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Tocchet as Coach - I feel insulted


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50 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

Konecny: 16g, 36a, 52p

JvR: 24g, 14a, 38p

 

 

And you are counting a good portion of stats that were racked up in garbage time in meaningless games only to destroy the draft pick which worked flawlessly.

 

So you could very well be selling two guys who value will never even be this high so yeah there's that...

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"There is undeniable optics to this head coaching hire for the Flyers. And bringing in Tocchet would be good optics. Fans showed their frustration and fatigue this season by not showing up. Attendance seriously dwindled as the Flyers' 25-46-11 season plodded to the finish line. Hiring Tocchet, an adored former Flyer who understands what success looks like in Philadelphia, would seemingly reinvigorate the fan base before the first puck is even dropped"   So, we fans are unhapp

Not me. If that happens, it means (A) they are still employing from "The Ol' Boys Network". (B) They aren't going after the best head coach available and so, (C) They are not making a genuine attempt to really improve this hockey club because (D) they are a bunch stupid, ignorant, arrogant jack*sses from Holmgren and Scott, on down through the *Organization. (E) It also likely means that I will continue to not watch them next season, because it will be a (losing) charade.

Phillys been trying to do just that for....47 years. Almost there.

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

Last time I check Homer's way got them to game 6 of the Stanely Cup finals.

 

Overall I'm with you on the constant negativity - and I'm coming from a pretty negative perspective myself...

 

But 2010 was also the Very Last Gasp of the post-cap circumvention that the "Flyers way" was able to take advantage of over the years.

 

And then he traded away the two guys he had blown the circumvention opportunities on and pissed off every other franchise in the league by trying to strong arm the Preds over Shea Weber.

 

Is there a team that has successfully "aggressively retooled" in the past 10 years?

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2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Exactly i think you must have missed the part of me saying them getting rid of JVR and giving his cap hit to Johnny.

 

I also wasn't saying yes go out and get him just expecting Chuck to do so any ways and as long as he got rid of JVR i could live with it as well if he is also going to eventually maybe get rid of Hayes which may just happen after the upcoming season.

 

You know he doesn't have the cap space to go get him as of yet so he will have to move something to even think about it.

 

Your hate for Chuck and constant negativity is jading your outlook. Chill bro....you need to find some of that good Canadian skunk and take a few puffs...it will relax you and help your stress....

 

 So what are you throwing in to get rid of JVR?  Or are you buying him out? Either way, another loss for the Flyers in the pocketbook or prospect dept. 

 

 So then we have to get rid of Hayes. So what are we giving up there, or are we buying him out too? So we can then sign Gaudreau, and voila, a few years from now we can send assets to get rid of him or buy him out. How are you guys not seeing this groundhog day that's been going on for way too long?

 

 My hate for Chuck comes from being a fan of one of the best franchises in the NHL turned into a complete laughingstock, and some guys on here saying "Ya, lets keep doing the same". It's insanity. Please give me a positive spin on what Chuck has done getting us down with the worst franchises in hockey while spending to the max and trading away draft picks to get there. 

 

 As for the skunk...don't worry about me...I grow it in my backyard and have more than enough to give out to friends. Last year was Timewarp, Pink Berry, QC Blue and Power Africa MK Ultra. I'm good. 

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49 minutes ago, radoran said:

I'm coming from a pretty negative perspective myself...

 

Me too but it gets to be just too much. And it is affecting me as well but at the end of the day we have to poke our head out our hole and expect to see sunshine sometime.

 

50 minutes ago, radoran said:

But 2010 was also the Very Last Gasp of the post-cap circumvention that the "Flyers way" was able to take advantage of over the years.

 

But it still worked the scraped the bottom (2006-07) ended up with JVR (oh joy) and well if i remember correctly a year later lost out in the conference finals to Penguins after the injuries to Kimmo and Coburn after Homer made some good trades and free agent signings.

 

2008-09 lost to Cup winner Penguins in quarter finals.

 

Then in 2009-10 made it to game 6 of the finals with a AHL goalie.

 

So despite all it's warts still some of the best hockey i have seen since the 1999-00 Eastern conference loss to Cup winning Devils.

 

And the 1999-00 team might of had a couple bigger Super stars but 2009-10 is the most exciting season i have ever witnessed since i have been following the Flyers. Even more exciting than the 1997 Cup run sweeping.

 

59 minutes ago, radoran said:

And then he traded away the two guys he had blown the circumvention opportunities on and pissed off every other franchise in the league by trying to strong arm the Preds over Shea Weber.

 

Yeah he has had his missteps too what GM doesn't when they are swinging for the fences and is maybe being forced by the owner to get a Cup before his time is up which well never happened.

