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A Speculative 2022 Flyers Off Season Rebuild


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27 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

rebuild.jpg.2ec888cd031231b16f0ca73f33ea63a4.jpg

 

As per @OccamsRazor's request.
Have at it boys!

 

Well thanks TFG and a nice pic to spruce it up that what it was missing was a woman's touch.

 

Nice.

 

And the question...

 

I'm stuck at work today and well bored as hell so got me to thinking IF you were to be aggressive who would you target for the aggressive rebuild?

 

My guy is Leon Draisaitl so I lead off with he is 26 would that be young enough to start the rebuild around or not and if so what would he cost?

 

And this isn't just for you mojo it is for anyone who is willing to make a suggestion here.

 

Which I know most here they'd rather sit back and wait for someone else to do so so they can jump in and tells us all why it will never work the Flyers are forever doomed and all the normal blah blah blah Flyer negative hate reply (you know who you are if the shoe fits...)

 

So I am asking anyone please don't do that if that is how you feel just don't reply.

 

Sure you are welcome to suggest something/someone else but if it is all Flyer hate vitriol please pass on this question.

 

Look forward to have something to discuss....maybe.

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2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

My guy is Leon Draisaitl so I lead off with he is 26 would that be young enough to start the rebuild around or not and if so what would he cost?

Are you talking about anyone in the league?  Or just those that might be available?  Because, Holland isn't giving up Draisaitl.  He's a 3rd overall pick, having his 3rd 100+ point seasaon, he's a playoff performer, and a HUGE part of why they're 5th in the West.  His game is firing on all cylinders right now.  And I think he can be even better in the next 2 or 3 years than he has been.  As tough as that might be, I think his game has it in it.  But, if this is a hypothetical about selecting anyone that could be "bought", I would think it's going to cost at LEAST 2 1sts and 2 2nds.  But, even that might be wishful thinking.  It might cost 3 1sts and a 2nd or two.  Maybe 3 1sts, a 2nd and a top prospect.

 

As far as who I would select, it's a very hard question.  "Aggressive Retools" don't really work too well in today's NHL because of the cost, and damage it will do to the ability to have a roster around those players that are considered "aggressive retools".  For me, today's NHL is MUCH more about having awesome scouting, general manager and assistant gms that can build with the draft and the youth.  As well as them having a solid ability to evaluate young talent that's already in the NHL and might not be as costly as a Draisaitl type player would.  But, also a front office that isn't afraid of playing that youth.  Instead of treating them like Hextall did.  And not punishing them like Hakstol did either.

 

Yes, having players like Draisaitl, or a roster like Edmonton, as one example, can bring success.  But, it's very difficult in a cap world, as Edmonton's cap status proves.  Personally, I'm one who believes more in young money these days that can fit well in a cap world, while still leaving room for an addition or two here or there.

 

It's a very tough question...

Edited by FireDillabaugh
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1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 I would guess something like...2022 1st, 2023 1st, Konecny, Provorov, Farabee

 

So if this was the case would you pull the trigger??

 

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

It would be great to get him, but it would completely gut the team and make it difficult to build around him.

 

I agree. And it would be. But how else would you get that type of star then??

 

As we know they never suck enough to get in the top 3 and if/when they do well see JVR and NP.

 

So how else could they obtain a stud needed around the rebuild...obviously you don't trust Chuck to find one with the draft picks that he has??

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36 minutes ago, FireDillabaugh said:

Are you talking about anyone in the league? 

 

Yes sure i just started with Leon because he is one of my favorites. But yes it can be anyone you think the Flyers should be able to build around who be their star of the future to make other want to come to Philly to be a part of winning it all. 

 

And yes all of Leon's stats i am aware of exactly why i was targeting him which won't come cheaply. 

 

40 minutes ago, FireDillabaugh said:

But, if this is a hypothetical

 

Absolutely something new to discuss and distract us from the 2021/22 Dumpster fire Flyers.

