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Tocchet as Coach - I feel insulted


CoachX

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1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

So what are you throwing in to get rid of JVR? 

 

I'm hoping picking up half of his salary should do it to a Yotes team or Kraken team or anywhere with cap space but JVR at a 3.5 mill cap hit should attractive to some team if not then yeah i guess buy him out.

 

3 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

another loss for the Flyers in the pocketbook or prospect dept. 

 

Yep every year is a loss when you don't win your last game of the year. And every team that gave up assets to swing for it loss assets it comes with the business...as i just stated Joe Sakic has been doing it "your way" keeping 1st and 2nd round draft picks and well are still as Cupless as Homer's way since the 2010 way.

 

6 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

So we can then sign Gaudreau, and voila, a few years from now we can send assets to get rid of him or buy him out.

 

Can't say my crystal ball is in the shop getting a tune up.

 

But also Tampa Bay didn't tear it down they got rid of there old aging stars and kept drafting and developing and they won the Cup with a mix of draft picks and free agents and trades.

 

So why can't JG be a key part of a Cup win in 3 years???

 

Tampa didn't draft Pat Maroon, Tyler Johnson, Erik Cernak, Coleman, Schenn, Mcdonagh, Sergachev, Goodrow, Bogosian, Rutta, Coburn, Stehpens and Verhaeghe.

 

And they didn't like do it and build it in a year they stayed comepetitive and went on runs and failed first before getting it right. 

 

16 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 My hate for Chuck comes from being a fan of one of the best franchises in the NHL turned into a complete laughingstock, and some guys on here saying

 

And rightfully so but you have to hold out that they change....what else is there??

 

17 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 As for the skunk...don't worry about me...I grow it in my backyard and have more than enough to give out to friends.

 

Lucky bastage is that your way of asking for my address...

 

...my glaucoma is acting up...

 

...about to go on my walk in my neighborhood (always walk for about 25-30 minutes when i get home from the gym can't do cardio and then come back eat breakfast at 3 pm and then take my meds *wink* *wink*

 

Cheers

 

:cheers:

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

Last time I check Homer's way got them to game 6 of the Stanely Cup finals.

Last time I checked Homer's way has lead to 12 years of hockey mediocrity.  12 years of trying to fix two-year problems with seven-year contracts.  12 years of trying to have their cake (retool) and eat it too (compete). 

 

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

Bottom line there are many ways to do it see Tampa Bay they didn't tear it all down and are trying to 3 peat.

Tampa drafted 1st, 2nd, 6th, 27th, 10th and 3rd in consecutive years.  Also, where were the 7 year contracts to UFAs they signed during the time they were building their team?  They signed guys to 1-3 year contracts at lower money while they drafted well and made shrewd trades and re-signed the players they wanted to keep.  They didn't sign Kevin Hayes because they needed a C to babysit Nolan Patrick for a year.

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4 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

 

This is the rub with the team isn't it?

There is not ZOMG! talent coursing through the system.

But there are a lot of low ceiling high floor players, that, if they play with structure could create a team with 4 similar lines.

With similar attributes, maybe the battles on the top two lines are losses or break-evens but then the bottom 2 lines are wins...

 

In the Podcast (snow the goalie) around 35 minutes is where SanFillippo starts with the line-up/ potential moves. 

It was interesting.

If Trotz can institute a culture then maybe the team as it *could be* would be competitive enough to at least watch, the scouting, drafting and development will still need to improve. There has been money and talent? invested in those areas this year. When those investments bear fruit, who knows? 

Still, it was the first non-team affiliated columnist that plausibly explained how the coaching hire could affect all the other systems in ways that would not be 5 more years of terrible on ice results. 

 

 

I don't see where the guy arguing with Bizz on TNT is fixing all the bad on the Flyers.

 

SanFillippo is in on Trotz, I wouldn't be out. If the "blank check" statement is true... It could work.

I see your point. And I do believe Trotz could raise the level of play and work with the players in the system to maximize them but, as you said, lots of average 3rd and 4th line talent, not a lot of high end talent coming. 

So the thing is, do you want us raised up a little so we pick 10th, 11th, something like that each year, or tear it down completely, be near the bottom, but amass high end talent and after a few years have the potential to be actually good? That's what it comes down to. 

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2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I'm hoping picking up half of his salary should do it to a Yotes team or Kraken team or anywhere with cap space but JVR at a 3.5 mill cap hit should attractive to some team if not then yeah i guess buy him out.

 

 Possibly. 

 

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Yep every year is a loss when you don't win your last game of the year. And every team that gave up assets to swing for it loss assets it comes with the business...as i just stated Joe Sakic has been doing it "your way" keeping 1st and 2nd round draft picks and well are still as Cupless as Homer's way since the 2010 way.

 

 I'm gonna go out on a limb here...I think Sakic is a hell of a lot closer to a cup than Fletch and Homer. He also has, arguably, the 2nd best player in the NHL, the most exciting defenceman in the league, one of the best RWers in the league, one of the best LWers (all drafted and developed by Colorado) and one of the best 2nd line Cs. And, one of the best prospect pools in the entire league. So their window stays open for years.