 

And even Joe Sakic's way hasn't yielded squat but short comings till well they finally if they ever do win it and that was by holding to all the draft picks and supposedly by some the right way to do it.

 

Still as Cupless as the Flyers since the 2010 run.

 

Bottom line is there are many ways to skin a cat and in the end WGAF who the cat was skint as long as it gets skint (is that even a word).

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1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

So what are you throwing in to get rid of JVR? 

 

I'm hoping picking up half of his salary should do it to a Yotes team or Kraken team or anywhere with cap space but JVR at a 3.5 mill cap hit should attractive to some team if not then yeah i guess buy him out.

 

3 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

another loss for the Flyers in the pocketbook or prospect dept. 

 

Yep every year is a loss when you don't win your last game of the year. And every team that gave up assets to swing for it loss assets it comes with the business...as i just stated Joe Sakic has been doing it "your way" keeping 1st and 2nd round draft picks and well are still as Cupless as Homer's way since the 2010 way.

 

6 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

So we can then sign Gaudreau, and voila, a few years from now we can send assets to get rid of him or buy him out.

 

Can't say my crystal ball is in the shop getting a tune up.

 

But also Tampa Bay didn't tear it down they got rid of there old aging stars and kept drafting and developing and they won the Cup with a mix of draft picks and free agents and trades.

 

So why can't JG be a key part of a Cup win in 3 years???

 

Tampa didn't draft Pat Maroon, Tyler Johnson, Erik Cernak, Coleman, Schenn, Mcdonagh, Sergachev, Goodrow, Bogosian, Rutta, Coburn, Stehpens and Verhaeghe.

 

And they didn't like do it and build it in a year they stayed comepetitive and went on runs and failed first before getting it right. 

 

16 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 My hate for Chuck comes from being a fan of one of the best franchises in the NHL turned into a complete laughingstock, and some guys on here saying

 

And rightfully so but you have to hold out that they change....what else is there??

 

17 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 As for the skunk...don't worry about me...I grow it in my backyard and have more than enough to give out to friends.

 

Lucky bastage is that your way of asking for my address...

 

...my glaucoma is acting up...

 

...about to go on my walk in my neighborhood (always walk for about 25-30 minutes when i get home from the gym can't do cardio and then come back eat breakfast at 3 pm and then take my meds *wink* *wink*

 

Cheers

 

:cheers:

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

Last time I check Homer's way got them to game 6 of the Stanely Cup finals.

Last time I checked Homer's way has lead to 12 years of hockey mediocrity.  12 years of trying to fix two-year problems with seven-year contracts.  12 years of trying to have their cake (retool) and eat it too (compete). 

 

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

Bottom line there are many ways to do it see Tampa Bay they didn't tear it all down and are trying to 3 peat.

Tampa drafted 1st, 2nd, 6th, 27th, 10th and 3rd in consecutive years.  Also, where were the 7 year contracts to UFAs they signed during the time they were building their team?  They signed guys to 1-3 year contracts at lower money while they drafted well and made shrewd trades and re-signed the players they wanted to keep.  They didn't sign Kevin Hayes because they needed a C to babysit Nolan Patrick for a year.

Edited by SCFlyguy
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4 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

 

This is the rub with the team isn't it?

There is not ZOMG! talent coursing through the system.

But there are a lot of low ceiling high floor players, that, if they play with structure could create a team with 4 similar lines.

With similar attributes, maybe the battles on the top two lines are losses or break-evens but then the bottom 2 lines are wins...

 

In the Podcast (snow the goalie) around 35 minutes is where SanFillippo starts with the line-up/ potential moves. 

It was interesting.

If Trotz can institute a culture then maybe the team as it *could be* would be competitive enough to at least watch, the scouting, drafting and development will still need to improve. There has been money and talent? invested in those areas this year. When those investments bear fruit, who knows? 

Still, it was the first non-team affiliated columnist that plausibly explained how the coaching hire could affect all the other systems in ways that would not be 5 more years of terrible on ice results. 

 

 

I don't see where the guy arguing with Bizz on TNT is fixing all the bad on the Flyers.

 

SanFillippo is in on Trotz, I wouldn't be out. If the "blank check" statement is true... It could work.

I see your point. And I do believe Trotz could raise the level of play and work with the players in the system to maximize them but, as you said, lots of average 3rd and 4th line talent, not a lot of high end talent coming. 

So the thing is, do you want us raised up a little so we pick 10th, 11th, something like that each year, or tear it down completely, be near the bottom, but amass high end talent and after a few years have the potential to be actually good? That's what it comes down to. 

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2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I'm hoping picking up half of his salary should do it to a Yotes team or Kraken team or anywhere with cap space but JVR at a 3.5 mill cap hit should attractive to some team if not then yeah i guess buy him out.

