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A Speculative 2022 Flyers Off Season Rebuild


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15 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Allison, Cates, Laczynski, Ratcliffe, Hogberg,  Sandstrom need new deals.

Jackson Cates needs a new offer sheet.  Noah is still signed through next season on his ELC.

 

 

Edited by FireDillabaugh
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I'm not a lawyer or capologist , so I can only trust the writer knows better , his point (sorry I can't remember his name) is that the Flyers rebuild will not be easy. They do not have any elite level prospects, are not well stocked in extra draft picks, do not have ample cap space due to 6 albatross contracts. They can't take on salary from cap strapped teams, which usually means a pick or prospect coming back (see Ghost), they can't  even take on young talent from cash strapped teams. They have to hit home runs with their draft picks, which they don't have all of. Not sure Yzrman or Zito could fix this. What a s*&t show.

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Butting in a bit as someone outside the fanbase:

IMO (aside from the obvious change in upper management), one of the main things this franchise needs to establish before anything can remotely start to look better, is identity.
What kind of team do they want to be?

Fast, high scoring, perhaps eschewing some defense in order to outscore their problems?
Defensive minded, preferring to shut down the opposition, take advantage of opportunities given to them, and win many nights 2-1, 3-2 games?
Heavy, nasty, with a bit of offense, with a bit of defense, but ALWAYS, always bruising?
Antagonistic? They have guys up n down the lineup with some skill, but also with a big propensity to draw lots of penalties by getting under everyone's skin (maybe some heaviness in there too, as it can go hand in hand), and then become a special teams powerhouse, while perhaps being average 5 on 5?

I mean, those are just samples, and teams can mix n match styles to create all new ones.

Thing is, once a team identity is established then management (yes, I know, THOSE guys again!), can go about getting players that fit the mold that they want, BUT, still feeling free to tweak and change things as they go if some things are proving to not work as well.

Yes, I hear the fanbase when they say, "we need high end talent", and that is certainly true.
But in lieu of that, in the short term, there is something to be said about getting an identity, get guys that play to that identity, and begin to gain a pride over the brand of hockey they impose on the other team.

I dare say that a team full of average players, who give everything, are on the same page, and understand what the team is about, can very well beat a team full of superstars who seem more interested in looking good and padding stats (though certainly not all star players are that way).

It means management (those infernal guys!) needs to stop seeing how well certain other players played elsewhere, then haphazardly throw them together on the Flyers and expect them to perform like they did before.
Sure, sometimes that may work, but more often than not, it won't.

Just as an example, and not necessarily picking on a player, but...
Ristolainen, Ellis, Hayes, Atkinson.

Look at that motley group. Most of those guys have good things they can offer, while also having some big deficiencies in their game.
Do they compliment what was already on the team? Do they even compliment each other?
They all came from different teams with different styles....and now, because big money was thrown at them on the Flyers, management thinks they will do just as well here?

Better to get lesser knowns who all row in the same direction, with some star or star-like players sprinkled in, WITH a definite team identity, and they can and would, skate circles around 'big name' guys who were just slapped together.

I've been made quite aware that upper management is a real problem for the franchise.
And truly, until THAT is fixed, anything else is just, well...perhaps only a dream.

But a team identity and focus is definitely needed first and foremost.
Kinda like before you build a house, you want to know what kind of foundation you want to build, then get the appropriate materials to do that job.
Same with building a championship caliber franchise.

Means purging, LOTS of purging needs to happen.

Past winners have proven that.
My 39 cents, Flyer fans.

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1 hour ago, flyer4ever said:

I'm not a lawyer or capologist , so I can only trust the writer knows better , his point (sorry I can't remember his name) is that the Flyers rebuild will not be easy. They do not have any elite level prospects, are not well stocked in extra draft picks, do not have ample cap space due to 6 albatross contracts. They can't take on salary from cap strapped teams, which usually means a pick or prospect coming back (see Ghost), they can't  even take on young talent from cash strapped teams. They have to hit home runs with their draft picks, which they don't have all of. Not sure Yzrman or Zito could fix this. What a s*&t show.

