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Jack Johnson for JVR


Guest steve7311
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I think JVR fits in with Giroux and Hartnell. Jager moves onto a line with Briere and Voracek. Schenn likes playing with Simmonds. Talbot brings experience to those two. That leaves Couts and Read (PK partners) and any of the #12 forwards that they interchange.

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both are locked up 6 years after this one at similar cap hits (4.25 for jvr, 4.36 for jmfj). both have similar upsides at their position, both have been inconsistent in their young careers and have yet to realize much of their potential. both play positions(power forward, d) that generally take until mid-late 20s to fully develop. jvr is 2 years younger, so i probably wouldnt make the trade without a 1st coming back with johnson.

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Is JVR for Johnson fair value?

As one of the more ardent JVR supports around here, I would say it's pretty fair. Johnson seems to have been a bit erratic in his career but he's still young. He played for the US in the last Olympics (by comparison Matt Carle didn't make the team). He's also locked up for several more years at a fairly reasonable cap hit of $4.3 million a year.

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When this trade was talked about here last month I was one of the few saying it was a good idea. Most posters who doubted Johnson's defensive abilities cited his poor +/-. Johnson is not going to be the "crease-clearing" D-man everyone seems to want. He'll be a Matt Carle who likes to hit; he won't knock anyone down but he's scrappy and not easy to play against. He doesn't take a lot of penalties - like Coburn only smaller - and he can actually shoot the puck. I would do a Johnson-for-JVR trade in a heartbeat.

Moving JVR is a good idea because we've seen his best and although his best is very good he rarely gives it. Most of the time he's a passenger, to the point where he's been benched 3, 4 (?) times in 2 years - always for the same thing - lack of effort, lack of motivation. Rookie year, 2nd-overall - and he gets benched for lack of effort? And then the same thing his 2nd year. Guys like that I can do without, I don't care how good they are when they decide to show up.

I guess it's possible he suddenly "gets it" and starts playing the way he should every night. If only we knew it was just a matter of time... his best is certainly worth waiting for. But we don't know. All we know is he doesn't seem to put in (let alone enjoy) the hard work involved in winning a shift.

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@canoli

That deal seams like fair value for each team. LA needs scoring, we need to answer some questions on defense(carle , pronger). The cap numbers make it pretty neutral, there are two years difference age wise so Johnson could get it sooner. I like JvR and would rather keep him than just deal him... but this is a deal that needs consideration . Could be a win win. Those deals are rare.

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As one of the more ardent JVR supports around here, I would say it's pretty fair. Johnson seems to have been a bit erratic in his career but he's still young. He played for the US in the last Olympics (by comparison Matt Carle didn't make the team). He's also locked up for several more years at a fairly reasonable cap hit of $4.3 million a year.

Well for comparison Jack's a NHL career total -88 Carle on the other hand is +54 thats a huge swing....just saying. Hope he's not a Mike Green.

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His -88 is very confusing IMO. He is still very young, he will get more mature in his D zone, just takes time. Sometimes his reads on the ice are a bit poor. And sometimes when he goes to throw a big hit/hip check, he misses and it can be an out numbered attack going the other way. But he is very solid in his zone and should not be underestimated.

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Good thread on potential trades for Johnson oh hfboards: http://hfboards.hock...d.php?t=1109321

As expected there is some disagreement over the fine points... general consensus is that he is not very good defensively (Carle is probably better) but is improving. Seems like he wasn't really taught to play d in college and is basically learning on the job now. Very hard worker, dedicated. Hard shot, great skater. He would probably help the Flyers on the PP, but I get the impression he he will be a bit of a defensive liability (not really what the Flyers need at this exact moment in time). Otoh, he's only 25 and will probably improve. I think his contract is 6 more years at a pretty reasonable cap hit (probably less than what Carle will get next year).

Imo, JVR for JJ would be a risky, but interesting, trade.

Edited by JackStraw
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Yes I don't know what to make of that -88.

Does he kill penalties? Is that why it's such a bad number ?

if he's a turn over machine like that # suggests he will get brutalized here and I don't know if I want that vitriol for 5 years.

Killing penalties doesn't get you a minus. Trading an underachieving forward who's going to be overpaid if he doesn't get his act together for a defenceman of the same ilk seems like a lateral move to me. Johnson has been nothing more than a letdown after all the MFing hype about the guy. If I'm trading a 2nd overall, it's for an upgrade.

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Killing penalties doesn't get you a minus. Trading an underachieving forward who's going to be overpaid if he doesn't get his act together for a defenceman of the same ilk seems like a lateral move to me. Johnson has been nothing more than a letdown after all the MFing hype about the guy. If I'm trading a 2nd overall, it's for an upgrade.

Totally agree. JVRs ceiling is higher too. I'm not willing to give up on JVR, and see him potentially replacing Jagr on Giroux's line next season.

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Killing penalties doesn't get you a minus. Trading an underachieving forward who's going to be overpaid if he doesn't get his act together for a defenceman of the same ilk seems like a lateral move to me. Johnson has been nothing more than a letdown after all the MFing hype about the guy. If I'm trading a 2nd overall, it's for an upgrade.

Agree with the lateral move comment. Trading a 2nd overall for a 3rd overall (both under-achievers) seems pretty even to me.

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The difference is Johnson's "underachieving" is about making mistakes and JVR's is about lack of commitment. No one questions Johnson's work ethic, only his decision-making. With JVR pretty much everything is in question. Sure he's young but how many rookies drafted in the 1st round (never mind 2nd overall) have motivation / work ethic (whatever you want to call it) issues? So okay let's give him a pass for his rookie season. Fine. But then the same issue is the story again in his 2nd year.

His 3rd year...well maybe he's been injured from Day One in camp...I don't know.

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both are locked up 6 years after this one at similar cap hits (4.25 for jvr, 4.36 for jmfj). both have similar upsides at their position, both have been inconsistent in their young careers and have yet to realize much of their potential. both play positions(power forward, d) that generally take until mid-late 20s to fully develop. jvr is 2 years younger, so i probably wouldnt make the trade without a 1st coming back with johnson.

huh? JVR was the second pick of the 2007 and Johnson was the third pick of the draft in 2005. How do you figure that the Flyers would get an additional first round pick?

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The difference is Johnson's "underachieving" is about making mistakes and JVR's is about lack of commitment. No one questions Johnson's work ethic, only his decision-making. With JVR pretty much everything is in question. Sure he's young but how many rookies drafted in the 1st round (never mind 2nd overall) have motivation / work ethic (whatever you want to call it) issues? So okay let's give him a pass for his rookie season. Fine. But then the same issue is the story again in his 2nd year.

His 3rd year...well maybe he's been injured from Day One in camp...I don't know.

Got a couple hours, I'll get you a list. Now 2nd overall is a different story. Lame draft though.

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Really? I mean - okay - I'll accept that you and many other posters follow the sport closer than I do - but nobody comes to mind except the real standouts like Kovalev, Fleury with his "issues" etc. Can we say at least that it's unusual for a 1st round player to have work-ethic questions surrounding him in his rookie season?

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