 

43 minutes ago, FireDillabaugh said:

I would think it's going to cost at LEAST 2 1sts and 2 2nds.  But, even that might be wishful thinking.  It might cost 3 1sts and a 2nd or two.  Maybe 3 1sts, a 2nd and a top prospect.

 

So would you do it then?? And if no then how do would they get this star surely you don't trust Chuck to find one??? And even when they get down low enough they end of with JVR or broke down Nolan Patrick...otherwise unlucky.

 

48 minutes ago, FireDillabaugh said:

Yes, having players like Draisaitl, or a roster like Edmonton, as one example, can bring success.  But, it's very difficult in a cap world, as Edmonton's cap status proves.  Personally, I'm one who believes more in young money these days that can fit well in a cap world, while still leaving room for an addition or two here or there.

 

It's a very tough question...

 

Oh i totally agree all great points. But the only other way takes a long time....but it might be the only way that is the right way...

 

...and one more thing if it was a lesser type talent player than Draisaitl then do you have somone in mind for example??

 

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6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

So would you do it then?? And if no then how do would they get this star surely you don't trust Chuck to find one??? And even when they get down low enough they end of with JVR or broke down Nolan Patrick...otherwise unlucky.

No.  I wouldn't do it at that cost.

 

And the only way this organization finds stars like him in the draft is by firing Dave Scott, Holmgren, Fletcher, his assistants and these scouts that have failed them by suggesting these picks like JVR and Nolan and replacing them with a more competent "Chairman" that knows his hockey, Senior Advisor(s) that realize what it takes to win in this current NHL, a real GM and assistants, and what you hope are scouts that are much better at evaluating talent(draft talent and current NHL talent).  Yes, not easy.  But, it's simply not happening with the current egos in this front office, the failed scouting of their history, and someone that has no idea what he's doing like Dave Scott.  THAT is where this "aggressive retool" has to happen for this organization.  Signing a big UFA or trading the future away for a star just isn't going to do it.

 

18 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

...and one more thing if it was a lesser type talent player than Draisaitl then do you have somone in mind for example??

I would look at players like a Kyle Connor, a Sebastian Aho, or maybe an Alex DeBrincat(if the team had proper coaching to teach him how to be a better two-way/defensive forward than he currently is).  Not really stars.  But, still young talent that might not cost what a Draisaitl would cost.  But, again, if that cost is still selling the future and damaging the ability to build around it(as true NHL GMs aren't just going to give away talent), I wouldn't do it.  It's just very difficult to do in today's NHL.  And in order to do it takes a lot of competence in the front office and scouting.

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33 minutes ago, FireDillabaugh said:

And the only way this organization finds stars like him in the draft is by firing Dave Scott, Holmgren, Fletcher, his assistants and these scouts that have failed them by suggesting these picks like JVR and Nolan and replacing them with a more competent "Chairman" that knows his hockey, Senior Advisor(s) that realize what it takes to win in this current NHL, a real GM and assistants, and what you hope are scouts that are much better at evaluating talent(draft talent and current NHL talent). 

 

I think you are right it is the only thing they haven't tried yet. At this point it couldn't hurt anything.

 

35 minutes ago, FireDillabaugh said:

I would look at players like a Kyle Connor, a Sebastian Aho, or maybe an Alex DeBrincat(if the team had proper coaching to teach him how to be a better two-way/defensive forward than he currently is). 

 

I like all 3 of these guys. Young enough and more likely not as costly. Now would this be with the envision of making them Captain or let someone who sticks around get it for example if they keep Coots just let him be the Captain.

 

And i will throw this in as an alternate choice would you try and pry Matt Beniers from Seattle for say Coots and Konecny (the players are negotiable) to start fresh with an unproven star??

 

Or say Giroux was to land in Ottawa Coots and...for Tim Stutzle type to build around?

 

Any ways just so more ideas i think my brain is on fire been up since 5 am and have another 12 to pull tomorrow might be off to bed.

 

Later i will just watch the rest the Denver vs New Jersey Devils circa 1996 Minnestoa St game.

 

Marty Brodeur went to back to college this late in life??

