Snider is dragging this team down

[InHexyWeTrust]

it's not that snider and co could not see pronger's age interfering at some point.... they were clearly circumventing the cap. the big oopsie was not realizing his contract would be an over 35. before that... it seemed everything was going according to plan... muhahaha.

so that is a mistake. who's fault was it? homer or snider? that one looks like it's on homer. are we ready to get out our pitchforks and stakes and run him out of town? i'm not, i think he's done a good job overall... everyone makes mistakes. let's hope he doesn't make a huge one like that again.

however, to your point, prongs was showing very little signs of slowing down. his injuries are ones that could end a player at ANY age's career. he was still playing a very, consistently i might add, high level of play right up to his injury.

Pronger's injury will probably take us right out of the 'cap hell' we would've otherwise been committed to. Pronger's career looks finished. But I'm sure he'll be happy to keep drawing salary and letting us put him on the LTIR and take the cap exemption for the rest of his contract--just like Rathje and Lappy. That being said, the Pronger trade was a good move. Sbisa looks like he's going to become a pretty impressive NHLer and Lupul is having a ridiculous season after a few disappointing ones, but we got two games from the Cup with Pronger and wouldn't have without him. No complaints there.

[Mad Dog]

@Bakanekimiwa

I hear what you are saying about him wanting to win, and that's probably the only reason I am cutting him *some* slack. But I begin to agree with Aziz that everything points in a direction of Snider looking at nothing but the numbers when ordering Homer to pull a trigger on Bryzgalov.

I don’t have proof, but I am willing to bet that the Flyers hardly spent any time scouting Bryzgalov, because if they did, they would’ve realized, as painful as the last playoffs were, they could do at least not worse by going in a different direction. They most definitely did not do much of scouting because Snider didn’t want to risk losing Bryzgalov to another team. He thought high enough of the guy to not only make him an equitable, bit worse yet, succumbing to *his* outrageous demands (because this is what I call this contract).

Yes, I agree, that it’s easy to look smart now and say, “I told you so”. But while no one could expect him to be this bad, doing even some surficial evaluation would’ve led to the conclusion that Bryzgalov simply was not worth that much money over such a beyond ridiculous length. It’s insane. It was clearly a hurried, spur-of-the-moment, reactionary move which not only handcuffed the organization for God only knows how many years now, but also hampered a growth of what could be a solid young goaltender (Bob).

As to the question whether it was Snider or Homer, I believe Rad (in a different thread) clipped an excerpt of a column which proves it was all Snider and Homer simply carried out the orders. He needs to step back and just let his GM run the business or, if he feels his GM is incompetent, engage a competent GM. But the degree to which he interferes borders on insane. He has to realize that he’s doing more disservice to the franchise that he loves so much.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Mad Dog

[JackStraw]

@Mad Dog - http://articles.philly.com/2011-06-22/sports/29690025_1_salary-cap-ed-snider-ilya-bryzgalov

[Mad Dog]

@Mad Dog - http://articles.phil...-ilya-bryzgalov

Yep.... And I love this:

"It had to be done," Snider told the Daily News, just after arriving here for tonight's NHL Awards show at The Palms Casino and Resort. "I was part of making it happen. It was hard to sit there and watch the Stanley Cup final, knowing what [Tim] Thomas was doing for Boston.

Exactly what "had to be done", Ed? And did he actually try to compare Bryzgalov to Tim Thomas?

What better demonstrations are needed that this is exactly why an owner should not be making these kinds of decicions.

[JackStraw]

Yep.... And I love this:

"It had to be done," Snider told the Daily News, just after arriving here for tonight's NHL Awards show at The Palms Casino and Resort. "I was part of making it happen. It was hard to sit there and watch the Stanley Cup final, knowing what [Tim] Thomas was doing for Boston.

Exactly what "had to be done", Ed? And did he actually try to compare Bryzgalov to Tim Thomas?

What better demonstrations are needed that this is exactly why an owner should not be making these kinds of decicions.

It's also worth noting that Snider wooed Bryz before the team was even permitted to sign him. So it wasn't as if Snider came in late to seal the deal, he got in early and set things in motion for Homer to finish up.

[Podein25]

@Mad Dog - ok, ok, you've convinced me. Can we stop with the purple text now? jk

[Mad Dog]

@Mad Dog - ok, ok, you've convinced me. Can we stop with the purple text now? jk

But I can't use your favorite (sheep) color (white), because.... well.... white on white = zero visibility. lol

[aziz]

[Podein25]

@Mad Dog - hmmm, good point

@aziz - I've actually seen that movie. Terrifying.

[flyerrod]

LMAO...Pods and rux will both be having nightmares for weeks....