 

Well in 11 years of drafting, Fletcher has hit ONE homerun....so we got that going for us!

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33 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

Just as an example, and not necessarily picking on a player, but...
Ristolainen, Ellis, Hayes, Atkinson.

 

 

 Two of those 4 guys weren't even very good on the other teams. The other 2 are on the wrong side of 30. 3 of them we're stuck with....forever. 

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26 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Two of those 4 guys weren't even very good on the other teams. The other 2 are on the wrong side of 30. 3 of them we're stuck with....forever. 

 

I am guessing you mean Hayes and Risto?

Yes, you are right....even though Risto does offer the kind of freight train hitting every team likes to have.
And Hayes, well, BEFORE he was a Flyer, showed lots of upside, but HE would actually be the type of player I was alluding to earlier that was just slapped into the Flyers and hope it works.

Don't get me wrong, FC, I am NOT disputing you on those players.
It is very difficult to find real silver linings with some of those guys because for every thing they may do right, they do about two or three wrong.

Ristolainen is a prime example of a guy you get, to hopefully up his game and bring his very physical style, playing for what was perceived at the time, a "better team", and if he doesn't, you pretty him up a bit, and ship him off somewhere....NOT give him an extension.

Taken as a group, those four just feel like misfit pieces randomly thrown together in a Flyers sweater and expected to perform at a championship level....which of course, we all know, isn't the case.

Going back a bit further, and you can see re-adding a guy like JVR was a similar mistake.
Seems the Flyers gave him that big contract based on his monster year in Toronto, without really paying a mind to his overall track record.

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1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

Butting in a bit as someone outside the fanbase:

IMO (aside from the obvious change in upper management), one of the main things this franchise needs to establish before anything can remotely start to look better, is identity.
What kind of team do they want to be?

Fast, high scoring, perhaps eschewing some defense in order to outscore their problems?
Defensive minded, preferring to shut down the opposition, take advantage of opportunities given to them, and win many nights 2-1, 3-2 games?
Heavy, nasty, with a bit of offense, with a bit of defense, but ALWAYS, always bruising?
Antagonistic? They have guys up n down the lineup with some skill, but also with a big propensity to draw lots of penalties by getting under everyone's skin (maybe some heaviness in there too, as it can go hand in hand), and then become a special teams powerhouse, while perhaps being average 5 on 5?

I mean, those are just samples, and teams can mix n match styles to create all new ones.

Thing is, once a team identity is established then management (yes, I know, THOSE guys again!), can go about getting players that fit the mold that they want, BUT, still feeling free to tweak and change things as they go if some things are proving to not work as well.

Yes, I hear the fanbase when they say, "we need high end talent", and that is certainly true.
But in lieu of that, in the short term, there is something to be said about getting an identity, get guys that play to that identity, and begin to gain a pride over the brand of hockey they impose on the other team.

I dare say that a team full of average players, who give everything, are on the same page, and understand what the team is about, can very well beat a team full of superstars who seem more interested in looking good and padding stats (though certainly not all star players are that way).

It means management (those infernal guys!) needs to stop seeing how well certain other players played elsewhere, then haphazardly throw them together on the Flyers and expect them to perform like they did before.
Sure, sometimes that may work, but more often than not, it won't.

Just as an example, and not necessarily picking on a player, but...
Ristolainen, Ellis, Hayes, Atkinson.

Look at that motley group. Most of those guys have good things they can offer, while also having some big deficiencies in their game.
Do they compliment what was already on the team? Do they even compliment each other?
They all came from different teams with different styles....and now, because big money was thrown at them on the Flyers, management thinks they will do just as well here?

Better to get lesser knowns who all row in the same direction, with some star or star-like players sprinkled in, WITH a definite team identity, and they can and would, skate circles around 'big name' guys who were just slapped together.

I've been made quite aware that upper management is a real problem for the franchise.
And truly, until THAT is fixed, anything else is just, well...perhaps only a dream.