 

:beer: 

 

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39 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

I think you are right it is the only thing they haven't tried yet. At this point it couldn't hurt anything.

It has to happen for there to be any chance of a competitive team.  Especially Holmgren.  His ego MUST go.  And the frauds he's brought in need to follow.

 

39 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

I like all 3 of these guys. Young enough and more likely not as costly. Now would this be with the envision of making them Captain or let someone who sticks around get it for example if they keep Coots just let him be the Captain.

Maybe Aho could be an option for a Captain.  Not sure about a guy like Connor or DeBrincat.  That would have to be determined after they spent a bit of time here in practices and how they are in the locker room and off the ice.

 

39 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

And i will throw this in as an alternate choice would you try and pry Matt Beniers from Seattle for say Coots and Konecny (the players are negotiable) to start fresh with an unproven star??

 

Or say Giroux was to land in Ottawa Coots and...for Tim Stutzle type to build around?

If all Matty Beniers would cost would be Coots and TK, I would definitely consider that.  But, I don't think there's any way that Seattle does that.  I like Coots.  He's ok.  And I get how fans love him and all.  However, he's a bit too lazy for me at times.  And his finishing ability leaves a lot to be desired.  His feet often stop moving the moment the puck is on his stick.  He goes for coasting loops far too often.  He's often seen coasting to the bench for changes.  And, he seems to get so many scoring chances that he's just not able to finish, for whatever reason.  For as good as he is on draws, you would think his hands would be better on finishing attempts.  He's a good player.  A bit overhyped, imo.  But a good player.  However, I truly believe he could be a MUCH better player if he was willing to work a lot harder for 60+ minutes.  And TK definitely needs to be a harder working player.  And, he shoots the puck too well to be passing up quality shooting opportunities like he does far too often.  He needs to work much harder on the PP and he's VERY lazy on the backcheck.

 

Stutzle is a bit of a different story.  He's a HUGE defensive liability.  Watching him play makes you want to stick a few firecrackers in his pants.  Maybe it's because he's on a team like Ottawa, and that's why he has the attitude he has.  But, he just looks uninterested way too often.  There's a lot that needs to be taught there.

 

With the way this organization is, there isn't much that I wouldn't be willing to part with for the right return.  But, again, if the "aggressive retool" doesn't happen to the front office, scouting and coaches, then I'm not sure it matters.

 

39 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Any ways just so more ideas i think my brain is on fire been up since 5 am and have another 12 to pull tomorrow might be off to bed.

Ok.  Have a good one.  Good luck tomorrow!! 

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1 hour ago, FireDillabaugh said:

It has to happen for there to be any chance of a competitive team.  Especially Holmgren.  His ego MUST go.  And the frauds he's brought in need to follow.

I’ve been saying that for years…..

 

Can’t agree with you more.

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8 hours ago, FireDillabaugh said:

I like Coots.  He's ok.  And I get how fans love him and all.  However, he's a bit too lazy for me at times.  And his finishing ability leaves a lot to be desired.  His feet often stop moving the moment the puck is on his stick.  He goes for coasting loops far too often.  He's often seen coasting to the bench for changes.  And, he seems to get so many scoring chances that he's just not able to finish, for whatever reason.  For as good as he is on draws, you would think his hands would be better on finishing attempts.  He's a good player.  A bit overhyped, imo.  But a good player.  However, I truly believe he could be a MUCH better player if he was willing to work a lot harder for 60+ minutes. 

 

Yeah good accessment on Coots he does from Voracek syndrome a lot.

 

But honestly a lot of his issues to is on management too...he is miscast as a top line center because well they had not other option especially when Giroux was better on the wing.

 

So he should be a #2 center to put him in a spot where he can excel most.

 

Not sure he'll get the shot since who else now would plug that hole?

 

Hayes at best should be 3rd line center.

 

8 hours ago, FireDillabaugh said:

And TK definitely needs to be a harder working player.  And, he shoots the puck too well to be passing up quality shooting opportunities like he does far too often. 

 

I honestly can see them moving him this offseason if not at the draft then later.