 

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Can't say my crystal ball is in the shop getting a tune up.

 

But also Tampa Bay didn't tear it down they got rid of there old aging stars and kept drafting and developing and they won the Cup with a mix of draft picks and free agents and trades.

 

 How many cups do Tampa win without #1 pick Steven Stamkos? #2 pick Victor Hedman? 2nd rounder (oh we can just throw those away) Nikita Kucherov? Drafted and developed Brayden Point/Alex Killorn/Ondrej Palat/Anthony Cerelli or 19th overall pick Vasilefsky? Ok, so their top 7 scorers, their #1 goalie, #1 D #1 C #1 RW #1 LW are ALL drafted by Tampa. So how many cups? None. Their team was built through drafting, and then spots were filled in with FAs and trades. Fletcher and Homer try to build through FA and trades, and fill in with whatever draft picks they don't trade away. How can you not see this?

 

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

So why can't JG be a key part of a Cup win in 3 years???

 

 When he's 31 making $10 mil a year with Haysee as his leader? You for real?

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Tampa didn't draft Pat Maroon, Tyler Johnson, Erik Cernak, Coleman, Schenn, Mcdonagh, Sergachev, Goodrow, Bogosian, Rutta, Coburn, Stehpens and Verhaeghe.

 

And they didn't like do it and build it in a year they stayed comepetitive and went on runs and failed first before getting it right. 

 

 Those are all secondary players. They didn't build their team around those guys. Most of them are disposable...meaning you could replace them if they ask for too much. 

 

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

And rightfully so but you have to hold out that they change....what else is there??

 

 

Lucky bastage is that your way of asking for my address...

 

...my glaucoma is acting up...

 

...about to go on my walk in my neighborhood (always walk for about 25-30 minutes when i get home from the gym can't do cardio and then come back eat breakfast at 3 pm and then take my meds *wink* *wink*

 

Cheers

 

:cheers:

 

 

 

 

 PM me. :toast:

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1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

@GrittyForever

it comes down to, can the team compete and build simultaneously?

Teams have been doing it. It will take some time and pain. 

I do think getting the coach right is a large part of solving that puzzle.

 

Phillys been trying to do just that for....47 years. Almost there.

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24 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Phillys been trying to do just that for....47 years. Almost there.

No. This isn't true. 

 

When was the last time the PHI organization had a strong farm team?

 

I can tell you it was the 80s in Hershey. 

The Phantoms have been **** for decades now.

You know who has great farm teams?

TBL, CAR, LAK, MIN

 

PHI has neglected player development for too long and we're "reaping" that benefit. 

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

No. This isn't true. 

 

When was the last time the PHI organization had a strong farm team?

 

I can tell you it was the 80s in Hershey. 

The Phantoms have been **** for decades now.

You know who has great farm teams?

TBL, CAR, LAK, MIN

 

PHI has neglected player development for too long and we're "reaping" that benefit. 

 

 

 

 

 

As mentioned, when Richards/Carter were on the farm they won. They also went to a cup with those two 1st round Flyer picks. Then traded them away. 

 

You're not wrong that they've neglected the farm though. Like their big brother, the Phantoms stink too.

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13 hours ago, FireDillabaugh said:

They won the Calder Cup in 1998 and 2005...

 

They've been trying to build, compete and find the right coach for decades.  Unfortunately, incompetence among the front office has gotten in the way of that far too often.  And, that's only continuing in the present.

 

Have the Syracuse Crunch won the Calder?  I guess I missed that one...

Have the Ontario Reign?

Have the Iowa Wild?

Who do you want them to hire for head coach?

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13 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

As mentioned, when Richards/Carter were on the farm they won. They also went to a cup with those two 1st round Flyer picks. Then traded them away. 

 

You're not wrong that they've neglected the farm though. Like their big brother, the Phantoms stink too.

Richards/Carter was a clear picture of how management coddled players. They should have been staples to build around, leading to a SC. 

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20 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Last time I checked Homer's way has lead to 12 years of hockey mediocrity. 

 

Maybe i am looking somewhere else but i swear Ron Hextall was in there somewhere but it is all on Homer right??

 

20 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Tampa drafted 1st, 2nd, 6th, 27th, 10th and 3rd in consecutive years. 

 

Sure is that Homer's fault too??  Sure Homer and Hextall failed to build around Giroux and Jake.

 

20 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Also, where were the 7 year contracts to UFAs they signed during the time they were building their team?

 

Ryan Mcdonagh says hello!

 

20 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

They didn't sign Kevin Hayes because they needed a C to babysit Nolan Patrick for a year.

 

And sure they missed on both and noone knew Patrick would have the injury luck he had - well except i'm sure you knew it but they failed to call and ask your advice.

 

Homer turned the team around after the draft they landed JVR and took the to the Cup and had way more playoff wins than Hextall.

 

Homer's biggest mistep was getting rid of his star centers and and bring Bryz in but from reports was forced to go sign a playoff goalie which yes i won't argue he choose poorly.

 

Still doesn't change the fact that Tampa didn't tear it all down and rebuild it to get where they are today. 

