A Speculative 2022 Flyers Off Season Rebuild

[GratefulFlyers]

On 5/2/2022 at 3:50 PM, flyer4ever said:

Flyerland is already full of bad contracts that will inhibit the team from being a legitimate contender for 4 or 5 years.

Well it’s not quite that bad I count just 2 that extend beyond next season. The problem is, in addition to the blindingly stupid contracts, those 2 were (and still are) way overrated by Fletcher and Co. They’ve been handed roster spots, roles and responsibilities that neither one can handle effectively, which is a nice way of saying they suck at their jobs, the ones Fletcher promised them.

 

Before the Flyers can become Cup contenders they’ll have to rid themselves of Hayes and Ristolainen. I see no alternative. They’re core players who are simply not good enough. 
 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by GratefulFlyers

[flyercanuck]

On 5/1/2022 at 11:25 PM, Teddal5678 said:

There isn’t one vet on this team worth keeping. Anyone ON THIS TEAM who we can shed over 28, do it. Yes, singing Gaudreau is worth it if it happened. If it didn’t, fine. But are you anticipating he’ll shrink by the ripe age of 37? He’ll be undersized? Listen to what you’re saying lol 

 

First of all, welcome to the board.

 

Second...what good would it do to sign Gaudreau? I'm not saying he isn't a good player...I'm saying this team is a dumpster fire and bringing in a good, surely expensive older player, long term I'd also assume, who's likely going to start his fade the moment he signs, will just be more of the exact same thing that hasn't got us anywhere.

[SCFlyguy]

Sign them all.  Flyers are now the retirement home for UFAs who want to get paid, relax, and know they'll have a job for life in the organization.

 

Kevin Hayes for GM 2030!

[Teddal5678]

On 5/5/2022 at 6:57 PM, flyercanuck said:

 

First of all, welcome to the board.

 

Second...what good would it do to sign Gaudreau? I'm not saying he isn't a good player...I'm saying this team is a dumpster fire and bringing in a good, surely expensive older player, long term I'd also assume, who's likely going to start his fade the moment he signs, will just be more of the exact same thing that hasn't got us anywhere.

Maybe Gaudreau tips the age scale a bit and if this team is looking at a 5 year rebuild then sure, no point in signing him or anyone else for that matter. All other points stand AND I’m not locking myself into a 5 year rebuild. It doesn’t have to play out that way with management that is sound - plenty of examples. I have nearly zero hope this happens. 

[Goon]

The idea that an aggressive retool is going to save what is a franchise in shambles is laughable.

 

The problems this franchise facing can be traced back to two things. It began when Hextall did a half assed rebuild where he tried to rebuild while keeping the team's best players. This resulted in the team just missing or just making the playoffs, never getting enough high end draft picks to get difference makers, and not hitting on enough of the draft picks they had in the first place. The second part of this was Fletcher coming in and not realizing that the new core of players Hextall drafted simply weren't good enough, and made moves as if they were. The absolute worst thing Fletcher could do is continue to try to build something out of this core group of players. So what's the plan, well I'm glad you asked.

 

They can't do anything with - Couturier, Hayes, Atkinson, and Risto. 

They can and should trade - Provorov, Konecny, Lindblom, Laughton

Either re-sign or trade - Sanheim [I would prefer to keep him after his improvements this year]

Young players they should still build around - Hart, Farabee, York

Young players who should get opportunities for the next year or two - Tippett, Frost, Cates, Laczynski, Foerster, Brink, etc

 

Provorov and Konecny need to go for picks/prospects. I'm fine with keeping Lindblom and Laughton but if you can get something for them I would move on and let younger guys take their spot. They need to treat the next two seasons as full on rebuild years. Play the young guys and see what you have in some of them. You can add a top five pick this year to a likely top 10 pick next year in a great draft.

 

Honestly, I would MUCH rather watch a bad team who is playing a bunch of young guys and carrying out a plan as opposed to trying to turn a terrible team into a contender with some band aid moves. Sadly this isn't going to happen and one year from now you will have a new GM who didn't pick his coach having to do exactly what I am saying. This franchise is an absolute mess.