But a team identity and focus is definitely needed first and foremost.
Kinda like before you build a house, you want to know what kind of foundation you want to build, then get the appropriate materials to do that job.
Same with building a championship caliber franchise.

Means purging, LOTS of purging needs to happen.

Past winners have proven that.
My 39 cents, Flyer fans.

The Flyers have an identity. Old, slow, injured bad contract graveyard.

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Just now, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

Probably NOT on the short list of desirable identities, I am sure. :shifty:

Not desirable for a normal fan base and hockey ops, yet this has been the MO of the Flyers for over a decade. Seriously, its true. 

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15 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

They do not have any elite level prospects, are not well stocked in extra draft picks, do not have ample cap space due to 6 albatross contracts. They can't take on salary from cap strapped teams, which usually means a pick or prospect coming back (see Ghost), they can't  even take on young talent from cash strapped teams.

 

Well sure if you wanna nitpick...I mean besides this they're in good shape right?

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13 hours ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

And Hayes, well, BEFORE he was a Flyer, showed lots of upside, but HE would actually be the type of player I was alluding to earlier that was just slapped into the Flyers and hope it works.

I’m sorry, but I’ve gotta respond here.  I saw lots of Rangers games and Hayes was completely overrated when he was there.  It’s no surprise that Rangers management chose to get rid of him instead of make him part of their rebuild, like Kreider.  Also no surprise that the Jets chose not to keep him (or even play him in the playoffs at points) after spending draft picks on him.  There was no upside to signing him, other teams had already gotten his best years, which were average at best.  The Flyers got exactly what you would expect from signing Kevin Hayes.

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Pro scouting might not be very good, or they might be really good and just don't have a voice in the room, or most likely this was just another Paul (I'm an idiot)Holmgren order from on high. And here we are today at the bottom with little prospect of getting better, due to insane contracts for lousy players.

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I saw a good bit of Hayes with the Rangers too. I'd say @TropicalFruitGirl26's point about Hayes' upside is correct but it only applies to his rookie year. He did have a good first year skating with St. Louis and Hagelin. But after that he settled into a ~45pt guy. His game was well-known and (it seems) baked in before he got to Philly.

 

1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said:

The Flyers got exactly what you would expect from signing Kevin Hayes.

 

No doubt. Hayes is what he is. Fletcher wildly, irresponsibly overpaid him. Kevin "50-Pts-Or-Bust" Hayes for 4 more seasons and they'll all likely be "Bust" as he's only got one >50pt season in 10 tries.

 

//my usual rag on KH

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

There was no upside to signing him,

well 45 points is 45 points.

But yours is spot on.

He was not going to improve, he was going to be what he was, a decent 45/50 guy that can play on the PK and 2nd PP.

If they'd paid him 5.5 x5 it looks a lot better, heck even Andrew MacDonald money would be a slight overpay. But easier to move.

It is easy to say everyone sucks and are stupid too.

But Hayes is pretty okay at hockey. His big minus is he's not a fast skater, but he can kill penalties, and he can make smart plays; And he's certainly not going to be the best player on any team.

I think everyone has checked out this season, so judging his bad play in these last two weeks is as much about the environment as it is the player .

 

If Hayes is the 3rd option at a better aav he wouldn't be the whipping boy (forwards) for everyone. 

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle though- so there's that, at this point he's not a guy I would want to build around but he's not "the worst" either. 

His contract is preventative for actually being able to build a team.

Needless to say the situation with the team is far from ideal.

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Posted (edited)

Here’s the deal. First - Flyers fans need to get their heads out of their asses with this decades long loyalty to losing. Every time we go on a 4 game winning streak or we make an offseason move that tickles the grundle of these thirsty little puppies in orange and black, the fans scream “Lord Stanley here we come!” Stop that. Hold this team accountable for its habitual losing, it’s chronic mediocrity, it’s awfully dependable way of bumbling things. Until you produce a team that competes for a championship, you get no love.

