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League Disipline:Inconsistent


Guest The Quigster
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I was just taking a look at the NHL site and checked out suspensions:The Wild's Warren Peters gets a for a one game suspension for a vicious cross check! I watched the tape and I'm not quite sure where the cross check is. Comparing this with Staal's cross check of Braydon Coburn,it looking Shanahan has developed a serious percepual disorder. If the NHL wants make it in the "Big Leagues" they had better start selecting a more professional,objective staff. Their method using "Old Hockey Guys" for administrative management is antiquated,stupid,and anti-NHL. Ed Snider and Comcast is trying to put the NHL on the map,they bought a major TV network,hold the NHL's hand,trying to guide them away from the past and into a bright future.The way NHL handles disicipline is so inconsistent,it resembles a third world a soccer league. On another note how did everybody like three games on NBC sunday?If you have to have day games,thats the way to do it.

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The leagues discipline is not inconsistent

Its the same way its always been

Terrible, amateur and biased

It is consistent just like diarrhea

Roll the clock back to 2005-06 and remember how anybody who farted near another player got a penalty especially melon head Cindy(after some real refs let Hatcher rearrange Cindys chiclets for cross checking him in the neck)

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Its a complete joke. Its absolutely biased. There are darlings and goats in the NHL and they are treated as such. The darlings are NY, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Chicago, and Boston. These teams get every break they need. Calls and discipline go their way. They are favored by the NHL. Its ridiculous.

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I totally agree. And one thing that I cant stand, is fines. Staal was only fined $2,500 (which is the maximum possible amount the league can fine) for the cross check on Couburn during saturdays game. That hit was a reaaallllyy bad hit, and it's only 2,500 ? Thats nothing compared to how much these guys make!

I also can't stand how inconsistant the reffs are with calling penalties during games. Its a joke. They call the stupidest little things that didn't even happen, but when there's a big obvious penalty, they dont call it.

They need to get their act together & start being more consistant.

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I have absolutely nothing to add to this thread because you guys said it all. I couldn't agree more with all of what's already been posted.

I also agree with everything except that the Wings are treated as darlings. In this area, the only player that does anything like this is Kronwall, and his hits are almost all clean ones. His hit on Kessel earlier this year might be your best argument, as he BARELY left his feet AS he hit Kessel (certainly NOTHING REMOTELY like Ovechkin did in his charge). ALMOST a textbook hit. If that's not what you are talking about, PhillyGrump, can you elaborate on why Detroit is in that list? No question that they are an important team in the league, but as far as them being treated as darlings, I challenge that statement. Please provide evidence. Thanks.

I absolutely agree on the Staal hit. That definitely deserved suspension. Yes, you could see his remorse immediately following the hit, but he still hit him, and supposedly intent is not supposed to matter as far as whether there will be suspension or not, only how MUCH discipline.

I will say this: I do like the video explanations that Shanahan shows. I think the league has manned up more than any professional league in at least showing an attempt to be accountable to the players and fans in explaining their discipline. Shanahan and the NHL should at least be credited for that step. But it also more readily reveals biases. The Staal hit stands out.

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Kronwall is my evidence. You are going to dispute it. I get it. He's your guy, but the fact that he doesn't get whistled and suspended and a guy like Rinaldo does is ridiculous. If Kronwall wore a different jersey he'd be penalized more.

Everyone calls Detroit Hockeytown. If you don't think the NHL views them as a darling then you are mistaken my friend.

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I do like the video explanations that Shanahan shows. I think the league has manned up more than any professional league in at least showing an attempt to be accountable to the players and fans in explaining their discipline.

Personally I think it's a good idea in theory but a huge fail in practice. The Shanahan in the videos may very well be an android who abducted the Shanahan who used to play for the Wings. In any case his little checklist is b.s. Who cares if you have a checklist if you only apply it in an offhand way (and that's being extremely nice about it)?