[OccamsRazor]

On 5/9/2022 at 6:19 AM, Teddal5678 said:

Maybe Gaudreau tips the age scale a bit and if this team is looking at a 5 year rebuild then sure, no point in signing him or anyone else for that matter. All other points stand AND I’m not locking myself into a 5 year rebuild. It doesn’t have to play out that way with management that is sound - plenty of examples. I have nearly zero hope this happens. 

 

 

I say the Oilers are once again about to get bounced.

 

Pick up the phone and call them about Draisaitl they need a star to build around.

 

Start with Hart, Provy and Frost and go from there it is a start...Flyers more than likely won't find a guy his caliber in the draft...be aggressive be aggressive...

 

...I'd even throw Coots in there if they want a vet...

[mojo1917]

On 5/9/2022 at 11:49 PM, Goon said:

The problems this franchise facing can be traced back to two things. It began when Hextall did a half assed rebuild where he tried to rebuild while keeping the team's best players. This resulted in the team just missing or just making the playoffs, never getting enough high end draft picks to get difference makers, and not hitting on enough of the draft picks they had in the first place. The second part of this was Fletcher coming in and not realizing that the new core of players Hextall drafted simply weren't good enough, and made moves as if they were. The absolute worst thing Fletcher could do is continue to try to build something out of this core group of players.

 

I don't think anyone realized the Hextall drafted players were "not good enough" until they weren't.

This is hindsight talking, which is fine. But when Hextall was fired, the Flyers prospects were considered top 5 in the league and these picks were high-floor low-ceiling types because of where they were picked. It was the general consensus of the hockey community that these players would be "good". 

It wasn't until their development plateaued that people found themselves in *gestures broadly* this situation.

Maybe that reality could have been acknowledged more quickly, but development isn't linear and the organization has a history of pulling the plug on young players only to see them thrive for other teams. 

In fact, a lot of these Hextall drafted players are NHL players, they're just not good enough NHL players. 

 

The philosophy of drafting players needs to change, that is a start.

Obviously you need your draft picks to play in the league, so there is a trade off between taking big swings on a guy with crazy skill but hates defense and the Scott Laughton type player. When in the draft to you take the risk? 

 

On 5/9/2022 at 11:49 PM, Goon said:

Honestly, I would MUCH rather watch a bad team who is playing a bunch of young guys and carrying out a plan as opposed to trying to turn a terrible team into a contender with some band aid moves. Sadly this isn't going to happen and one year from now you will have a new GM who didn't pick his coach having to do exactly what I am saying. This franchise is an absolute mess.

spot on with this. I feel much the same way.

Edited May 11, 2022 by mojo1917

[CoachX]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:15 AM, FireDillabaugh said:

There's just no doubt about it.

 

Dave Scott, Holmgren, Lombardi, Fletcher, Hanrahan, and Flahr all need to go.  These are apparently the names that are involved in the team's managerial decision making.  Valerie Camillo apparently only handles the business strategy side of things, and does know a lot about the NHL, being a member of the NHL Board of Governors.  Clarke and Barber aren't involved in managerial decisions and direction, and haven't been for a number of years.  As much as some who don't know what they're talking about believe that these two still deserve blame for this team's direction, it's just not fact.  Simple as that.  It's Holmgren who is the cancer pulling the strings of this organization, with Dave Scott listening to his advice and judgement, because he just doesn't know much about the NHL or how to be a Governor of a competitive NHL team.  And, of course, much of the scouting squad needs to be reformed.  It's the only way things will change.  Until those higher ups at Comcast, who are supposed to be holding Scott accountable, realize this, the mediocrity will only continue.

 

Because this big of a move is what needs to happen, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for it to take place anytime soon.  I believe this team will still be the mediocrity that it is for at least 3 or 4 more years of Chuck Fletcher's mistakes and failures, unfortunately.

 

Going after big name FAs, or making trades for pieces are just band-aids, when the wounds of this franchise are fatal and just can't be fixed by band-aids any longer.  With Fletcher as GM, those band-aids only result in FA players being overpaid and giving up far too much in trades.  It's what he does.  And there's just no excuse for Holmgren not realizing that before he even slightly considered hiring him for ANY position here at all.

