Tocchet as Coach - I feel insulted

[OccamsRazor]

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

That forward that plays for Calgary is only going to help make us mediocre again, giving us a worse draft, and then probably 4 years of Why the F did we sign this guy? at the end of it...just like JVR/Hayes/Ristolainen/most of Homers great signings and probably Ellis.

 

That is your opinion and you can't prove a damn bit of that.

 

Besides name a team in the NHL who couldn't use his skill.

 

You don't have to be out of gas before you fill up your gas tank.

 

Why must you be on the cusp of a Cup and then acquire talent like his?

 

I get it you don't like the deals like Risto but you need good talent around the young talent kids you are trying to teach and nurture into warriors.

 

Do you think when all us bootcamps finally get to our units they just just deploy us with nothing but a bunch of fellow boots?

 

Hell no you are deployed with squad leaders  and other ranking enlisted.

 

So the Flyers need those type of guys.

 

And they need to jettison the Hayes and JVR types, keep the Atkinson types.

 

Every Cup winner as vets on it.

 

So if you must have vets well two I am good with keeping are Coots and Cam.

 

But I'd move them too for the right price.

 

But none of this means you can't still add skill while accending.

 

This bottom 6 isn't set much less the top 6.

 

Keep getting better tanking isn't even guaranteed.

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by OccamsRazor

[CoachX]

[flyercanuck]

34 minutes ago, CoachX said:

When Danny Briere signed with the Flyers, he was 29. The Flyers were the worst team in the league at the time he signed. I remember many here bytching hard about not wanting him. He was getting old. He was too expensive, too small, and too soft. He played 11 seasons to that point, 565 games, 186 goals, and 249 assists. Today he is Flyer legend, and many want him as the new GM. I guess we see how that worked out

 

Johnny G has played 9 seasons (602 games, less injuries than DB), he has 210 goals, and 399 assists. Not sure why we wouldn't a guy like that? History can repeat itself

 

just sayin is all

 

He's a Flyer legend? He had 1 season over 70 points (72). He had 1 great playoff run. Legends come pretty easy in Flyerland I guess. I never considered him one. 

His last season he had 16 points. 49 the year before. 68. 53. 25. 72. Legendary.

[flyercanuck]

21 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

That is your opinion and you can't prove a damn bit of that.

 

Besides name a team in the NHL who couldn't use his skill.

 

You don't have to be out of gas before you fill up your gas tank.

 

Why must you be on the cusp of a Cup and then acquire talent like his?

 

I get it you don't like the deals like Risto but you need good talent around the young talent kids you are trying to teach and nature into warriors.

 

Do thing when all us bootcamps finally get to our units they just just deploy us with nothing but a bunch of fellow boots?

 

Hell no you are deployed with squad leaders  and other ranking enlisted.

 

So the Flyers need those type of guys.

 

 You were saying THE EXACT SAME THING when they signed....

 

21 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

And they need to jettison the Hayes and JVR types keep the Atkinson types.

 

Every Cup winner as vets on it.

 

So if you must have vets well two I am good with keeping are Coots and Cam.

 

But I'd move them too for the right price.

 

But none of this means you can still add skill.

 

This bottom 6 isn't set much less the top 6.

 

Keep getting better tanking isn't even guaranteed.

 

 

 

 And when they traded for Risto. And when they signed Bryz.

 

 Me? I've had it with chasing these "used to be" guys and signing them long term. 

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

You were saying THE EXACT SAME THING when they signed....

 

 

What I'm confused. Are you talking about Hayes? I'm not following.

 

And they swung and missed. 

 

So what are they never suppose to sign a players who good because they've missed?

 

They are only allowed to miss on draft picks?

 

I don't get where I said the same thing.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

What I'm confused. Are you talking about Hayes? I'm not following.

 

And they swung and missed. 

 

So what are they never suppose to sign a players who good because they've missed?

 

They are only allowed to miss on draft picks?

 

I don't get where I said the same thing.

 

I'd be all for signing a guy like Gaudreau, if I thought we were a player like that away from contending. We're not. We're not even close. So whats the point of having soon to be 30 Johnny Hockey signed for 7 years at some ridiculous price? Other than this is how the Flyers do it...which always gets us nowhere. We talk about it all the time on here. And here we are, "Ya, let's get him". Again. 

 

 How about building a team? Then adding the missing veteran pieces? Instead of adding the veteran pieces. Then adding more veteran pieces. Then adding more. Then trying to get rid of those contracts that nobody wants. Over. And over. And over. Cause here we are, there yet again. So lets add more?