[canoli]

not only handcuffed the organization for God only knows how many years now, but also hampered a growth of what could be a solid young goaltender (Bob).

and imo that is the worst part about the deal. Even if Bryzgalov was playing up to expectations this year it sealed Bob's fate as a Flyer - limited starts as a backup all but guarantees an up n down year for him, inhibiting his development, the end result being a goalie who appears as if he'll never be "ready." Worse yet his value on the market is diminished. Way to go Ed.

Backup goalie is maybe the hardest job in the NHL - to be good at it takes an unbelievable amount of mental and physical preparation. Never mind any technical flaws, which he'll rarely get to work on in game situations, he's got to be incredibly confident and disciplined over the course of the season. The demands on a backup are intense, which is why there are so few good ones. To stick Bob (or any young goalie who's shown promise) in that role is not only sheer stupidity it's also a blatant FU to the goalie in question. You think Bob hasn't been seething inside this year? I bet he has, which of course only makes his job - the job of preparing himself - even harder.

I know someone will say "that's how young goalies earn their time, earn their #1 status (if they ever make it)." I can't deny that, I'm only saying it's a bad way to handle Bob, particularly Bob. He showed tremendous potential in his rookie season, winning games without even speaking English (seriously). Ed and Co. overlooked all that so they could say "See Fans, we Did Something about it!" after the PO fiasco.

Great. So now we're stuck with Bryzgalov and that idiot contract, which is the definition of a Lose::Lose, for Bob and for the Flyers. The only way to make it a "win" is for Bryzgalov to deliver the Cup to Philadelphia. Does anyone think that's even a remote possibility? This year, next year, any year? Right. Me too.

So I think back to last season... late Oct through Nov when Bob won all those games - then his good run in January through the TD...yes after that the wins became scarce - not coincidentally it's also when the team .... ah forget it I've typed it too many times already

preaching to the choir here I know - but man did we screw ourselves with this Bryzgalov deal - even if he ever does start to play well.

[Vanflyer]

@Hexy27-

"Sbisa looks like he's going to become a pretty impressive NHLer "

To me he is still just potential. He still is a 5/6 d-man there, which is fine for a 22 y/o. But in the end it is jut potential. Fowler has completely leaped frogged over Sbisa and is on the #1 pairing there now.

[BearOnIce]

I know the guy is passionate and wants to win. There is no denying that. But his level of interefering for years not only generated no results, but created some serious fall-backs and issues in team's progress.

I just can't imagine what possibly went through his old brain when deciding to sign this stiff Bryzgalov to 9 years (shaking my head) and burden the cap. Pronger is another mistake. As important and tenaceous as the guy is, how could Snider not see him being on the decline? How could this not be anticipated?

Look no further than the Sixers (which, to my knowledge, Snider also meddled with despite a popular belief that he was only inerested in the Flyers). As soon as he sold the team, the new owners took the franchise in a different (i.e., positive) direciton and the team is enjoying its first winning season in a long time.

I really feel as long as the Old Man owns the team, the Flyers are basically doomed. I just hope Comcast curbs his enthusiams a little and just asks him to let his GM do what the GM is supposed to do. But that ain't happening, most likely.

MD:

All your points are correct, accurate, and laser focused right on.

Let me add that as long as Bob Clark has an office in the Wells Fargo Center, there will be continued interference to add.

Holmgren may have the GM position but I seriously question wheither any move of any significance gets agreed upon or done other than as a Homgren-Snider-Clark Triad.

Philadelphia - City of Brotherly Love And Ultimate Sports Homerism.

BOI

[Mad Dog]

@canoli

Bryzgalov deal will go down as one of the worst deals in the NHL history - mark my word. I can't see that clown immensely improving his game. He will likely start playing OK, but he will never be playing up to the expectations Snider had for him.

I just can't see how people can even argue about this blunder. The only hope is that under the new CBA teams *may* be able to do something to lose these types of contract, or at least get a partial releif. If not, boy....... aren't we ****ed for years.

edit: Digity - I didn't realize there is sensoring on this site.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Mad Dog

[doom88]

Yeah, it's definitely a bad contract, but I don't know about worst ever category. We'll see where the cap goes in the fall, as that will likely frame things in perspective.

[canoli]

I think it's definitely "one of the worst ever." There have been some doozies over the years like DiPietro's 15 (!) years but Ed/Homer signing a 2nd-rate goalie who, even if he'd been playing to expectations is still not worth saddling the team to for 9 years. When "9 years" is the only way to get it done you have to walk away. There are maybe 20 guys in the NHL I'd want to keep that long and none of them are goalies. Goaltending is just too unpredictable.