I agree with Quigly, the NHL needs to get its "supplemental discipline" house in order, otherwise it remains a standing joke.

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@BobDailey @canoli @Phillygrump @SpikeDDS @OH1FlyersFan @emwags618

Moved this to General NHL topics to get a league wide look at it.

------------------------------------------

Besides penalties for and against, there has to be more stats that can be looked at for this.

Like - how many power plays are given to each team with less than 5 minutes to go when losing by 1. (Penguins?)

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I also agree with everything except that the Wings are treated as darlings. In this area, the only player that does anything like this is Kronwall, and his hits are almost all clean ones. His hit on Kessel earlier this year might be your best argument, as he BARELY left his feet AS he hit Kessel (certainly NOTHING REMOTELY like Ovechkin did in his charge). ALMOST a textbook hit. If that's not what you are talking about, PhillyGrump, can you elaborate on why Detroit is in that list? No question that they are an important team in the league, but as far as them being treated as darlings, I challenge that statement. Please provide evidence. Thanks.

I absolutely agree on the Staal hit. That definitely deserved suspension. Yes, you could see his remorse immediately following the hit, but he still hit him, and supposedly intent is not supposed to matter as far as whether there will be suspension or not, only how MUCH discipline.

I will say this: I do like the video explanations that Shanahan shows. I think the league has manned up more than any professional league in at least showing an attempt to be accountable to the players and fans in explaining their discipline. Shanahan and the NHL should at least be credited for that step. But it also more readily reveals biases. The Staal hit stands out.

Kronwall's hit on Briere included distance to the hit, leaving his feet, launching, and an assault on Briere's head.

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I thought the Peters "cross check" was terrible. He hit Backes in the side of the head with his stick, no question about it. I thought he deserved at least 3 games for it, and was shocked when he only recieved the one. Peters is not a repeat offender, and Backes didn't miss any time, but it was a blatant shot at the head, which is what the league is supposedly cracking down on.

I agree with the idea that the supplemental discipline has been inconsistent. But I believe that the system for establishing supplemental discipline defines it to be inconsistent. There seems to be no finite criteria for any of it, and I feel that is the main problem. That is the reason I have put little of this blame on Brendan Shanahan. Shanahan is making judgement calls. He looks at whatever his internal criteria is and hands out punishments. Perhaps when he has done this job longer, and has established more suspensions to use as precidents, he will become more consistent. That obviously remains to be seen. My main problem with it all is just inconsistency.

I would personally endorse a zero tolerance policy on all of this. Firm guidelines for boarding hits, hits from behind, targeting the head, cross checks, etc. I know this opens up an entire new can of worms, but at least there would be some kind of established criteria in place to go off of for what is happening to players.

As it currently stands, I agree alot with Greg Wyshinski and Jeff Marek (they do a podcast called Marek vs. Wyshinski and brought up this idea on their show), that Shanahan should be making more videos showcasing clean hits. Show us what you want. Show us what is acceptable, and explain it in the videos. I think this goes a long way in helping fans and players see what is being deemed "acceptable" and "clean."

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Gotta say, Shanny is doing a fine job. Some should be longer, some shorter, some even get missed, but the word is out, DONT TARGET THE HEAD. Dont leave your feet, and oh yeah, DONT TARGET THE HEAD. It is better than it ever has been before as far as player safety, good, clean hard hits are still fine, head shots are being watched as they should be. I say keep on keeping on, its working.

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Kronwall's hit on Briere included distance to the hit, leaving his feet, launching, and an assault on Briere's head.

You're kidding me, right?

How does one target the head with a HIP/BACK check other than clipping someone ala the Savard hit? And I think you'd have to agree that this hit was NOT a clip. Direct body hit.