 

Which was my point. And the Avs didn't either and they drafted there way to where they are and yet still haven't won squat.

 

So as i said again there are multiple ways to build a winner. I am hoping the Flyers call you this offseason to find guidance because i don't want another season like i just witnessed.

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18 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

So their window stays open for years.

 

Yeah it may say something but McKinnon is going on his 10th season and yet still hasn't won squat.

 

18 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

How many cups do Tampa win without #1 pick Steven Stamkos? #2 pick Victor Hedman?

 

Hey i can't help the fact the Flyer's have the worst luck when it comes to them utilizing their two #2 overall picks...maybe they built the arena on an Indian burial ground or something.

 

18 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

When he's 31 making $10 mil a year with Haysee as his leader?

 

C'mon stop it Johnny ain't signing for 10 mill a season. And Hayes i think will be gone after next season.

18 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Their team was built through drafting, and then spots were filled in with FAs and trades.

 

Yeah i said this it takes the right mix but you don't JUST draft your way to a Cup.

 

Once again i said it takes drafting and free agency and trading. 

 

Flyers have good key pieces but they need to continue to build around them.

 

But it may all not even matter if they don't get the coach right.

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1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

Trying to build around the two of them was the mistake in the first place...

 

Well Hextall is the one who gave Jake his contract. So they should have just moved them both??

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Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well Hextall is the one who gave Jake his contract. So they should have just moved them both??

 

And I've been very critical of Hextall for it.

 

The Flyers bet a decade on an aggressive retool by winning the trades and building around the VeeGees.

 

They lost.

 

Time for an aggressive retool!

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2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

And I've been very critical of Hextall for it.

 

The Flyers bet a decade on an aggressive retool by winning the trades and building around the VeeGees.

 

They lost.

 

Time for an aggressive retool!

 

I would have kept Giroux and traded Jake.

 

But i guess that shipped has sailed, felt weird watching Giroux set up the game winning goal last night.

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8 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Trying to build around the two of them was the mistake in the first place...

In the beginning it looked good. Then jake went all jake and, well, there you go

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9 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Hey i can't help the fact the Flyer's have the worst luck when it comes to them utilizing their two #2 overall picks...maybe they built the arena on an Indian burial ground or something.

This is where you lose me. I don't think it was bad luck. I lay this squarely on them. 

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1 minute ago, CoachX said:

This is where you lose me. I don't think it was bad luck. I lay this squarely on them. 

 

Yeah sure they maybe should have traded back on both but you know we have hindsight.

 

But in the Patrick draft i wanted Heiskanen anyways....so i would have missed on Makar too.

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2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yeah sure they maybe should have traded back on both but you know we have hindsight.

 

But in the Patrick draft i wanted Heiskanen anyways....so i would have missed on Makar too.

Well, don't fret. Tocchet will fix all this

:PostAward4:

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15 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

As mentioned, when Richards/Carter were on the farm they won. They also went to a cup with those two 1st round Flyer picks. Then traded them away. 

 

You're not wrong that they've neglected the farm though. Like their big brother, the Phantoms stink too.

That Calder Cup Phantoms team wasn't "built " . Carter and Richards didn't play a full season , they piled on after their CA junior seasons were over.

There was never a "wagon" AHL team .

Lately the Charlotte Checkers have been  beating the hell out of everyone for a good 5 years.

 

Same for the Erie Monsters, Providence Bruins, and Syracuse Crunch. 

When they come to town the beatings commence. 

There is a system in place to develop players for those NHL teams  via their AHL affiliates. 

 

I don't think we're talking about the same idea.

04/05 Phantoms was lightning in a bottle, not the result of organizational planning .

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38 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

That Calder Cup Phantoms team wasn't "built " . Carter and Richards didn't play a full season , they piled on after their CA junior seasons were over.

There was never a "wagon" AHL team .

Lately the Charlotte Checkers have been  beating the hell out of everyone for a good 5 years.

 

Same for the Erie Monsters, Providence Bruins, and Syracuse Crunch. 

When they come to town the beatings commence. 

There is a system in place to develop players for those NHL teams  via their AHL affiliates. 

 

I don't think we're talking about the same idea.

04/05 Phantoms was lightning in a bottle, not the result of organizational planning .

 

And the only reason they were on the Phantoms then was because there was a lockout.

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4 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

That Calder Cup Phantoms team wasn't "built " . Carter and Richards didn't play a full season , they piled on after their CA junior seasons were over.

There was never a "wagon" AHL team .

Lately the Charlotte Checkers have been  beating the hell out of everyone for a good 5 years.

 

Same for the Erie Monsters, Providence Bruins, and Syracuse Crunch. 

When they come to town the beatings commence. 

There is a system in place to develop players for those NHL teams  via their AHL affiliates. 

 

I don't think we're talking about the same idea.

04/05 Phantoms was lightning in a bottle, not the result of organizational planning .

 

You're absolutely right. Hey, I'm all for building through the draft as you well know. I liked Hextalls way of doing that. But something needs to change in developing these guys, because theres been some damn good players who regress when they become Flyers. And they weren't "bad" draft picks.

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