 

 I'm sure Fletcher is going to do just that, if he's able to. 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by flyercanuck

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I loved Tocchet the right winger. I don't like Tocchet the coach. I'm certain he'd be a great assistant, but he's simply not head coaching material. 

[mojo1917]

Was listening to Snow the Goalie this afternoon. 

San Fillippo is heavy on the hire Trotz tip.

He then layed out this.

Atkinson,  Schieffle, Farabee

Lishuken, Couturier,  Tippett 

Allison, Hayes, Laughton 

Cates, Lacsznski,MacEwan

 

Ellis, Provorov 

Sanhiem,  Ristolainen 

York, Rutta

Hart,

Feditov

 

Coached by Barry Trotz?

That could be a prototypical Barry Trotz team that wins more games than it should.

 

The idea gave me a moment's pause.  That the team could find itself winning more than losing- quickly

 

I know its not Tocchet. 

I don't want Tocchet.

 

It's not pie in the sky. Bring the 8 million boy home.

It seems possible. 

 

 

 

 

 

[CoachX]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

He's a Flyer legend? He had 1 season over 70 points (72). He had 1 great playoff run. Legends come pretty easy in Flyerland I guess. I never considered him one. 

His last season he had 16 points. 49 the year before. 68. 53. 25. 72. Legendary.

Ok, maybe legend is over the top. But I'm pretty sure you were right there during that playoff run, with the rest of us, happy as hogs in schit. If you are honestly saying he was a horrible signing, and a mistake,  then so be it. But the Briere signing was ine of the key moves that turned the last place Flyers into a conference finals appearance, in a single season. There aren't too many Flyer fans lamenting him being signed

 

I'm not saying JG would do the same. There's no way we could know. But he's statistically better then Briere was when he came to Philly. So I for one, wouldn't mind seeing it

[SCFlyguy]

5 hours ago, CoachX said:

@SCFlyguy

 

So why bother being a fan? I hear cat grooming is popular. You should try that

I don't want to blow your mind, but hear me out, you can think they stink and still be a fan.  Crazy, right?

Edited May 13, 2022 by SCFlyguy

[CoachX]

16 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

I don't want to blow your mind, but here me out, you can think they stink and still be a fan.  Crazy, right?

[SCFlyguy]

You'll be back.

[GrittyForever]

6 hours ago, CoachX said:

I know I started this thread, and its about Tocchet, but I want to address this POV. Dave Scott came out and said, 'blank check". Now I don't have any faith in that guy at all, but he must be intelligent to get to where he is today. I don't see an intelligent guy, coming out and making that statement, if he intended it as lip service. There WILL be changes. I think significant changes. We wont get a rebuild, but I expect a complete turnover that resembles one. You also can't make that statement, then tank for Bedard. I don't think they will hire a lame duck to sit behind the bench for a few seasons. I do think they will seriously consider Tocchet (UGH! I HATE ME FOR TYPING THAT). I think he is the front runner. It allows Dave Scott an out. If Tocchet fails, and I think he will, they can always say they went the Flyer angle. I hope they resist that urge, and go with a proven coach. But at the start of the season, the core won't be the same as it was at the end of this season

Well, speaking of intelligence, IF you are going to do a tear down on the way to a rebuild, the very strong draft year featuring Bedard would be the time to do it. That would be SMART. 

[flyercanuck]

7 hours ago, CoachX said:

Ok, maybe legend is over the top. But I'm pretty sure you were right there during that playoff run, with the rest of us, happy as hogs in schit. If you are honestly saying he was a horrible signing, and a mistake,  then so be it. But the Briere signing was ine of the key moves that turned the last place Flyers into a conference finals appearance, in a single season. There aren't too many Flyer fans lamenting him being signed

 

I'm not saying JG would do the same. There's no way we could know. But he's statistically better then Briere was when he came to Philly. So I for one, wouldn't mind seeing it

 

 I'm not saying I didn't like Briere. He just wasn't anything overly special, other than one playoff run. How did his Flyer career end? Buyout. Legendary.

 

 As for Gaudreau, he had a career year this past season. Playing for Sutter. Playing for his big payday. If he comes to Philly, he won't be playing for Sutter. He'll already have gotten paid. He'll be playing on a team built around an overpaid lazy slug. Last year he put up 49 points. The year before, 58. I just hope Fletcher takes those numbers into consideration before he gives him that 7 year $70 million contract. But who am I kidding. I just hope he re-signs in Calgary and saves us from ourselves.

