everyone's asses

I remember that. I used to live in VA Beach. Had season tickets for the Admirals and was on the ice crew for 3 seasons before moving back to Pa.

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, flyer4ever said:

Marlies. Toronto Marlboros, major junior franchise, feeder team to the Leafs prior to 1967, now a minor hockey organization in Toronto. Many many alumni in the NHL. Now the AHL feeder for the Leafs.

Yup … I know who they are. Since we are talking Flyers players i knew it had to be s typo.

[J0e Th0rnton]

6 hours ago, pilldoc said:

 

People tend to forget what an incredible career Tim Kerr had.  Sadly injuries decimated many of his seasons.

 

 

For a stretch there he had 4 straight 50+ goal seasons.  Injury decimated his 87-88 season. He comes back and flirts with 50 goals again.  This in an era where goal scoring was down as compared to today's game.  

 

For a career he is greater than a point per game.  He has more goals in less games than Giroux.  (370 goals in 655 games as compared to Giroux's  291 goals in  1000 games)

 

I can see your argument with Giroux > LeClair, but I am still taking a healthy Kerr over Giroux every day of the week.

Comparing points and goals per game in the 80's to modern hockey isn't really feasible.

 

A 50 goal scorer today is closer to a 60 goal scorer in the mid 80s. And a 40 goal scorer today is closer to a 50 goal scorer in the 80s.

 

Kerr was a garbage goal scorer. Amazing at it. Money on the pp. Unmoveable in front of the net. But he was exceptionally 1 dimensional and that unmoveability is responsible for a lot of the punishment his back and knees endured. By all accounts, He skated like the ice was molasses even before his injuries and would have a hard time in the modern game due to his plodding footspeed. He's a much better Tomas Holmstrom. 

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

In the AHL the Marlies were very good 5 or so years ago. 

After the Norfolk Admirals ran through the league beating everyone's asses it was the Marlies turn for a few seasons.

Watched them whoop my Hershey Bears a couple of times. The future seemed bright for Toronto, the NHL team had just drafted Matthews and Marner and the AHL team was stacked.

Funny story about the Marlies…I was part of the off-ice officials crew here in San Antonio when we had an AHL team.  My job was the visitors penalty box attendant. The Marlies came to town and several of them took penalties.  There was a winter storm somewhere north of here overnight and it messed up the Marlies travel the next day. I was also traveling the next day and half of the Marlies team ended up on my flight.  A trainer and an assistant coach were sitting in my row on the flight. I mentioned to them that some of the Marlies players came to my penalty box the night before. John-Michael Lyles was sitting in the row in front of us and raised his hand.

Edited March 19, 2022 by AlaskaFlyerFan

[CoachX]

4 hours ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

 

A 50 goal scorer today is closer to a 60 goal scorer in the mid 80s. And a 40 goal scorer today is closer to a 50 goal scorer in the 80s

How did you reach this conclusion?

[ruxpin]

17 minutes ago, CoachX said:

How did you reach this conclusion?

Well,, it's just accurate is all.  Defenses are better and there's less scoring than in the 80s.  Goalies, on average, are better even if only for the fact their pads are twice the size.  It's not exactly a new theory (sorry J0e).  I mean, it's so commonly accepted that it's cliche.

 

It doesn't necessarily mean you can simply prorate any individual player's point total and add 20% or something if they were somehow transported back in time.

 

But a 40-goal scorer today gets the clout the 50-goal scorer used to because there's just less of them. And it's frankly harder.

[J0e Th0rnton]

7 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Well,, it's just accurate is all.  Defenses are better and there's less scoring than in the 80s.  Goalies, on average, are better even if only for the fact their pads are twice the size.  It's not exactly a new theory (sorry J0e).  I mean, it's so commonly accepted that it's cliche.

 

It doesn't necessarily mean you can simply prorate any individual player's point total and add 20% or something if they were somehow transported back in time.

 

But a 40-goal scorer today gets the clout the 50-goal scorer used to because there's just less of them. And it's frankly harder.

Exactly. 

 

I don't mind using adjusted stats as a barometer,  but I don't consider it an absolute lol.

 

But do I think it was easier for a player to score goals when goalie pads only covered 40% of the net as opposed to 90%? Well yeah. 

 

I remember wearing those old leather pads as a kid. Not only were they small,  they were twice as heavy and got heavier as they soaked up water all game lol

 

We also don't see 100 odd man rushes a game like we did when I saw a kid because teams generally play defense now.

 

We aren't going to say 25 year old John Ogrodnick's 55 goal 105 point season in 1985 is nearly equal to McDavid's first 2 art ross seasons with less goals and near the same points.

 

It's just obvious it isn't 

Edited March 20, 2022 by J0e Th0rnton

[yave1964]

On 3/19/2022 at 1:50 PM, pilldoc said:

 

Thank You ......

 

 

I was fortunate .... I remember the mid 80's team clearly as I was in high school at the time.  And yes I cried the day Pelle was killed.  So I get your POV.

 

Not directed at you specifically... but to everyone else...