 

Fortunately RW is deep within the club and with very little cap to make moves elsewhere someone has to go. He has struggled scoring since Oskar came out the lineup with cancer and hasn't looked the same since.

 

Not sure why that is except I do not see the same effort we use to see from him. A lot I think is he suffers missing his BFF who is in Vegas now. 

 

So out West to Vegas or LA I can see happening.

 

They would still have:

 

Tippett

Atkinson 

Allison

MacEwen

Lycksell who I'd coming over I read to finish the season barring visa problems.

 

So they will be fine I think.

 

8 hours ago, FireDillabaugh said:

Stutzle is a bit of a different story.  He's a HUGE defensive liability.  Watching him play makes you want to stick a few firecrackers in his pants.  Maybe it's because he's on a team like Ottawa, and that's why he has the attitude he has.  But, he just looks uninterested way too often.  There's a lot that needs to be taught there.

 

I agree but he just turned 20 in January so he has a long way to go as far as maturing and adjusting to the NHL. But man the upside is there when he turns on the Jets.

 

But if there is any signs he is going to turn into a German JVR yet I haven't seen.

 

But if there is doubts there then pass.

 

8 hours ago, FireDillabaugh said:

But, again, if the "aggressive retool" doesn't happen to the front office, scouting and coaches, then I'm not sure it matters

 

Yes and THIS has to start with Scott before $$$$ reason he is pushing to just get back in the playoff race and they are fine agenda.

 

And he more than likely with advisement from Homer thinks they are only a piece or two away.

 

So they will never tear it all down like they should.

 

Hopeless in Philly...

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10 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

So if this was the case would you pull the trigger??

 

 I would not.

 

 

10 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

As we know they never suck enough to get in the top 3 and if/when they do well see JVR and NP.

 

So how else could they obtain a stud needed around the rebuild...obviously you don't trust Chuck to find one with the draft picks that he has??

 

Of course I hope they can get someone really good with this draft, I just don't see any franchise players here (which is what we need) If it was up to me I'd be selling off guys like Atkinson (would have done it at last deadline) to the highest bidder. He's a good player, one of the very few Fletcher deals that actually worked out...but he's not getting any younger and isn't going to help us win anything at this stage. 

 

 I just look at what it took to bring Lindros in, it was hard to build around him after sending all those assets out. The Recchi trade helped immensely, but I only see Fletcher on the losing side of that type of deal. Lindros was so good he got us to the finals, but our depth (lack of) and goaltending killed us. 

 

 Picture Edmonton without McDavid...that'd be your Flyers with Draisaitl after sending all that away to get him. 

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11 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Of course I hope

 

 

Seems all we have left.

 

11 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

If it was up to me I'd be selling off guys like Atkinson

 

Well they need cap space so you never know he is still a good candidate who could be moved.

 

I think it comes down to him or TK with all the RWs they have.

 

The return maybe higher with TK though.

 

13 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

I just look at what it took to bring Lindros in, it was hard to build around him after sending all those assets out.

 

Well alot of that too was exacerbated by poor drafting too from 1993 to 1998 Gagne they basically drafted Niinimaa, Prospal, Boucher and Zubrus.

 

That is down right pathetic and they had 3 1st round picks in that span but when you draft 5 players in 6 drafts that are really rosterable players and only one being a true stud in Gagne that is going to set you back big time.

 

When you do make an aggressive move well you have to hit on your draft picks.

 

And combine it with no so great to mediocre free agents yeah well you will struggle.

 

Which leads me to the Oilers and poor drafting did them in too a perfect example of hitting rock bottom getting top draft picks which maybe should have been traded for multiple picks.

 

But drafting is huge on laying your foundation but is even bigger for grooming guys to take the spots of guys leaving for more money in a salary cap world.

 

And you miss on that too and well here we are watching the dumpster 🔥 burn...

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This might sound a little too corporate, but I think a mission statement about what Flyers hockey means should be created. Goals with defined and measurable outcomes should be created so the statement becomes reality.