 

 Possibly. 

 

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Yep every year is a loss when you don't win your last game of the year. And every team that gave up assets to swing for it loss assets it comes with the business...as i just stated Joe Sakic has been doing it "your way" keeping 1st and 2nd round draft picks and well are still as Cupless as Homer's way since the 2010 way.

 

 I'm gonna go out on a limb here...I think Sakic is a hell of a lot closer to a cup than Fletch and Homer. He also has, arguably, the 2nd best player in the NHL, the most exciting defenceman in the league, one of the best RWers in the league, one of the best LWers (all drafted and developed by Colorado) and one of the best 2nd line Cs. And, one of the best prospect pools in the entire league. So their window stays open for years.

 

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Can't say my crystal ball is in the shop getting a tune up.

 

But also Tampa Bay didn't tear it down they got rid of there old aging stars and kept drafting and developing and they won the Cup with a mix of draft picks and free agents and trades.

 

 How many cups do Tampa win without #1 pick Steven Stamkos? #2 pick Victor Hedman? 2nd rounder (oh we can just throw those away) Nikita Kucherov? Drafted and developed Brayden Point/Alex Killorn/Ondrej Palat/Anthony Cerelli or 19th overall pick Vasilefsky? Ok, so their top 7 scorers, their #1 goalie, #1 D #1 C #1 RW #1 LW are ALL drafted by Tampa. So how many cups? None. Their team was built through drafting, and then spots were filled in with FAs and trades. Fletcher and Homer try to build through FA and trades, and fill in with whatever draft picks they don't trade away. How can you not see this?

 

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

So why can't JG be a key part of a Cup win in 3 years???

 

 When he's 31 making $10 mil a year with Haysee as his leader? You for real?

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Tampa didn't draft Pat Maroon, Tyler Johnson, Erik Cernak, Coleman, Schenn, Mcdonagh, Sergachev, Goodrow, Bogosian, Rutta, Coburn, Stehpens and Verhaeghe.

 

And they didn't like do it and build it in a year they stayed comepetitive and went on runs and failed first before getting it right. 

 

 Those are all secondary players. They didn't build their team around those guys. Most of them are disposable...meaning you could replace them if they ask for too much. 

 

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

And rightfully so but you have to hold out that they change....what else is there??

 

 

Lucky bastage is that your way of asking for my address...

 

...my glaucoma is acting up...

 

...about to go on my walk in my neighborhood (always walk for about 25-30 minutes when i get home from the gym can't do cardio and then come back eat breakfast at 3 pm and then take my meds *wink* *wink*

 

Cheers

 

:cheers:

 

 

 

 

 PM me. :toast:

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@GrittyForever

it comes down to, can the team compete and build simultaneously?

Teams have been doing it. It will take some time and pain. 

I do think getting the coach right is a large part of solving that puzzle.

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1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

@GrittyForever

it comes down to, can the team compete and build simultaneously?

Teams have been doing it. It will take some time and pain. 

I do think getting the coach right is a large part of solving that puzzle.

 

Phillys been trying to do just that for....47 years. Almost there.

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24 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Phillys been trying to do just that for....47 years. Almost there.

No. This isn't true. 

 

When was the last time the PHI organization had a strong farm team?

 

I can tell you it was the 80s in Hershey. 

The Phantoms have been **** for decades now.

You know who has great farm teams?

TBL, CAR, LAK, MIN

 

PHI has neglected player development for too long and we're "reaping" that benefit. 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

When was the last time the PHI organization had a strong farm team?

They won the Calder Cup in 1998 and 2005...

 

They've been trying to build, compete and find the right coach for decades.  Unfortunately, incompetence among the front office has gotten in the way of that far too often.  And, that's only continuing in the present.

 

Have the Syracuse Crunch won the Calder?  I guess I missed that one...

Have the Ontario Reign?

Have the Iowa Wild?

Edited by FireDillabaugh
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14 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

No. This isn't true. 

 

When was the last time the PHI organization had a strong farm team?

 

I can tell you it was the 80s in Hershey. 

The Phantoms have been **** for decades now.

You know who has great farm teams?

TBL, CAR, LAK, MIN

 

PHI has neglected player development for too long and we're "reaping" that benefit. 

 

 

 

 

 

As mentioned, when Richards/Carter were on the farm they won. They also went to a cup with those two 1st round Flyer picks. Then traded them away. 

 

You're not wrong that they've neglected the farm though. Like their big brother, the Phantoms stink too.

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7 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

PHI has neglected player development for too long and we're "reaping" that benefit. 

 

idk if it's that. I think really it's just poor drafting. 