 

It hurts to state these facts.  But, sometimes reality sucks.

 

 

TLDR

[CoachX]

I was just reading an article suggesting a "retool" would mean trading vets for vets. It went on to say IP or TS would be the likely candidates, and that JVR would have to be moved. 

 

I kinda wonder if TK would be in this group. I haven't been happy with him lately,  but I think moving him, or IP, would be a huge mistake

 

 

[flyer4ever]

Trying to fix this mess by moving Provorov, Sanheim, Koneckny whilst moving forward with Couturier, Ellis, Atkinson, Hayes is just assurance of more of the same for years to come. Until they admit what they have and where they are and BITFU then the season just finished is what we will see again and again.  The wistfulness that healthy Coots and Ellis are going to push this team into a contender is Kenny Banyan gold comedy. Yet this is what Chuckles is planning on. A total **** show is what the Flyers are. I'm not being a downer, that's what it is.

It's just like your gun laws. They don't care how many ignorance driven mass shootings occur, this is how we do it and we aren't changing.

[FD19372]

Before anyone asks, NO to DeBoer.

[FD19372]

I think Trotz is going to coach Vegas, btw...from what I've read. I hope I'm wrong.

[OccamsRazor]

35 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

I think Trotz is going to coach Vegas, btw...from what I've read. I hope I'm wrong.

 

That is where i predicted when he was let go he would want to go to a team closer to competing than he would get in Philly.

 

Can't blame him. He inherits a solid team in need of guidance and a skill injection.

 

I would love for the Flyer to try and pry Theodore from them with their cap issues.

 

I don't mind gathering good pieces a long the way.

 

Anthing to push defensemen like Risto to the bottom pair.

[FD19372]

While they're at it with their head coaching search, they should trade for Oettinger. I'm still processing what a great performance that was. It wasn't enough to save Dallas, but great nonetheless.

[flyer4ever]

5 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

That is where i predicted when he was let go he would want to go to a team closer to competing than he would get in Philly.

 

Can't blame him. He inherits a solid team in need of guidance and a skill injection.

 

I would love for the Flyer to try and pry Theodore from them with their cap issues.

 

I don't mind gathering good pieces a long the way.

 

Anthing to push defensemen like Risto to the bottom pair.

I agree on Theodore. But you can't have your bottom pair d guys making 6 mil per. Maybe they take Ellis and LTIR him.

[elmatus]

What Fletch should aim for this off season is trying to move both Hayes and Risto. He won't do either of course, but he should. Both of them are on bad contracts that will only get worse and continue hampering this team's ability to rebuild. In the case of Risto, I think moving him is addition by subtraction anyway.

 

JVR it would be nice if he could have a somewhat okay year next season, just so he'd be fairly moveable by the trade deadline. It's hard to imagine that happening, but he did have a decent season not so long ago. Maybe he can do it again. That would be a great parting gift to a franchise who gave him too much money for too little reward. If he could be moved for some sort of set involving a 2nd round pick or something, that would seem good to me.

 

As far as signings go, I'm not really sure anyone stands out all that much. There are always some over the hill vets around to snag, and I wouldn't be opposed to that necessarily. I just really hope Fletch doesn't overpay for any of them, like he did Hayes and now Risto. Given what he did for those two, I don't feel confident in his ability to obtain proper value on his signings. It seems rather more likely that he'll overpay for someone's services, especially if Giroux doesn't come back on some sort of loyalty discount.

[Bubba]

You're right about moving Risto but foolish fletch after trading more than he's worth overpaid him on an extension.  Hayes should go while they can still get value for him and the dumbass 8 year extension he gave Couturier, if Couturier plays well next year, trade him too.  He's on the wrong side of 29 & now is showing his rough game takes a toll.  He won't be a 1st line player in 3 years.  On the unreasonable to expect list, trade Ellis if he plays 40 out of the 1st 50 games next year.  Another 30+ player foolish fletch gets with 5 or 6 years to go on his contract.  Wouldn't surprise me if fletch wants to sign Gordie Howe.