 

So even though Lindros did not bring a SC to Philly, he was inducted into the NHL Hall of Fame.   Is Giroux worthy of that consideration?  The Flyers Hall of Fame?

 

@yave1964 has a wonderful list of criteria that we use when topics like this come up.

@yave1964 ...can you post that list again for us.

Actually @JR Ewing uses the Ken Keltner list from Bill James baseball abstract. Not trying to steal something from JR that he stole from someone else, lol. It is really truly a good solid way to judge a player in relation to his peers and to a lesser extent where a player ranks all time.  Hope JR forgives me for stealing his stolen thiunder, lol

 

WAS GIROUX EVER CONSIDERED THE BEST PLAYER IN HOCKEY? No. He never won a Hart trophy, he did finish third in voting once (2013-14) and fourth twice Those were the only times he finished in the top ten.

WAS HE THE BEST PLAYER ON HIS OWN TEAM? Almost every year he was a Flyer he was far and away the teams best player, at least after Carter/Richards moved on. A fantastic faceoff man, a damn good two way player who scored at nearly a point a game pace.

 

WAS HE THE BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME AT HIS POSITION? Again, no. Crosby was not only the best center of his generation but Giroux was pushed by others such as Getzlaf, Pavelski, and many more in a crowded field for a decade, Stammer, Bergeron, so many good centers fighting for the number two ranking over the past decade. Giroux never was voted first team all star, even in his best season he was second team, his only such ranking.

 

WAS HE A GOOD ENOUGH PLAYER TO CONTINUE PLAYING PAST HIS PRIME? Of course. He is past his prime now, yet still garnered a first and a solid player in return from Florida. He is no longer a true 1C but would have to rank as one of the games best 2C's now that he is in Florida.

 

DID HE IMPACT A NUMBER ON CUP RACES?  Clearly no, not really. the 2009-10 cup finals that the Flyers lost in he played a very large factor in them making it as far as the didand in truth they likely would have never made it as far as they did without him.  two years later he had a monster postseason through two rounds. After that he developed a rep as a regular season performer.

 

IS HE THE BEST PLAYER NOT IN THE HALL OF FAME? Too early to tell what the voters will think, but his numbers are in the gray area right now. A cup in Florida with him as a key cog would go a long way.

 

ARE MOST COMPARABLE PLAYERS IN THE HALL?  His most comparable player according to hockeyreference is Jason Spezza who I dont really see as a HOFer but who might get some Don Sutton type of votes, his top five most comparable players are Spezza, Rick Nash, Lafontaine, Vanek and Jeff Carter. Most of these were compilers, guys who scored 55-60 points a year forever, with the exception of Lafontaine. He looks like a borderline Hofer based off his comps.

 

IS THERE EVIDENCE THAT HE IS BETTER THAN HIS NUMBERS TRULY SHOW? No. 

 

HOW MANY MVP SEASONS DID HE HAVE? DID HE EVER WIN A HART? He had three absolutely brilliant seasons his best in 2012, he never won a hart but could have in any of those years. He finished third in voting once and fourth twice.

 

HOW MANY ALL STAR TYPE SEASONS DID HE HAVE? He played in seven all star games with the Flyers and I am trying to remember, I believe he sat one out that he was chosen for once as well if memory serves. This is a very solid amount in the age where there are 32 teams and most teams have one or at the very most two reps at the game.

 

IF HE WERE THE BEST PLAYER ON HIS TEAM IS IT LIKELY THE TEAM WOULD WIN THE CUP? The overwhelming evidence is for a decade he WAS the best player on his team and they never won a cup.

 

DID HE CAUSE ANY RULE CHANGES? DID HE IMPACT THE WAY THE GAME IS PLAYED DIFFERENTLY TODAY? The answer to those is clearly no.

 

DID HE UPHOLD THE RULES OF CONDUCT THAT ARE REQUIRED BY HALL VOTERS? Yes.

 

DO HIS RAW NUMBERS SUGGEST A PLAYER WHO IS A HALL OF FAMER? This is a hard one. 1000 games, 900 points, great faceoff man among the best in the dot for a very long time. He never had a ton of things that he led the league in, once in assists, he was top five in scoring three times, His numbers have been dropping at the same rate as most players his age do, heis aging normally, but scoring is way up as the game is evolving creating the illusion that he is close to the same player he once was. If he hangs around for another five years, 1400 games, 1200 points, maybe a cup it will almost certainly net him a place in the hall.

 

 There you are, the Keltner list. Hope it helps move the debate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

So now Giroux is on Barkov's LW. Verhaeghe on the other wing. Nice. Maybe this works well.

[flyercanuck]

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

So now Giroux is on Barkov's LW. Verhaeghe on the other wing. Nice. Maybe this works well.

 

Barkov could break his best goal season.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Barkov could break his best goal season.

 

Dude has always reminded me of Baby Finnish Lindros....something about when he is on a mission gives me goose bumps sometimes. I wonder if we get to see that magic this postseason. I will be watching when i have the chance.

 

This might be the best line Giroux has ever played with. At least debatable.