Listless

[touche22]

How many yrs has it been (how many captains has it been) that this flyers team comes out to start games so unprepared and listless? The injuries are a lame excuse for this game against the rags. With all the hype surrounding the winter classic (and against a hated division rival) you would think it would be a no-brainer for this team to come out with some sort of sustained pressure/forecheck.

But, instead its just brutal puck support and zero offensive jam. Weird, considering this is the upper crust of the league in terms of goals scored.

Just facking try hard for gods sake!

mo

[Phlyer1]

One major problem was that they shut down Giroux. He was double teamed many times.Shouldn't that leave somebody else open?

Playing 1/3 down in defense men along with Hartnel and Briere not showing up leaves too much for the kids to make up.for.

Henrik is another reason they could not score.

[Vanflyer]

How many yrs has it been (how many captains has it been) that this flyers team comes out to start games so unprepared and listless? The injuries are a lame excuse for this game against the rags. With all the hype surrounding the winter classic (and against a hated division rival) you would think it would be a no-brainer for this team to come out with some sort of sustained pressure/forecheck.

But, instead its just brutal puck support and zero offensive jam. Weird, considering this is the upper crust of the league in terms of goals scored.

Just facking try hard for gods sake! mo

I liked what Phlyer1 had to say. Truthfully, I thought that the first period was mostly pretty even and had decent energy. It was clear that the Rangers game planned well for Giroux and for whatever reason the Flyers could not adjust. The second period was obviously Rangers period. I also thought the first half of the third was the Rangers. Flyers tried to get stuff going halfway through the third.

The thing is that there was no sustained pressure. No rebonds. Many blocked shots by the Rangers. To me what it really looked like was that the Rangers defended us very well.

The other things to consider (not to make excuses), was that the Flyers played 4 games in 6 nights. The Phlyer1 point, if you take Jagr, Pronger and I dare even say JVR (because it screws up the line mix) out of the line-up, it has a significant impact.

There were some bright spots for me:

1) Bobs- he had no chance on either of those goals. Also, because of his very strong protest, the first goal was reviewed and overturned. Heads up play by him.

2) Voracek- Though he was unable to finish chances, I thought he had one of his best games of the year. He played first line minutes and was very aggressive.

3) Simmonds- I liked his tenacity. He was not a liability. Two bad he doesn't have just a tad more offensive skill.

4) Couterier- Once again a seamless game.

5) Coburn- He played monster minutes (nearly half the game) and had some good rushes. His defense positioning was good and he had that hitting snarl.

Goats:

1) Carle- he reminds me of all three characters in the wizard of oz. Needs courage, a heart and a brain.

2) Briere- Its a game like this that Briere needs to step up and deliver. Also, watch where the **** you are skating. Nodl is not high on my list, but he did not deserve to get injured by his own teammate when HE was making a hockey play.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Vanflyer

[The Quigster]

The Flyers compared to the Rangers are much more talented,but are physically intimidated.While yesterday's fights were entertaining,both Rinaldo and Simmonds took on much bigger players.If either one had been 6'5" these fights would not have happened.There are bigger Phantoms available,if Homer lets them sit on the bench and glare,it would be better than what happening now.

[flyercanuck]

I liked what Phlyer1 had to say. Truthfully, I thought that the first period was mostly pretty even and had decent energy. It was clear that the Rangers game planned well for Giroux and for whatever reason the Flyers could not adjust. The second period was obviously Rangers period. I also thought the first half of the third was the Rangers. Flyers tried to get stuff going halfway through the third.

The thing is that there was no sustained pressure. No rebonds. Many blocked shots by the Rangers. To me what it really looked like was that the Rangers defended us very well.

The other things to consider (not to make excuses), was that the Flyers played 4 games in 6 nights. The Phlyer1 point, if you take Jagr, Pronger and I dare even say JVR (because it screws up the line mix) out of the line-up, it has a significant impact.

There were some bright spots for me:

1) Bobs- he had no chance on either of those goals. Also, because of his very strong protest, the first goal was reviewed and overturned. Heads up play by him.

2) Voracek- Though he was unable to finish chances, I thought he had one of his best games of the year. He played first line minutes and was very aggressive.

3) Simmonds- I liked his tenacity. He was not a liability. Two bad he doesn't have just a tad more offensive skill.

4) Couterier- Once again a seamless game.