[CoachX]

10 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

Well, speaking of intelligence, IF you are going to do a tear down on the way to a rebuild, the very strong draft year featuring Bedard would be the time to do it. That would be SMART. 

[SCFlyguy]

The funny thing is ppl are saying, "we don't want to do a tear down", but the Flyers tried to win as hard as they could and got the 5th pick so what's the difference?  Fooling yourself with shiny moves to get excited about next year?  

Edited May 13, 2022 by pilldoc
edited part not necessary

[mojo1917]

18 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

Team needs a surgical tear down and then rebuild. No coach can fix this. I think even Trotz could raise us to mediocrity maybe, but not to excellence, not with this roster. 

 

This is the rub with the team isn't it?

There is not ZOMG! talent coursing through the system.

But there are a lot of low ceiling high floor players, that, if they play with structure could create a team with 4 similar lines.

With similar attributes, maybe the battles on the top two lines are losses or break-evens but then the bottom 2 lines are wins...

 

In the Podcast (snow the goalie) around 35 minutes is where SanFillippo starts with the line-up/ potential moves. 

It was interesting.

If Trotz can institute a culture then maybe the team as it *could be* would be competitive enough to at least watch, the scouting, drafting and development will still need to improve. There has been money and talent? invested in those areas this year. When those investments bear fruit, who knows? 

Still, it was the first non-team affiliated columnist that plausibly explained how the coaching hire could affect all the other systems in ways that would not be 5 more years of terrible on ice results. 

 

 

I don't see where the guy arguing with Bizz on TNT is fixing all the bad on the Flyers.

 

SanFillippo is in on Trotz, I wouldn't be out. If the "blank check" statement is true... It could work.

[OccamsRazor]

5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

As for Gaudreau, he had a career year this past season

 

Exactly i think you must have missed the part of me saying them getting rid of JVR and giving his cap hit to Johnny.

 

I also wasn't saying yes go out and get him just expecting Chuck to do so any ways and as long as he got rid of JVR i could live with it as well if he is also going to eventually maybe get rid of Hayes which may just happen after the upcoming season.

 

You know he doesn't have the cap space to go get him as of yet so he will have to move something to even think about it.

 

Your hate for Chuck and constant negativity is jading your outlook. Chill bro....you need to find some of that good Canadian skunk and take a few puffs...it will relax you and help your stress....

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said:

The funny thing is ppl are saying, "we don't want to do a tear down", but the Flyers tried to win as hard as they could and got the 5th pick so what's the difference?  Fooling yourself with shiny moves to get excited about next year?  Grow up.

unnecessary

[AJgoal]

The Flyers getting Gaudreau is most likely to end exactly how @flyercanuckpredicts. First, the Flyers will spend assets to dump JvR and his contract, as well as his production. Then they will also have to jettison another player, I'm guessing either Konecny or Provorov, in a deal that brings back little in the way of cap. 

 

Indications are that Gaudreau will command~10 million on the open market. So you've traded two players for one. 

 

let's assume that it's Konecny that goes with JvR. 

 

Konecny: 16g, 36a, 52p

JvR: 24g, 14a, 38p

 

A total of 40g, 50a, 90p outgoing.

 

Gaudreau: 40g, 75a, 115 p in a career year. So you're adding 25 assists, plus whatever you get from the low cost guy that they bring in to replace Konecny. And that's if he continues to produce like last year. Otherwise, he's a ppg player over his career, which means you're losing production.

 

which sounds fine. Until you realize that they also lost Giroux's production. Even if Couturier comes back at 100%, you're looking at another never ending contract that may slightly increase their offensive production over a terrible year. Not exactly the kind of move that makes me all warm and fuzzy. It just leaves one more contract for Fletcher's eventual replacement to somehow get rid of.

[OccamsRazor]

5 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

The funny thing is ppl are saying, "we don't want to do a tear down", but the Flyers tried to win as hard as they could and got the 5th pick so what's the difference?  Fooling yourself with shiny moves to get excited about next year?  Grow up.

 

And you are ignoring the fact that we never actually got to see the team Chuck assembled but that doesn't stop you from judging it all and giving us all your expert advice from your years of GMing in the NHL.

 

They had a rash of injuries and half the team guys who should have been developing in the AHL.

 

But we are the problem.

 

stop acting so superior to others and their opinion tasting yours as the only way to do this.

