Trade Talk Flyers need to trade draft picks or top prospect for a top young dman

[brelic]

I can't see Timonen being moved until Timonen decides he wants to be traded.

Timonen having a No Movement Clause, one year left on what could very likely be his last deal and, as you note, a favorable impression with management.

Luckily we're down to just five NMC/NTC's on the roster...

For Kimmo, it would only make sense being traded to a contender. Could be a smart move for both sides. Of course, most contenders are a cap strapped as we are so it doesn't seem to be a likely scenario at this point.

[EightyEight]

I trade nothing at all. Stick with what I got and look at the draft for my next dman via drafting or trade. If I'm the gm right now draft picks are golden in this draft. It's listed as deeper then 03

I think staying put for once may actually be the better choice. Let's face it, Pronger playing is a big maybe; who know how many games he'll play this year. Snider is quick to try and fix what's broken but in reality downgrades another position that needs fixing. It makes sense to be patient and develop home-grown players from the draft. Quick fixes haven't worked out for them in 45 years.

[Mad Dog]

I can't see Timonen being moved until Timonen decides he wants to be traded.

Timonen having a No Movement Clause, one year left on what could very likely be his last deal and, as you note, a favorable impression with management.

Luckily we're down to just five NMC/NTC's on the roster...

Timonen has been a class act and a true warrior his whole career. But I don't know if you remember, but when Homer signed him 5 years ago (was it 5 years ago?), Kimo asked a pointed question: how long the rebuild will last, hinting at the fact that he didn't really feel like being a part of a rebuilding franchise for too long. Snider and Homer re-assured him, at that point, that it wasn';t going to take long at all and they were going to put together a competative roster.

The point is, he's been patient. But I am sure his patience has been pretty much pushed to the limit at this point. He is not getting younger and he won't be playing hockey for much longer. I read this summer in one of the local papers that he voiced his urgency to win. He wants to win. He wants to win BAD.

I have no doubt if the right deal comes along to move him to the contender, he will wave his NMC/NTC. Maybe reluctantly, but he'll wave it.

[radoran]

I have no doubt if the right deal comes along to move him to the contender, he will wave his NMC/NTC. Maybe reluctantly, but he'll wave it.

No question. I just really don't see that realistically happening.

As was pointed out, with all the cap implications on the contenders, the "right move" becomes very difficult to conceive of, much less find a reason for doing. His "actual cost" goes down over the season, but teams still need to fit under the overall annual cap.

There are also no real clear-cut "contenders" (there are a lot of "nagannas") to make such a move meaningful to him. He's already on an accepted "contender."

Yes, my Flyers shirt has 44 TIMONEN on the back of it, but if the right deal came along, I'd say "go!"

[brelic]

Timonen has been a class act and a true warrior his whole career. But I don't know if you remember, but when Homer signed him 5 years ago (was it 5 years ago?), Kimo asked a pointed question: how long the rebuild will last, hinting at the fact that he didn't really feel like being a part of a rebuildin, that it wasn';t going to take long at all and they were going to put together a competative roster.

The point is, he's been patient. But I am sure his patience has been pretty much pushed to the limit at this point. He is not getting younger and he won't be playing hockey for much longer. I read this summer in one of the local papers that he voiced his urgency to win. He wants to win. He wants to win BAD.

I have no doubt if the right deal comes along to move him to the contender, he will wave his NMC/NTC. Maybe reluctantly, but he'll wave it.

Good point MD. To be fair though, they did rebuild quickly and were within two wins of a Cup. So they held up their end of the bargain. But at this point, I agree with you that he would waive for a contender. He'd have a better chance elsewhere I think.

But I would hate to see him go.

[jammer2]

I'm against any type of trade that gives up future assets for a defensive upgrade. This is why we have kids like Bourdon and Marshall hanging around. Throw them in the fire and see what they have before you make any type of foolish reactionary move. Bordon looked impressive during his last stint, let's see what the hell he has when playing top 6 minutes in the NHL. Walker should also be in this mix, that's why smart teams stockpile d-men, so they don't get raped when having a spike in injuries. I'm not in favour of giving up any first round picks.....or any other assets.