5) Coburn- He played monster minutes (nearly half the game) and had some good rushes. His defense positioning was good and he had that hitting snarl.

Goats:

1) Carle- he reminds me of all three characters in the wizard of oz. Needs courage, a heart and a brain.

2) Briere- Its a game like this that Briere needs to step up and deliver. Also, watch where the **** you are skating. Nodl is not high on my list, but he did not deserve to get injured by his own teammate when HE was making a hockey play.

This seems to happen a lot to Laviolette. He doesn't seem capable of changing his game plan in stride. He comes up with good strategies when given the time, but when he has to change on the fly he seems unable to.

Agree with your positives...if Voracek could finish he'd be great, but he can't. And Briere is just an idiot with his stick way too often.

Edited November 27, 2011 by flyercanuck

[brelic]

This seems to happen a lot to Laviolette. He doesn't seem capable of changing his game plan in stride. He comes up with good strategies when given the time, but when he has to change on the fly he seems unable to.

Agree with your positives...if Voracek could finish he'd be great, but he can't. And Briere is just an idiot with his stick way too often.

Voracek is on pace for a career year in points (56) and to pretty much match his career high in goals (on pace for 14, career high is 16). And his junior numbers seem to reflect a pass-first kind of guy.

Either way, I wish he would shoot more too. Nevermind trying to make the perfect play, just throw it at the net.

Edited November 27, 2011 by brelic

[flyercanuck]

Ya, Voracek is definately more of a playmaker going back to his Mooseheads days.. He's highly skilled, big and fast. He just looks like he should have a shot to go with the rest of the package.

[jammer2]

Seems like Lavi consistently out coached by wiley veteran counterparts much, much to often. Is it just me, or does his linematching ability suck donkey balls. Seems like the other coach can find a match-up he likes and Lavi does not respond....basically making the mismatch permanent.

I think Saturday was a bit of being unprepared, a bit of being outcoached, and a bit of a tenacious Ranger team that cared a lot more about winning one on one battles...especially in the last half of the game. Late in the third they seemed desperate to preserve Lundy's shutout....and sadly, the Flyers could not match that desperation. Rangers will be a TOUGH team to knock out of the playoffs. The d has one more year of experience and the young promising forwards are all hard workers. Lundy speaks for himself....put a solid core of defensemen in front of him and good things will happen. That's the big difference between this Ranger team and ones from recent memory....the defense does not allow many second chances and they seem very calm and cool in their own zone.

[DaGreatGazoo]

If either one had been 6'5" these fights would not have happened.There are bigger Phantoms available,if Homer lets them sit on the bench and glare,it would be better than what happening now.

Not trying to be a di*ck here, but isn't this EXACTLY what we pay Shelley $1.1 million a year for?? And he was actually dressed yesterday, as well.

[brelic]

Seems like Lavi consistently out coached by wiley veteran counterparts much, much to often. Is it just me, or does his linematching ability suck donkey balls. Seems like the other coach can find a match-up he likes and Lavi does not respond....basically making the mismatch permanent.

I think Saturday was a bit of being unprepared, a bit of being outcoached, and a bit of a tenacious Ranger team that cared a lot more about winning one on one battles...especially in the last half of the game. Late in the third they seemed desperate to preserve Lundy's shutout....and sadly, the Flyers could not match that desperation. Rangers will be a TOUGH team to knock out of the playoffs. The d has one more year of experience and the young promising forwards are all hard workers. Lundy speaks for himself....put a solid core of defensemen in front of him and good things will happen. That's the big difference between this Ranger team and ones from recent memory....the defense does not allow many second chances and they seem very calm and cool in their own zone.

This has me wondering if we should look to bolster our defense of the future by trading away some of our chips to teams looking to make deep runs.

For example, as much as I love Timonen, he might be the perfect candidate to trade away at the deadline. Realistically, we ain't doing much damage this year. We're too young and too 'new' to make a deep Cup run. And he's only got this year and next on the books @ $5M and $3M, which is not a huge commitment for a contender. This also frees up MUCH needed cap space for moves in the offseason.

He's gonna be 37 in March and is losing a step. But we could still get a nice return for him.

The other option might be to trade Carle, though you'll get much less for a pending UFA.

Trading partners might be Toronto, Washington, Buffalo, TB, Ottawa, Colorado.