 

As far as JVR, they traded him for Luke Schenn, way to go homer!

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Anyone in the Flyers organization that thinks an 'aggressive retool' can make this team a legitimate Stanley Cup contender is a fool. I have to believe that they're only using that term to appease that moron Dave Scott and that everyone has to believe that there are too many holes to fill or that the youth are going to need to take some lumps (which for some strange reason, this franchise doesn't want them to do that). 

 

If Schmuck is any kind of GM, he's sitting down with his scouts, coaching staff and senior advisors and they're having an honest conversation about how to rebuild this club properly. And if Clarke and Holmgren think that trading out of this is the way to build a contender, then they need to be fired right on the spot.

 

If I were GM of the club, I'd identify who the pillars are going forward. For instance, my forwards would be Couturier (contrary to others on here, he's been playing with a bad back for the past two years and you could see he was really laboring <- we need to wonder how much of that was the medical and training staff telling him he was OK to play), Konecny (I get that some want to move him, but the guy has been all over the lineup and has never been allowed to develop chemistry with anyone and as soon as he develops chemistry, he gets moved again for no reason), Frost (a guy who has had the absolute misfortune of being mishandled development wise by the Flyers), Farabee (who has excelled despite the Flyers development path), Brink, Tippett, Laczynski, Ratcliffe, Laughton and Noah Cates (who looks like he might end up being a real gem for a late round pick). Everyone else is up for grabs. 

 

So, in terms of moving forwards, the first one on the list is JVR. I get that some think he has no value, but he's a 25 goal scorer with a year left on his $7 million deal. If the Flyers eat half, there are a number of teams who would take him because he's still lethal on the power play. I could see the Kings being interested, especially with Dustin Brown retiring. If you can flip JVR for someone like Jarret Anderson-Dolan and a draft pick, he's out the door. Next up is Cam Atkinson. Again, played well for the Flyers considering, but if the Flyers are going young, he needs to be shown the door. I'm certain that there'll be teams out there who will want him. I could see Minnesota being interested, especially with their pending cap crunch coming. They'll want cost certainty and Atkinson can bring that. There's no way that the Wild can afford Fiala (who will more than likely be moved) and I fully expect that they'll move Dumba to help free up money. To me, Atkinson going there will help replace some of the lost offense in Fiala and Atkinson can be in a leadership role. The third forward who needs to go is Hayes. After he threw a tantrum about Keith Yandle being scratched, there's been speculation about his happiness in Philadelphia. Let's also not forget the infamous quote about making the Flyers pay if they want him. And now that the first three years of the contract are complete, he can now be traded to one of the teams not on his 12 club trade list. To me, the ideal fit is Boston. Flip him for Erik Haula, John Beecher and Brandon Carlo. Boston gets their center behind Bergeron and Hayes goes home. Finally, the last player to move is Oskar Lindblom. Now, I love Lindblom, but he needs a change of scenery. He's never been the same player after his cancer treatments and I think he just needs to go to another place to refind his game. I have him as part of a package that will be discussed later. So, the forwards would look like the following:

Farabee - Couturier - Konecny

N. Cates - Frost - Tippett

Laughton - Haula - Brink

Ratcliffe - Beecher - Laczynski

 

Now we get to the defense and identifying who are stayers. Sanheim, York and Zamula are the three guys that I keep on the left side. In terms of the right side, it's Ellis and only because that contract is not moveable. So, we begin with Provorov. This one hurts. He started out so strong, and after his third year, I thought he was ready to become the legitimate number one this club needed. He failed and all but flamed out. To make matters worse, rather than try to fix what was wrong, he was fed even more ice time and the errors, mistakes and bad habits compounded and multiplied. In a big deal, I move him to Detroit for Simon Edvinsson, a future 1st round pick (lottery protected) and Joe Veleno. Provorov immediately becomes a top pairing guy with Moritz Seider and the Flyers get a $6.75 million breathing space. Next up is Ristolainen. I get that he was signed to a new 5 year deal, but with Brandon Carlo coming over from Boston, there's no need for Ristolainen. Considering Edmonton was very interested, Ristolainen and Lindblom I'd package to Edmonton for a collection of the following: Tyson Barrie, Philip Broberg, Carter Savoie and a draft pick. The defense would look like the following:

Sanheim - Ellis

York - Carlo

Zamula/Broberg - Barrie

Edvinsson can be in the AHL where he'll pair with Ronnie Attard. 