Not to mention...this past summer was absolutely the dumbest time to go "all in" on a goalie considering what Bob showed us his rookie year. Whatever you think of Bob, factoring in the years, the cap hit and the play of Bryzgalov, rolling with Bob this year would've been the better move. I'd say the same even if Bryzgalov was playing well.

Edited March 4, 2012 by canoli

[Mad Dog]

I think it's definitely "one of the worst ever." There have been some doozies over the years like DiPietro's 15 (!) years but Ed/Homer signing a 2nd-rate goalie who, even if he'd been playing to expectations is still not worth saddling the team to for 9 years. When "9 years" is the only way to get it done you have to walk away. There are maybe 20 guys in the NHL I'd want to keep that long and none of them are goalies. Goaltending is just too unpredictable.

And you know... as dumb as DiPietro contract was, at least DiPietro showed that he was capable of carrying the load. He had several rather successful season but the reality is: he had no shot to do much with that beyond pathetic organization. The Islanders were - and probably still are - an absolute disgrace of a professional team. DiPietro had a better track record. I know many people would probably dismiss that but he was a Team's USA #1 goalie in 2006 Winter Olympics. And more importantly - something that's less quantifiable, of course - he is just a better goalie that Bryzgalov, and that, to me, is not even debatable. He plays the puck more aggressively, he has better instincts, he doesn't usually leave huge rebounds, and he *is* the type of a goalie who is capable of winning games on his own. But again, playing behind one of the consistently terrible franchise for years, coupled with just bad luck with injuries, tremendously skews his stats and just an overall perception.

Bryzgalov has none of that, frankly. He folded like a cardboard box in the playoffs last year. He didn't give his Phoenix team even a slightest chance to win a single game. He arrived here, in Philly, with expectations to carry the team. Not only he didn't carry the team, he was plain horrid so far with maybe several games where he only OK. I am willing to give everything I've got that in a similar situation DiPietro would be absolutely fantastic with the Flyers and against Detroit last year. Of course, I have nothing to back it up with other than just my hunch, but the point is, DiPietro's stupid contract is at least partially justifiable. He was clearly the best player that team had at the time he has gotten the contract. The Islanders wanted to make him the face of the franchise for years and build around him. Clearly, the longevity was stupid, but the intent was sane.

The Flyers, on the other hand, had no rational substantiation of giving the goalie with a totally unproven track record such a ludicrous contract. I am trying to rationalize Snider’s decision, and no matter from what angle I am looking at it, there was no good reason to do what he has done. It was clear, from eth beginning, that the Flyers targeted Bryzgalov way before July 1 free agency even opened, and started “working” him. They brought him over for the tour to Philly to show the sightseeing and “better areas” to get him sold on coming here. They wanted him and they wanted him bad. Why?????? They acted like they were trying to lure the second coming of Martin Brodeur.

That was a miscalculation, a blunder, a professional gaffe of a dramatic, monumental proportion. Factor in the fact that they had a decent, promising - albeit not a brilliant – young kid goalie in the system who they worked very hard to develop last year, and this decision is borderline criminal. And the most depressing news is that there is no easy way out of this. At least with Pronger there is a chance they can somehow lose his contract, but I just can’t see what they can do about this one. And I don’t see Bryzgalov getting much better. He will likely play better, sure….. But he proved to me that he is not a savior, not the premiere goalie who will win you games and playoff series – not even close.

Just about every single crappy goalie we had so far… as bad as they were…. won games and won at least one playoff series on their own. They gave the team a chance. Bryzgalov didn’t and won’t. No way, no how.

A faux pas at its best if you ask me.

[mojo1917]

@Mad Dog

while i agree with a great deal of your post, i do think with regard to Bryzgalov "folding" in the playoffs, the coyotes were so overmatched he wasn't the reason phoenix didn't advance. they were outclassed in everyway by a superior team. you can, however, argue that if not for his steady good play in the regular season they don't even make the playoffs.

it would be disingenous for you to say "you saw this coming" no one thought he'd suck this badly.

as for 9 years, throwing Bob under the bus, no contest, the organization f'ed up big time.

[Mad Dog]

@Mad Dog

while i agree with a great deal of your post, i do think with regard to Bryzgalov "folding" in the playoffs, the coyotes were so overmatched he wasn't the reason phoenix didn't advance.

He wasn't. But............. his performance in that series was very reminiscent of his performance so far in this season. He didn't have a single game in that series where he had a wow-type performance, the perfroance which could've given teh Wings a reason to think taht maybe Bryzgalov is the reason why they have to start taking that Phoenix team seriously.

Example: last playoffs, the Sabres were in over their head with the Flyers in the first series. Yet Ryan Miller won 2 games on his own and kept them in some other games. That series should've been a sweep - that's how badly the Sabres were outmatched by the Flyers.