[brelic]

Not trying to be a di*ck here, but isn't this EXACTLY what we pay Shelley $1.1 million a year for?? And he was actually dressed yesterday, as well.

Shelley hasn't been relevant in this league for years. He's a dinosaur, an artifact of a bygone era.

Having him in the lineup doesn't scare anybody. Intimidation doesn't come from Shelley sitting on the bench giving his best dumb oaf stare, it comes from everyone finishing their checks and making the opposition think twice about going in the corners. We don't do that nearly enough, and Shelley is too damn slow to actually catch anyone and throw a decent hit.

[DaGreatGazoo]

@brelic

To me it didn't sound like Quigly wasn't talking about hitting people, or being strong in the corners, he was talking about having a 6'5' dude that could fight rather than having Rinaldo or Simmonds take on bigger players. I hate Shelley and his contract as much as anyone..but it makes even less sense to call someone up from the Phantoms-which we have no room to do anyway-to fill a role that an already signed player is paid specifically to do! Shelley isn't there to score goals, he isn't there to forecheck, he isn't there to screen the goalie on the PP and he isn't there to play D..he's there to be a "deterrent"-whatever the hell that means these days.

We can debate whether his role is outdated, but my response was strictly based on calling someone up to do what Shelley is SUPPOSED to be doing...him actually doing it is another matter entirely.

[flyerrod]

Shelley hasn't been relevant in this league for years. He's a dinosaur, an artifact of a bygone era.

Having him in the lineup doesn't scare anybody. Intimidation doesn't come from Shelley sitting on the bench giving his best dumb oaf stare, it comes from everyone finishing their checks and making the opposition think twice about going in the corners. We don't do that nearly enough, and Shelley is too damn slow to actually catch anyone and throw a decent hit.

Substitute the word legal for decent and you hit the nail on the head. When Shelley is on the ice, whoever is stuck with him is thrown completely off their game because they have to go completely defensive and wait for when, not if Shelley is out of position. I really think that his heart is in the game but that his body just can't keep up anymore.

[doom88]

Was the Briere thing on Nodl, Yashin-level?

Man, of all games to miss...argh!

[brelic]

@brelic

To me it didn't sound like Quigly wasn't talking about hitting people, or being strong in the corners, he was talking about having a 6'5' dude that could fight rather than having Rinaldo or Simmonds take on bigger players. I hate Shelley and his contract as much as anyone..but it makes even less sense to call someone up from the Phantoms-which we have no room to do anyway-to fill a role that an already signed player is paid specifically to do! Shelley isn't there to score goals, he isn't there to forecheck, he isn't there to screen the goalie on the PP and he isn't there to play D..he's there to be a "deterrent"-whatever the hell that means these days.

We can debate whether his role is outdated, but my response was strictly based on calling someone up to do what Shelley is SUPPOSED to be doing...him actually doing it is another matter entirely.

Gotcha. The truth is, though, he's not a deterrent. Do you remember the last good Shelley fight that he won? The last time he inspired our team with his physical play? The last time he intimidated opponents because of his hitting?

I sure as hell don't.

[brelic]

Substitute the word legal for decent and you hit the nail on the head. When Shelley is on the ice, whoever is stuck with him is thrown completely off their game because they have to go completely defensive and wait for when, not if Shelley is out of position. I really think that his heart is in the game but that his body just can't keep up anymore.

Yeah, I agree. I think Carcillo was the right type of player, kinda like Downie, and now Rinaldo. These players all play on the edge, and are very often over it. So for as much good as they can bring their team with their physical play and energy, they take dumb penalties and have the referees watching their every move because of reputation. If they tone down their play, they become much less effective. It's a fine line.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Gotcha. The truth is, though, he's not a deterrent. Do you remember the last good Shelley fight that he won? The last time he inspired our team with his physical play? The last time he intimidated opponents because of his hitting?

I sure as hell don't.

The last good game I remember Shelley playing was when he scored 2 AGAINST us, as a Ranger!