 

So, that leaves goaltending and it's pretty clear that it will be Hart and Fedotov. 

 

Finally, we have the draft and with the 5th overall choice, the Flyers select from Winnipeg, Matthew Savoie. I'm looking at all of this and honestly, the Flyers wouldn't even need to be active in free agency. Wholesale changes have been made, they'll have a bruiser on defense in Carlo, the bottom six is much better than last year and the goaltending is young and very active. The only real question mark would be the 2nd line and even then, the three of them played really well together and that there's real chemistry there. I strongly believe that Frost and Tippett are ready to break out and Cates might be the biggest gem in the organization outside of Brink. As mentioned, the club would be young and fast and the backend would be surprisingly mobile. They'll take lumps along the way and I don't think they'd be playoff bound yet, but it's a start. More important, they've got money and they're out from underneath some bad contracts.

[mojo1917]

@BobbyClarkeFan16

This was the idea OR and I had when he asked to have this thread split off from its original.

 

Good ideas and good post.

Beats hoping that Sasha Barkov tires of bad drivers and too many beautiful women.  

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

18 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@BobbyClarkeFan16

This was the idea OR and I had when he asked to have this thread split off from its original.

 

Good ideas and good post.

Beats hoping that Sasha Barkov tires of bad drivers and too many beautiful women.  

Thank you. I saw people posting things like Draisatl, Barkov and others and it's like "where the incentives for any of these clubs to move those guys" and the answer is there isn't. What I took a look at was Buffalo's trade of Eichel and they became a better team after they got rid of their superstar. And honestly, if you have a good group of forwards, good group of defenders and good goaltending, you don't need a superstar to carry you. You only get a superstar after the rest of your team is in place. It's no longer like it was in previous years when a superstar could carry a team because you shut down the superstar and the team is done. I look at this and honestly, there's no reason why the top line can't produce 200 points between them, the second can't produce 150 points, the third and fourth 120 points. That kind of depth is invaluable. As for the draft pick, I really believe Savoie has star quality to his game. He can skate, he can p pass and see the ice well and more important, he can shoot. His slap shot, snap shot and especially his wrist shot, are second to none. The only thing he lacks is 'size', but even that doesn't become a factor in the grand scheme of things.

[OccamsRazor]

53 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

You only get a superstar after the rest of your team is in place.

 

 

Go ahead and get use to it...

 

 

...he will look good back checking with JVR and Hayes.

[Brewin Flames]

Still can't fathom why he made no attempt at contact on that play, no body, no puck....christ.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Brewin Flames

[flyercanuck]

Team building...

 

 Team A decides to rebuild and trades away Kevin Hayes and is now a top 5 team in the entire league.

 Team B decides to go for it, continually, and goes after UFA I won't sign with the Flyers unless they overpay me Kevin Hayes and proceed to build the team around him and is now a bottom 5 team.

 

BCF - the only way you're getting that haul for Hayes and his contract is if Fletcher trades himself to Boston first.

[flyercanuck]

11 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Go ahead and get use to it...

 

 

...he will look good back checking with JVR and Hayes.

 

Harts gonna need a bigger psychiatrist.

[flyer4ever]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Team building...

 

 Team A decides to rebuild and trades away Kevin Hayes and is now a top 5 team in the entire league.

 Team B decides to go for it, continually, and goes after UFA I won't sign with the Flyers unless they overpay me Kevin Hayes and proceed to build the team around him and is now a bottom 5 team.

 

BCF - the only way you're getting that haul for Hayes and his contract is if Fletcher trades himself to Boston first.

That's I trade I would include a 2nd in.