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13 hours ago, FireDillabaugh said:

They won the Calder Cup in 1998 and 2005...

 

They've been trying to build, compete and find the right coach for decades.  Unfortunately, incompetence among the front office has gotten in the way of that far too often.  And, that's only continuing in the present.

 

Have the Syracuse Crunch won the Calder?  I guess I missed that one...

Have the Ontario Reign?

Have the Iowa Wild?

Who do you want them to hire for head coach?

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13 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

As mentioned, when Richards/Carter were on the farm they won. They also went to a cup with those two 1st round Flyer picks. Then traded them away. 

 

You're not wrong that they've neglected the farm though. Like their big brother, the Phantoms stink too.

Richards/Carter was a clear picture of how management coddled players. They should have been staples to build around, leading to a SC. 

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20 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Last time I checked Homer's way has lead to 12 years of hockey mediocrity. 

 

Maybe i am looking somewhere else but i swear Ron Hextall was in there somewhere but it is all on Homer right??

 

20 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Tampa drafted 1st, 2nd, 6th, 27th, 10th and 3rd in consecutive years. 

 

Sure is that Homer's fault too??  Sure Homer and Hextall failed to build around Giroux and Jake.

 

20 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Also, where were the 7 year contracts to UFAs they signed during the time they were building their team?

 

Ryan Mcdonagh says hello!

 

20 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

They didn't sign Kevin Hayes because they needed a C to babysit Nolan Patrick for a year.

 

And sure they missed on both and noone knew Patrick would have the injury luck he had - well except i'm sure you knew it but they failed to call and ask your advice.

 

Homer turned the team around after the draft they landed JVR and took the to the Cup and had way more playoff wins than Hextall.

 

Homer's biggest mistep was getting rid of his star centers and and bring Bryz in but from reports was forced to go sign a playoff goalie which yes i won't argue he choose poorly.

 

Still doesn't change the fact that Tampa didn't tear it all down and rebuild it to get where they are today. 

 

Which was my point. And the Avs didn't either and they drafted there way to where they are and yet still haven't won squat.

 

So as i said again there are multiple ways to build a winner. I am hoping the Flyers call you this offseason to find guidance because i don't want another season like i just witnessed.

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7 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Sure Homer and Hextall failed to build around Giroux and Jake.

 

Trying to build around the two of them was the mistake in the first place...

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18 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

So their window stays open for years.

 

Yeah it may say something but McKinnon is going on his 10th season and yet still hasn't won squat.

 

18 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

How many cups do Tampa win without #1 pick Steven Stamkos? #2 pick Victor Hedman?

 

Hey i can't help the fact the Flyer's have the worst luck when it comes to them utilizing their two #2 overall picks...maybe they built the arena on an Indian burial ground or something.

 

18 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

When he's 31 making $10 mil a year with Haysee as his leader?

 

C'mon stop it Johnny ain't signing for 10 mill a season. And Hayes i think will be gone after next season.

18 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Their team was built through drafting, and then spots were filled in with FAs and trades.

 

Yeah i said this it takes the right mix but you don't JUST draft your way to a Cup.

 

Once again i said it takes drafting and free agency and trading. 

 

Flyers have good key pieces but they need to continue to build around them.

 

But it may all not even matter if they don't get the coach right.

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1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

Trying to build around the two of them was the mistake in the first place...

 

Well Hextall is the one who gave Jake his contract. So they should have just moved them both??

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Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well Hextall is the one who gave Jake his contract. So they should have just moved them both??

 

And I've been very critical of Hextall for it.

 

The Flyers bet a decade on an aggressive retool by winning the trades and building around the VeeGees.

 

They lost.

 

Time for an aggressive retool!

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2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

And I've been very critical of Hextall for it.

 

The Flyers bet a decade on an aggressive retool by winning the trades and building around the VeeGees.

 

They lost.

 

Time for an aggressive retool!

 

I would have kept Giroux and traded Jake.

 

But i guess that shipped has sailed, felt weird watching Giroux set up the game winning goal last night.

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8 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Trying to build around the two of them was the mistake in the first place...

In the beginning it looked good. Then jake went all jake and, well, there you go

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9 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Hey i can't help the fact the Flyer's have the worst luck when it comes to them utilizing their two #2 overall picks...maybe they built the arena on an Indian burial ground or something.

This is where you lose me. I don't think it was bad luck. I lay this squarely on them. 

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1 minute ago, CoachX said:

This is where you lose me. I don't think it was bad luck. I lay this squarely on them. 

 

Yeah sure they maybe should have traded back on both but you know we have hindsight.

 

But in the Patrick draft i wanted Heiskanen anyways....so i would have missed on Makar too.

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