And that's how you judge your goalie. A premiere goalie gives his team a chance to win, no matter how pitiful the team is. If your goalie shines and steals a good deal of games, you have a fighting chance to win. That's all you can ask of your goalie. Bryzgalov doesn't have it in him; I am all but convinced of that by now.

[aziz]

i do think with regard to Bryzgalov "folding" in the playoffs, the coyotes were so overmatched he wasn't the reason phoenix didn't advance

he didn't give them a chance, though. the coyotes actually battled back against the wings time and again, but bryzgalov kept giving up backbreakers to shots bantam goalies would be expected to stop. in those four games, he looked exactly like he has looked this season. they were the warning sign to everyone about how bad he could be...though even the most cynical person didn't think he could perform at that terrible level for half a season.

obviously, these don't capture the flow of the game, but the goals themselves....very few were good goals:

[Podein25]

I watched much of that series @aziz and I don't need to watch those vids to agree with you. I've made the point myself.

However, what I find most interesting about those games is how they exemplify the fragile relationship between a goalie's confidence and that of the team. They are related. I can totally see from Bryz's body language there, and this season with us, how a team would just quit on him (c.f. Meszaros rolling his eyes).

As it turns out, Bryz's struggles this year consitute an enormous resiliency test for the team. If they can come through this, intact, with him playing decently (fingers crossed), it could bode well. Do you know what I mean? It's a what-doesn't-kill-you-make-you-stronger kind of thing.

Anyway, my 2 cents....

[Bakanekimiwa]

I watched much of that series @aziz and I don't need to watch those vids to agree with you. I've made the point myself.

However, what I find most interesting about those games is how they exemplify the fragile relationship between a goalie's confidence and that of the team. They are related. I can totally see from Bryz's body language there, and this season with us, how a team would just quit on him (c.f. Meszaros rolling his eyes).

As it turns out, Bryz's struggles this year consitute an enormous resiliency test for the team. If they can come through this, intact, with him playing decently (fingers crossed), it could bode well. Do you know what I mean? It's a what-doesn't-kill-you-make-you-stronger kind of thing.

Anyway, my 2 cents....

i completely agree with you podes... call the police. but, one could make a pretty convincing argument that bryz's problems in the playoffs last year have carried over to his new team. it's also not impossible that he could turn it around and play like the goalie he was to get the coyotes to the playoffs in the first place.

i've seen crazier things happen... all we can do is sit back and hope. lately he's been good... that's a start. i was a fan on the bryz deal(the getting him, not the actual deal) and then i soured on him like anyone else. but, enough is enough... i'm getting tired of it. it's sports... last year was last year. athletes need to have short term memories... and from what i gather from bryz.. he seems to be a short term memory guy, if you know what i mean.

he can turn it around.. and i hope he does before the playoffs.

[aziz]

they exemplify the fragile relationship between a goalie's confidence and that of the team. They are related.

it's a worrying thing, though, because they don't have to be. frankly, the bruins were a bad team at points during last season's playoff run, thomas took that and stepped up, turned things around. there is a weird disconnect between a goalie and his teammates, they can see themselves playing two seperate games. a team that is playing poorly can still have a goalie that takes it upon himself to not worry about the scoreboard but to represent himself well, get his own personal win, and maybe that is enough to give his guys the chance to claw their way back. and similarly, a team can step past a goalie that isn't giving them a shot and at do what they can on the scoreboard...like that winnipeg game several months ago.

the fact that bryzgalov is so closely tied to the confidence level of his team....that worries me. a team that stumbles could really use a goalie who can ignore it and be confident in his own game. that's kind of the definition of a difference making goalie. if bryzgalov is going to collapse when the team collapses...i dunno. not good. you'd really like a guy who operates on a bit of an opposite harmonic, you know?

now isn't the time for my cynicism, though. bryzgalov has looked tight for several games now, the team carried on past some serious setbacks roster-wise tonight, two wins in a row for the first time in 7 weeks (something boston still can't say), things look as good as they reasonably can all things said. another good outting on tuesday, and i'll start to get downright bullish on things down the stretch.

[mojo1917]

@aziz

you know your youtube playlist carries a lot more weight if you then don't say this...

you'd really like a guy who operates on a bit of an opposite harmonic, you know?

just sayin'.

Bryz stunk the joint up in the playoffs last year , i believe i have even said as much, but that phx team wasn't going to beat the wings they could play it 100 times and the wings win 99.

he's been good for about 2 weeks now, maybe it is the black pads who knows, he won that game vs washington. which was something we didn't see at all last year.

[aziz]