And as far as Kronwall leaving his feet, they only leave the ice AFTER the contact actually begins. (Watched it frame-by-frame to verify. Feel free to do so, but lose the homer glasses first, OK?) That is NOT a charge. Contrast that hit with the aforementioned Ovechkin hit. Now THAT'S a charge! Ovie's skates leave the ice and he JUMPS into the air before any contact is made to hit the player high. Kronwall did nothing of the sort. His skates only leave the ice AS A RESULT of the hit, not prior to it.

You MIGHT have a case for distance to the hit. Might! What's the legal limit there, BTW?

And for crying out loud, Briere's has the puck and his head his down! What? Now you can't hit the guy anywhere from the front or it's targeting the head? Why not just keep your head down whenever you have it then to prevent getting hit, right?

AFAIC, the Kessel hit is MUCH closer to a charge than the Briere hit was. Kronner did ACTUALLY (like 1 or 2 frames before) lift his skates from the ice JUUUST before initiating contact with Kessel, but it was so close it's hard to call it a charge. In fact the rules allow for you to leave your feet just as you actually hit the player or after contact is made (as a result of), but not before with a launch. You've got a better argument about "launching" with the Kessel hit than with the Briere hit.

Ya gotta do better than THAT!

BTW, neither of these hits is even in the LEAGUE with Staal's hit on Saturday. Staal's hit DEFINES the boarding rule, and I honestly have no idea why he's not in street clothes for a few games. It's wrong.

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As it currently stands, I agree alot with Greg Wyshinski and Jeff Marek (they do a podcast called Marek vs. Wyshinski and brought up this idea on their show), that Shanahan should be making more videos showcasing clean hits. Show us what you want. Show us what is acceptable, and explain it in the videos. I think this goes a long way in helping fans and players see what is being deemed "acceptable" and "clean."

I agree with this. At the beginning of the season, there were one or two vids that actually showed this. There was the video that the league sent to the teams before the season, and then IIRC there was one more where the player was NOT fined/suspended that they explained why he wasn't disciplined further. There should be more of this.

Actually, I think I'd like them to use Kronner's hits to comment on whether these hits are legal. I would argue that the Briere hit and the Kessel hit are legal, but the Kessel hit COULD be defined as a charge, depending on whether the spirit or letter of the law is what matters. You will also note that in BOTH of these cases, the opposing "victims" were not injured.

The day we stop letting hockey players hit opposing players who have the puck and have their heads down is the day we should just install flags on their belts and play flag hockey. Shuffleboard anyone?

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Kronwall is my evidence. You are going to dispute it. I get it. He's your guy, but the fact that he doesn't get whistled and suspended and a guy like Rinaldo does is ridiculous. If Kronwall wore a different jersey he'd be penalized more.

Everyone calls Detroit Hockeytown. If you don't think the NHL views them as a darling then you are mistaken my friend.

I get it. You're charging me with being a homer. Fair enough.

Let's analyze the hits that are the closest in circumstance. The Rinaldo hit on Ericksson is the closest hit to one of Kronwall's, and since it is against a Red Wing, probably even more apropos. I'll use the hit on Briere to contrast. Fair enough?

Watch the 2 videos. Rinaldo's skates LEAVE THE ICE BEFORE he hits Ericksson. He hits him primarily WITH HIS SHOULDER, targeting the head. He actually has to JUMP 5 inches higher to have his shoulders even with Ericksson's shoulders, and he actually hit's him in the head--which is higher yet. Shanahan notes that E is standing almost straight up at the time of the hit. Shanahan actually notes that a legal body hit could have been inflicted here without penalty if those things weren't done. Oh, and BTW E had already gotten rid of the puck. Now, I'm not arguing that he couldn't have been hit legally that close to after having passed it, but in contrast to Briere, if one was in a MORE LEGAL position to be hit, Briere vs. Ericksson, Briere wins that comparison.