 

Second, Claude Giroux is a prime example of how we fall in love with guys who’ve gotten us no where and recycle them through now decades of laundry that comes out soiled. He’s doing great in Florida with a mighty cast of skilled players we couldn’t provide him and that’s where he needs to stay. No Hextall, no Tocchet, no Brind’amour. Okay maybe we can keep the door open for #17. But anyway, we need new blood that soaks it’s employer in playoff success. No retreads. Whatever it cost. GM and coach. Don’t care we’re paying the old coach millions to be unemployed- this team owes us for years of futility and that’s how you pay it back. Through good old green colored “I’m sorrys.” Next year- rid yourself of any guy over 28 that you can and play the **** outta the young guys.

 

Evaluate who stays and who goes, make deadline deals and summer cuts so 2 years from now the new winning leadership has a stable of players to build with. Free Agents - bring Johnny G home? Absolutely. Nab any other guy of superior talent and prime age, YES! Don’t be dumb, talent wins. Goaltending - keep looking for the guy who wins you games. He’s out there. Carter Hart is fine til that guy comes along. If Hart turns into that guy- praise the Lord! Gritty- he’s now less of a fan distraction and more of an incredible mascot! Let’s Flyucking Goooooo!!!! 

Edited by pilldoc
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24 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

John Gaudreau turns 29 on August 13. 

Yup. That’s prime age. SUPERIOR TALENT. Make sure Van Riemsdyk is spelled correctly on this year’s birthday jersey! 

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27 minutes ago, Teddal5678 said:

Yup. That’s prime age. SUPERIOR TALENT. Make sure Van Riemsdyk is spelled correctly on this year’s birthday jersey! 

I'm trying to figure out your plan. You want to gas everyone over 28 and sign a 29? If you give JG max term, which is what he will want, he will be 37 and undersized at the end of the deal. I will take a hard pass, unless he'll sign a 2 year contract. I do like the gas the over 28s though. I might even dial it back to 26.

But we dream with Holmtard and Chuckles still around.

 

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On 4/29/2022 at 1:04 PM, GratefulFlyers said:

I saw a good bit of Hayes with the Rangers too. I'd say @TropicalFruitGirl26's point about Hayes' upside is correct but it only applies to his rookie year. He did have a good first year skating with St. Louis and Hagelin. But after that he settled into a ~45pt guy. His game was well-known and (it seems) baked in before he got to Philly.

 

 

No doubt. Hayes is what he is. Fletcher wildly, irresponsibly overpaid him. Kevin "50-Pts-Or-Bust" Hayes for 4 more seasons and they'll all likely be "Bust" as he's only got one >50pt season in 10 tries.

 

//my usual rag on KH

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hayes, to my knowledge, now has a MODIFIED no trade clause. So, I would do all I can, to convince him to move on. The Flyers needed a second line center at the time of the contract, and vastly overpaid for Hayes mostly based on his relationship with Vigneault and being a favorite of his. Now, with AV gone, his value is diminished.. and it is time for him to go based on age and production. They need to get faster and more physical...and he serves neither of those purposes.

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37 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Hayes, to my knowledge, now has a MODIFIED no trade clause. So, I would do all I can, to convince him to move on. The Flyers needed a second line center at the time of the contract, and vastly overpaid for Hayes mostly based on his relationship with Vigneault and being a favorite of his. Now, with AV gone, his value is diminished.. and it is time for him to go based on age and production. They need to get faster and more physical...and he serves neither of those purposes.

 

What are you going to add to Hayes and that contract to get rid of him? Nobodies taking that on without some icing.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

What are you going to add to Hayes and that contract to get rid of him? Nobodies taking that on without some icing.

Here ya go! I apologize for it not being icing. :bigteeth: 

Duncan Hines Creamy Frosting Home-Style Dark Chocolate Fudge - 16 Oz

 

Edited by FD19372
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

What are you going to add to Hayes and that contract to get rid of him? Nobodies taking that on without some icing.

 

Exactly maybe after this season (2022-23) offer to pick up half his salary even to more him.

 

This year he is helping for Bedard then he can fcuk off...

 

:BrownBag:

Edited by OccamsRazor
#boubonup
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