So, what ever the statement is; "we will play a swarming, physical style based on speed of foot and thought..." ...

There seems to be a lot of corporate people as opposed to hockey people in the decision making seats of the Flyers, perhaps getting the organization paddling in the same direction, while seemingly stupid and unnecessary is warranted. 

The team hasn't had an identity since the Lindros era IMO. If it takes some douchey corporate assholery to create one, well use that "power" for good.

 

Soon this mess of a season will be over a new coach will be hired.

That, I think could have a huge impact on the rebuild. 

 

I like the idea of one of these successful NCAA or CHL *writ large...all of them coaches being brought in with a new and autonomous staff, no hold-overs with NHL experience. New blood fresh thinking.

 

I think I target two players for putting asses in seats and building around. 

Cale Makar and Sasha Barkov.

I'm taking this exercise as who would I want, not who can I get. 

There would need to be several pu-pu platter style trades where 3 or 4 guys and a pick net one of these players. In the best case scenario.  I would try to move the BU reunion crew to anywhere. So Hayes out, Atkinson gone. I would retain the max allowable from JvR's salary and dump him somewhere. If there are zero takers I swallow hard and buy him out. Without ever seeing how it would work- I would dump Ellis.

I would absolutely trade package of Konecny, Ristolainen/Ellis, Lindblom/Laughton and a first for Barkov.  I would trade Provorov/Ellis Couturier and Zamula for Makar. 

I would try to keep York, Sanhiem and Hart

I would try to keep Cates, Frost and Tippet.

 

I would draft smart guys with speed. Those would be the two criteria that would determine bpa during any draft.

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

The team hasn't had an identity since the Lindros era IMO. If it takes some douchey corporate assholery to create one, well use that "power" for good.

 

 

 

How about this for an identity...

 

No quarter asked. None given.

 

Something my Grandfather a hard ass Marine use to say to me as a kid.

 

I like to live by that.

 

Flyers should try that for starters...

 

:beer:

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5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

There would need to be several pu-pu platter style trades where 3 or 4 guys and a pick net one of these players. In the best case scenario.  I would try to move the BU reunion crew to anywhere. So Hayes out, Atkinson gone. I would retain the max allowable from JvR's salary and dump him somewhere. If there are zero takers I swallow hard and buy him out. Without ever seeing how it would work- I would dump Ellis.

 

 Where do I sign?

 

5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I would absolutely trade package of Konecny, Ristolainen/Ellis, Lindblom/Laughton and a first for Barkov.

 

 Me too. Why is Florida doing this?

 

5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

 

  I would trade Provorov/Ellis Couturier and Zamula for Makar. 

 

 This seems better but I don't think the Avs are parting with Cale.

 

5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I would try to keep York, Sanhiem and Hart

I would try to keep Cates, Frost and Tippet.

 

 Agree. 

 

5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

I would draft smart guys with speed. Those would be the two criteria that would determine bpa during any draft.

 

 

 I think this was sort of Hextalls plan, but I think it's most smart GMs plan and the best of those are long gone when you pick middle of the pack. 

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11 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Cale Makar and Sasha Barkov.

 

I liked these two.

 

Barkov has always reminded me of Baby Lindros.

 

And Markar they could have actually drafted with some good knowledge from the scouts and GM pulling the trigger and no I do not want to get into the all the consensus #1 and #2 overall talk again but bottom line they dropped the ball.

 

But these two will be very costly.

 

I even suggested trading for Barkov before he got into his last of of his previous contract.

 

But I digress and what now would it take to pry those away.

 

Both teams are tight against the cap with a few guys to sign.

 

Maybe a Cup win for one of those teams would possibly loosen their gripe on one.

 

But I doubt it. But I am willing to make an offer all they can say is no.

 

Moving assets would make it harder to build around them for sure

 

I hope the plan would be to draft better so as to still be a great team unlike what happened when they traded for Lindros I mentioned with my post to @flyercanuck in 6 drafts if you only come away will one star and 4 other role players at best doesn't matter what you do you won't win.

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5 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 Me too. Why is Florida doing this?