Contrast that with Kronner's hit on Briere. His skates DO NOT leave the ice until after the hit commences. They only leave the ice once the hit has commenced as a result of the hit. Also, he hit Briere with his BACK and his HIP, not his shoulder or his elbows. His back is to the player. How do you target a head with your back to the player? You can't without leaving your feet first, which he didn't do. Also, if you compare how much distance from the hit there was, there was more distance with Rinaldo's run up than with Kronwall's. Oh, and don't forget that Briere actually possessed the puck as Kronner hit him.

You ALSO have to take into consideration that Rinaldo had JUST been disciplined two times just before this hit for other infractions, no doubt part of the reason he was given 3 games for this hit. Without those other two infractions, he probably would have only received 1 game or so.

Kronner has no history of league discipline, and since his hit did not actually break the rules like Rinaldo's (I would argue at all, but you can make your case), and since Rinaldo's hit would have probably given him 1 game if it was a standalone infraction (which it was not), what are you saying his punishment should have been as compared with Rinaldo's?

Where was this unfair? How can you equate the two? What do you honestly charge Kronwall with? Hard checking? Checking a guy when his head is down? And how can you possibly think that Kronwall should be disciplined for his hit as much as Rinaldo?

As far as I'm concerned, the Briere hit is textbook how you hit a guy when he puts his head down. I welcome your critique of it as compared with Rinaldo's to show how his hit is as deserving as Rinaldo's. Remember: you mentioned Rinaldo's hit; not me. I think it's too easy a contrast, but like I said, let's hear your take.

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@BobDailey @canoli @Phillygrump @SpikeDDS @OH1FlyersFan @emwags618

Moved this to General NHL topics to get a league wide look at it.

------------------------------------------

Besides penalties for and against, there has to be more stats that can be looked at for this.

Like - how many power plays are given to each team with less than 5 minutes to go when losing by 1. (Penguins?)

A worthy topic, even though it ISN'T really about the criticism of the Dept of Player Safety.

Better question: How many QUESTIONABLE PPs are given to each team with less than 5 minutes to go when losing by 1. I have no idea how you could compile such stats, but it would be interesting to see. I think you may have more of an argument about Detroit having some advantage with this line of argument than with the Dept of Player Safety angle. But as a Detroit fan, I can tell you that it goes both ways for Detroit, and it seemed like it happened a LOT more last year than this year against the Wings. Then again, we aren't behind by 1 very often with 5 to go in the 3rd this year.

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Kronwall is my evidence.

Watch from 50-60 seconds.

Kronwall comes up with his body but his skates do not come off the ice at the same time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm_sxJ4Z--Y

No watch this one. Rinaldo clearly leaves his feet to target his head. See 25 second mark. His feet are clearly a foot off the ice and his arms are targeting his head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xtHdbV1UU8

Here's a few boarding that should carry a minimum 5 games suspension. These players know these hits aren't allowed but keep doing them.

See the 1:11 mark

5-6 mark - The two handed push from 4-5 feet away from the boards is a killer.

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A worthy topic, even though it ISN'T really about the criticism of the Dept of Player Safety.

Better question: How many QUESTIONABLE PPs are given to each team with less than 5 minutes to go when losing by 1. I have no idea how you could compile such stats, but it would be interesting to see.

I have a way to do it. I'll work on it today.

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Watch from 50-60 seconds.

Kronwall comes up with his body but his skates do not come off the ice at the same time.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mm_sxJ4Z--Y

No watch this one. Rinaldo clearly leaves his feet to target his head. See 25 second mark. His feet are clearly a foot off the ice and his arms are targeting his head.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2xtHdbV1UU8

Here's a few boarding that should carry a minimum 5 games suspension. These players know these hits aren't allowed but keep doing them.

See the 1:11 mark

5-6 mark - The two handed push from 4-5 feet away from the boards is a killer.

Thanks for the validation, Digity. Good to see someone else who can look at hits with more objective eyes even if it is their own player's hit.

We agree on all these. The Staal hit only resulting in a fine in unacceptable. Staal should have been in street clothes for that. Textbook boarding.

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