You are 100% correct...I don't remember either. Just seems like if they aren't going to send him down, and he has to play due to cap/call-up reasons; yesterday was a game that begged him to earn his paycheck. Then again, with Lavy on the warpath about penalties, it is very likely he's told Shelley NOT to initiate anything. Which comes back to..what the hell is he doing there in the 1st place then???? :unsure:

[The Quigster]

Shelley has to play to be considered good or bad for anything. Some body on the Flyer's has to move the "Occupy members"out from in front of the goalie,the present "D" men are scared,intimidated,etc.and apparently can't do what they are paid to do. Shelley is a solid heavy weight in the NHL,in order to be effective,he has to be on the ice,Lavi makes all the decisions. Bobbo looked pretty good!

[brelic]

The last good game I remember Shelley playing was when he scored 2 AGAINST us, as a Ranger!

You are 100% correct...I don't remember either. Just seems like if they aren't going to send him down, and he has to play due to cap/call-up reasons; yesterday was a game that begged him to earn his paycheck. Then again, with Lavy on the warpath about penalties, it is very likely he's told Shelley NOT to initiate anything. Which comes back to..what the hell is he doing there in the 1st place then???? :unsure:

You know what? I think Homer was really influenced by that one excellent game he had as a Ranger against us. If I recall, it was late in the season (like, last 5-6 games of the year), and he was a UFA.

One year contract, I could see. But 3 years at $1.1M just made no sense. I hated it at the time, and nothing has changed. Apparently, he's a good locker room guy though :blink:

Edited November 27, 2011 by brelic

[Vanflyer]

Agree with your positives...if Voracek could finish he'd be great

I think he is playing great. He has never been a finisher (ironic that CBJ always needed play maker). JV will do fine here. Jagr is going to teach him well and he already loves the organization. Look for big second line wing from him.

[Vanflyer]

Seems like Lavi consistently out coached by wiley veteran counterparts much, much to often. Is it just me, or does his linematching ability suck donkey balls. Seems like the other coach can find a match-up he likes and Lavi does not respond....basically making the mismatch permanent. I think Saturday was a bit of being unprepared, a bit of being outcoached, and a bit of a tenacious Ranger team that cared a lot more about winning one on one battles...especially in the last half of the game. Late in the third they seemed desperate to preserve Lundy's shutout....and sadly, the Flyers could not match that desperation. Rangers will be a TOUGH team to knock out of the playoffs. The d has one more year of experience and the young promising forwards are all hard workers. Lundy speaks for himself....put a solid core of defensemen in front of him and good things will happen. That's the big difference between this Ranger team and ones from recent memory....the defense does not allow many second chances and they seem very calm and cool in their own zone.

Yo Jammer!

So, if the Flyers win the game- would you have posted the same message? How could he be outcoached this game other than the Rangers having a shutdown plan for Girou. You put Jagr, Pronger AND JVR in the lineup and what is the gameplan then? The Flyers win that game with those three players.

Also 4 games in 6 days to 2 games in 5 days.

Not apologizing for the loss, but don't put it on the coaches head- especially regarding lines and line changes.

Peace brother!

VF

[touche22]

(like, last 5-6 games of the year),

i know its available thru a search, but i thought it was the last 2 games of the yr that yr.

[touche22]

The Flyers win that game with those three players.

Not sure i agree. They might win, but every team has its share of injuries. A consistent compete level would be nice. Our breakouts thru the neutral zone are atrocious at the moment. Bad dump ins and zero support. These are coachable things but im not sure its a coaching problem.

Statistically, this team is doing well (overall standings) so maybe its moot to complain. I just can't stand watching games being dictated to us. Lose when you have left it all on the ice and thats understandable, but lose with excuses and its lame.

[Vanflyer]

Not sure i agree. They might win, but every team has its share of injuries. A consistent compete level would be nice. Our breakouts thru the neutral zone are atrocious at the moment. Bad dump ins and zero support. These are coachable things but im not sure its a coaching problem.

Well stated. I would agree with everything you said. However- you put Pronger back in there on the back line and Jagr on the top line and JVR on whatever line, everything is different. I saw what you seen too in regards to break out and transition. I wont blaim Boudon or Marshall as they did their best.

I guess in the end, I am not going to be chicken little like the OP- particularly in hanging the coach (again)..

P.S. Hitchcock has those Blues singing great notes, eh!

Edited November 28, 2011 by Vanflyer

[Damaged Goods]

I disagree entirely with the OP's sentiment. The Flyers came into the game with a ton of emotion and energy. However, they were unable to execute offensively, nor did they adjust to what the Rangers were doing strategically. That led to a very long, frustrating afternoon for the top forwards.