Sasha has had it with Florida; one too many "Florida man" interactions at the Piggly Wiggly. He's tired of the strip malls, 8 lanes of traffic filled with Florida drivers, alligators and the cortaditos, while delicious, bind him up too much.

He's won his cup, he's out, and nothing Zito can do will change that. 

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20 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Without ever seeing how it would work- I would dump Ellis.

 

And depending on him you could always LTIR him when the season starts to get his cap relief and still sign someone to fill the gaps.

 

Hell they aren't saying anything about him which is the strangest thing I have ever seen so yeah hard to call it with him.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

And depending on him you could always LTIR him when the season starts to get his cap relief and still sign someone to fill the gaps.

 

Hell they aren't saying anything about him which is the strangest thing I have ever seen so yeah hard to call it with him.

 

 

 

 We already went through the Foppa foot drama...this sure sounds like more of the same. Obviously it's a wait and see, and Fletcher has proven with Yandle and Ristolainen that he refuses to admit mistakes. So my guess is...Return of the son of Foppa, the sequel.

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5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Sasha has had it with Florida; one too many "Florida man" interactions at the Piggly Wiggly. He's tired of the strip malls, 8 lanes of traffic filled with Florida drivers, alligators and the cortaditos, while delicious, bind him up too much.

He's won his cup, he's out, and nothing Zito can do will change that. 

 

I like this idea. I feel with them tight against the cap a fresh off a Cup win and Giroux telling him how nice it was in Philly he will be persuaded to come to Philly.

 

So my offer would Sami Tuomaala, Emil Andrea, Wisdom and a 2023 1st for Barkov.

 

And we can always renegotiate this all if it isn't enough...

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I've been following this post today and don't qwuite understand some of it.

From a fan perspective it's fun to imagine getting Drisiatel, Makar, Barkov or even Kyle Connor.

But that is contingent on other GM's being as stupid as your GM.

Those type players are not going to be available, and if you did get one the resources to get them would leave your system bare.

the best bet would be trade all of your assets over the age of 28 for as much as possible and draft well.

This team does need to decide what kind of team it wants to be, and draft accordingly. 

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2 minutes ago, Tomdog said:

I've been following this post today and don't qwuite understand some of it.

From a fan perspective it's fun to imagine getting Drisiatel, Makar, Barkov or even Kyle Connor.

But that is contingent on other GM's being as stupid as your GM.

Those type players are not going to be available, and if you did get one the resources to get them would leave your system bare.

the best bet would be trade all of your assets over the age of 28 for as much as possible and draft well.

This team does need to decide what kind of team it wants to be, and draft accordingly. 

I am approaching this thread as money is no object and you can do what you want.

Don't need a pile of wet blankets telling me why it won't work...

I'm squarely based in reality and can read, you know? 

 

So think of my posts as Xbox escapism- does that help?

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9 minutes ago, Tomdog said:

But that is contingent on other GM's being as stupid as your GM.

 

Because this is a cap world and there are teams to take advantage of in the situation because well they are chasing Cups too.

 

And with the right strategy you could probably spring one of those guys.

 

Are you a current GM or have prior managerial experience in the NHL?

 

I am going to guess no so yeah don't come around just saying what can't happen.

 

12 minutes ago, Tomdog said:

Those type players are not going to be available

 

Yeah tell that to Gretzky, Lindros, Brett Burns, Brett Hull, Chris Pronger and Erik Karlsson just to name a few.

 

So yeah every player has a price tag and everyone is available for the right price you just have to find the right guy and decide if it is the right move for your club.

 

Otherwise you will only be left with finding  a steal in the draft and/or the top pick in the draft.

 

But that isn't full proof ask Buffalo and Edmonton.

 

So yeah you have to pay to play.

 

And you also don't have to participate here we know the negative side of it all.

 

No Captain Obvious needed here.

 

Now come back with a suggestion if you or well you don't have to come back at all to the thread.

 

As mojo said no wet blankets needed here today sir.

 

:5a6425fa25331_VikingSkoool:

 

 

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