 

Last time I check Homer's way got them to game 6 of the Stanely Cup finals.

 

Bottom line there are many ways to do it see Tampa Bay they didn't tear it all down and are trying to 3 peat.

 

Do better...

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by pilldoc
edited part not necessary

[OccamsRazor]

50 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

Konecny: 16g, 36a, 52p

JvR: 24g, 14a, 38p

 

 

And you are counting a good portion of stats that were racked up in garbage time in meaningless games only to destroy the draft pick which worked flawlessly.

 

So you could very well be selling two guys who value will never even be this high so yeah there's that...

[radoran]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

Last time I check Homer's way got them to game 6 of the Stanely Cup finals.

 

Overall I'm with you on the constant negativity - and I'm coming from a pretty negative perspective myself...

 

But 2010 was also the Very Last Gasp of the post-cap circumvention that the "Flyers way" was able to take advantage of over the years.

 

And then he traded away the two guys he had blown the circumvention opportunities on and pissed off every other franchise in the league by trying to strong arm the Preds over Shea Weber.

 

Is there a team that has successfully "aggressively retooled" in the past 10 years?

[flyercanuck]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Exactly i think you must have missed the part of me saying them getting rid of JVR and giving his cap hit to Johnny.

 

I also wasn't saying yes go out and get him just expecting Chuck to do so any ways and as long as he got rid of JVR i could live with it as well if he is also going to eventually maybe get rid of Hayes which may just happen after the upcoming season.

 

You know he doesn't have the cap space to go get him as of yet so he will have to move something to even think about it.

 

Your hate for Chuck and constant negativity is jading your outlook. Chill bro....you need to find some of that good Canadian skunk and take a few puffs...it will relax you and help your stress....

 

 So what are you throwing in to get rid of JVR?  Or are you buying him out? Either way, another loss for the Flyers in the pocketbook or prospect dept. 

 

 So then we have to get rid of Hayes. So what are we giving up there, or are we buying him out too? So we can then sign Gaudreau, and voila, a few years from now we can send assets to get rid of him or buy him out. How are you guys not seeing this groundhog day that's been going on for way too long?

 

 My hate for Chuck comes from being a fan of one of the best franchises in the NHL turned into a complete laughingstock, and some guys on here saying "Ya, lets keep doing the same". It's insanity. Please give me a positive spin on what Chuck has done getting us down with the worst franchises in hockey while spending to the max and trading away draft picks to get there. 

 

 As for the skunk...don't worry about me...I grow it in my backyard and have more than enough to give out to friends. Last year was Timewarp, Pink Berry, QC Blue and Power Africa MK Ultra. I'm good. 

[OccamsRazor]

49 minutes ago, radoran said:

I'm coming from a pretty negative perspective myself...

 

Me too but it gets to be just too much. And it is affecting me as well but at the end of the day we have to poke our head out our hole and expect to see sunshine sometime.

 

50 minutes ago, radoran said:

But 2010 was also the Very Last Gasp of the post-cap circumvention that the "Flyers way" was able to take advantage of over the years.

 

But it still worked the scraped the bottom (2006-07) ended up with JVR (oh joy) and well if i remember correctly a year later lost out in the conference finals to Penguins after the injuries to Kimmo and Coburn after Homer made some good trades and free agent signings.

 

2008-09 lost to Cup winner Penguins in quarter finals.

 

Then in 2009-10 made it to game 6 of the finals with a AHL goalie.

 

So despite all it's warts still some of the best hockey i have seen since the 1999-00 Eastern conference loss to Cup winning Devils.

 

And the 1999-00 team might of had a couple bigger Super stars but 2009-10 is the most exciting season i have ever witnessed since i have been following the Flyers. Even more exciting than the 1997 Cup run sweeping.

 

59 minutes ago, radoran said:

And then he traded away the two guys he had blown the circumvention opportunities on and pissed off every other franchise in the league by trying to strong arm the Preds over Shea Weber.

 

Yeah he has had his missteps too what GM doesn't when they are swinging for the fences and is maybe being forced by the owner to get a Cup before his time is up which well never happened.

 

And even Joe Sakic's way hasn't yielded squat but short comings till well they finally if they ever do win it and that was by holding to all the draft picks and supposedly by some the right way to do it.

 

Still as Cupless as the Flyers since the 2010 run.

 

Bottom line is there are many ways to skin a cat and in the end WGAF who the cat was skint as long as it gets skint (is that even a word).