Vanflyer Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 ......Grossman garners a second AND third rounder (should have been two thirds inho- and one of them conditional on if he re-signs). Seriously- if the rumors are true that Carle wants Wisnewski money (5.5M), then he is going to walk. Might as well trade him for a 1st, 2nd and 3rd. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
touche22 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 ......Grossman garners a second AND third rounder (should have been two thirds inho- and one of them conditional on if he re-signs).Seriously- if the rumors are true that Carle wants Wisnewski money (5.5M), then he is going to walk. Might as well trade him for a 1st, 2nd and 3rd. :-)Simple. Better defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Seriously- if the rumors are true that Carle wants Wisnewski money (5.5M), then he is going to walk. Might as well trade him for a 1st, 2nd and 3rd. :-)There is always the possibility of trading him at the draft. Or just letting him walk and pursue Suter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 @touche22I am not down on Carle as most are. He is playing 1/2 minutes this year without his dynamic partner Pronger. Is he great, no. Is he pretty good- yes. While grossman is not going to replace Pronger, his style of play (stay at home d-man, banger and net clearer) will bode very well for Carles game. The only thing that i dis Carle about is him wanting a huge payday. I don't think he is worth 5.5M. Much of his success has come while be paired with a future HOF'er. He need to bit of humility and learn that his value is somewhere in the Coburn range (4.2-4.5m). The b&tch is that there is probably a team out there willing to give him 5.5M. My hope is that he will take a home team discount at the 4.2 m range for 3 years and then go for another nice pay day. His style of play (hits very little) bodes well for longevity in the NHL. At 30, he could go for that 5+m contract. I am sure the NHLPA does not like my "fan" philosophy, but oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakanekimiwa Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 if a team is willing to pay him $5.5m, then he's suddenly worth $5.5m. unfortunately, it will drive up the price of D men... but, i think it's headed that way anyway. D men are a valuable commodity. especially ones that can eat up minutes in many different situations. i really don't understand the disdain for carle on this board. he's a good defenseman. sure he makes mistakes... they ALL do. did anyone see the turnovers by chara and gill last night? do you hear boston fans thinking chara is overrated? he's a good skater with offensive ability who can play in all situations. that is a valuable D man in this league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 @hf101- I never really get that whole trade for a UFA at the draft (pre free agency period) thing. I get how it works, but I am just not sure there is a tremendous advantage to it. There are but a handful of premiere teams in the league that I can see pull that off successfully (Detroit, NYR, Flyers, Vancouver), but for the most part I think it is a waste. I think Suter will cost too much. Even if Carle walks and we can re-sign Grossman for under 2M, that is a net savings of 1.7M in the cap. The pronger thing really puts a monkey wrench in anything as we can not get that relief until the season starts (as I understand it), however can be 10% over the cap prior to the season (is my thinking right)? So, if the cap is 65M, we can be 6.5M over in the summer, but then need to be cap compliant by the start of the season. So, does that mean if we LTIR pronger day 1 of the season, then we are okay?? I am rambling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakanekimiwa Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 @hf101-I never really get that whole trade for a UFA at the draft (pre free agency period) thing. I get how it works, but I am just not sure there is a tremendous advantage to it. There are but a handful of premiere teams in the league that I can see pull that off successfully (Detroit, NYR, Flyers, Vancouver), but for the most part I think it is a waste.I think Suter will cost too much. Even if Carle walks and we can re-sign Grossman for under 2M, that is a net savings of 1.7M in the cap. The pronger thing really puts a monkey wrench in anything as we can not get that relief until the season starts (as I understand it), however can be 10% over the cap prior to the season (is my thinking right)?So, if the cap is 65M, we can be 6.5M over in the summer, but then need to be cap compliant by the start of the season. So, does that mean if we LTIR pronger day 1 of the season, then we are okay??I am rambling.it seems it's pretty obvious it's a total waste if your team is not one small piece away from completely the puzzle. teams the like the flyers are a bit more than one or two small pieces, so why pay premium prices? having said that... i love the drama around the trade deadline and who are we kidding... who doesn't love a huge trade? i think columbus would be fairly stupid to deal nash before the deadline as there's only so many teams he could go to. when the summer comes, that opens up many more teams. especially teams that might wanna make major moves because of failed PO runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 @BakanekimiwaI get what you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 @BakanekimiwaThe thing with Nash is that he is not just a "missing link" piece for a team to push themselves over the top for a SC run. He is a major permanent piece. So, your logic on waiting until the summer makes sense. I guess it depends on how much those "limited" teams are willing to overpay at the deadline to get him. The other part is that I am sure that Nash has a short list of where he is willing to go, which in a way negates that all out bidding war. Truthfully- if Carter gets a Voracek (7th overall pick) and a high 1st rounder, then nash should garner the same plus maybe another high second rounder. Really at the end of the day, Nash and Carter production are VERY similar (with exception that Nash has been doing it for more seasons). You offset that with a higher salary and that is really all I would give for him. People sometimes get so wrapped around the hype at how player such and such would look in their jersey that they get blinded by the cost. I really like Nash and he would look GREAT with Giroux, but I am not willing to rape my teams current standing or future to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Good pickup for you guys. He brings absolutely nothing to the table offensively but is a solid, Brad Stuart type of shut down defensemen. Your penalty killing problems may not be over but are a long way towards being solved with this guy. In a day and age when special teams win games, Grossman is a great pick up, take that from a Wings fan who has admired his play for years...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 @yave1964- I think many of us Flyers fans have only a very cursory familiarity with him (if any at all). Good to hear from someone who sees him play much more. Do you think he was wort a 2nd AND a 3rd?? If we can resign him for a reasonable price, then I have no problem for the picks. He looks like a decent 4th d-man that is stay and home and can help offset a Carle type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakanekimiwa Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 @BakanekimiwaThe thing with Nash is that he is not just a "missing link" piece for a team to push themselves over the top for a SC run. He is a major permanent piece. So, your logic on waiting until the summer makes sense. I guess it depends on how much those "limited" teams are willing to overpay at the deadline to get him. The other part is that I am sure that Nash has a short list of where he is willing to go, which in a way negates that all out bidding war.Truthfully- if Carter gets a Voracek (7th overall pick) and a high 1st rounder, then nash should garner the same plus maybe another high second rounder. Really at the end of the day, Nash and Carter production are VERY similar (with exception that Nash has been doing it for more seasons). You offset that with a higher salary and that is really all I would give for him. People sometimes get so wrapped around the hype at how player such and such would look in their jersey that they get blinded by the cost.I really like Nash and he would look GREAT with Giroux, but I am not willing to rape my teams current standing or future to do it.i agree with your points about carle.. i don't think anyone's worth $5.5m, but that's just my personal opinion. D men just seem to be like real estate was in nyc(before the bust)... their price just keeps going up and up and up. yah... i'm sure it will come down to what teams he's willing to go to and if what they're willing to give up is enough. i mean.. otherwise, they could just stand pat and they'll have a much larger bidding war. i think his list will open up a bit in the off-season. right now he wants to go to a contender NOW. over the summer, he might widen that for several reasons. but, what will be very interesting is if he does go before the deadline... is it LA or NYC. and if it's neither, do one of those teams go after jeff carter!? dun dun dun... party guy reunion in LA. CBJ could really use a goalie and LA has a good one sitting on the bench. they really need scoring, so a deal would make sense for a number of reasons. maybe there could be a 3-way deal where somehow.. someway... we end up getting Jack Johnson. a little underwhelming this year, but he's still young and could develop. i'm not sure of LA's cap numbers, but they've got to be close(too lazy to capgeek it right now)... so i think they'll need to lose salary if CBJ are looking for prospects and picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 @yave1964-I think many of us Flyers fans have only a very cursory familiarity with him (if any at all). Good to hear from someone who sees him play much more. Do you think he was wort a 2nd AND a 3rd??If we can resign him for a reasonable price, then I have no problem for the picks. He looks like a decent 4th d-man that is stay and home and can help offset a Carle type.If you can resign him he is a good buy for a second and third, market is thin, there are twice as many buers as sellers right now. I was surprised Dallas did this deal and I am sure it took a second and third to get him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I am not really big on Jack Johnson. Though I can't point a reason for it other than that glaring +/-. -88. You combine that with the years that he played for defensive minded Murray and it leaves you scratching your head. I saw him play at the WJHC in both Vancouver and Sweden and I thought he was a complete stud (though Erik Johnson was my favorite of the two Johsons- kind of like a Juniors version of Weber / Suter). At 25, maybe a change of scenery would do his game allot of good. I am just paranoid that he is the ONLY d-man on his team with such and atrocious plus minus. How does that happen?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 @yale1964He is probably going to look for a bit of a pay day (but I can not imagine a huge one). His last contract was as a RFA and nearly doubled his initial entry level contract (975k to 1.625). If we can get him for low mid twos for the minutes he plays, that would be decent value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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