The other thing I wanted to say on this topic...there is another reason to play the kids right now.....when Pronger comes back he should play NO back to backs and have his ice time limited so he's fresh for the playoffs. This necessitates breaking in a kid anyways (or at least Walker)....we need to see if these kids can play, for more than just a fill in for Pronger during the injury, we need insurance against Pronger getting re-injured once he comes back. I think Bourdon can provide that, along with a nice physical presence that we are short on.

[mojo1917]

But I don't know if you remember, but when Homer signed him 5 years ago (was it 5 years ago?), Kimo asked a pointed question: how long the rebuild will last, hinting at the fact that he didn't really feel like being a part of a rebuilding franchise for too long.

and in reality he wasn't, he's been to the playoffs every year but that first one, has played in the ecf and cup finals... he's been right there , a break here or there and his name is on the cup, winning the damn thing isn't easy and the flyers have had their chances in kimo's time here. so in that regard homer did him solid, i like 44 and would rather see him stay in philly and retire a champion, but i'd move him if it means acquiring a cornerstone guy in some combination in return.

[RonJeremy]

Reply to jammers post.... I agree the Bourdon has looked good and plays a much needed physical game and should get a good amount of ice time while Prongs is out. You said you wouldnt give up future assets for a defensive upgrade... What about trading from a source of strength our offense, to upgrade the defense. Bourdon at best is a #4, more likely a 5th or 6th defenseman. Pronger is a # 1 guy, who is breaking down and old. Pronger is our PP QB ,best defensively and most physical, so Bourdoncanhelp in one area, but we still need a true #1 guy soon.

So if we could get a top young dman for a top young forward like Schenn, would you do it? I like Schenn and would love to keep him, but being realistic, we are not going toget a top 2 young dman without giving up something of equal value. The problem we face is our 2 best dmen are also our oldest, any dman we draft wont be NHL ready for 2 years or so and most dmen dont make much of an impact until their second or third year in the league. The Flyers have not had much luck in drafting dmen and we dont get to pick all that high in the draft either.

[aziz]

The problem we face is our 2 best dmen are also our oldest, any dman we draft wont be NHL ready for 2 years or so and most dmen dont make much of an impact until their second or third year in the league.

well, here's the problem. a *few* guys come in and make an impact in their second or third year, but really, most bets are off until you see the guy in his late 20's. defensively consistent leader-type dmen...you just can't tell until it's there, you know? you can look at the talent and poise of a forward early and project him with some accuracy, but dmen....it's a tougher thing. not as tough as goalies, but still iffy enough that i hesitate to spend a lot on importing prospects. or even second/third year guys. i mentioned some guys before, but think back to 4 years ago or so, when mezsaros/phaneuf/bouwmeester were in their 2nd/3rd years. those were the future of stud #1 dmen in 2006. each of them are now seen as flawed and not suitable for a deep blueline to call their #1 guy. now think about trading what turned out to be an 80+point forward for one of them, straight up.

trading for defensive prospects, like goalies, doesn't solve problems. it just re-rolls the dice. if you really hate what you have now, by all means, go for the re-roll, but i don't think the flyers are there. carle, cobrun and meszaros are a good core beyond pronger and timmonen. yes, the flyers will someone need to step into that pronger-defensive leader roll before too long, and i don't know who that is...but i really am not sure a well-projected early-20's import is really the right call...and there'll be time for it down the road, anyway. frankly, i'm hoping pronger misses a good amount of time right now. both to make sure he really is back come march, and to create a temporary void for one of our current mid-20's defensemen to start to step into.

Edited December 2, 2011 by aziz

[Vanflyer]

As was pointed out, with all the cap implications on the contenders, the "right move" becomes very difficult to conceive of, much less find a reason for doing. His "actual cost" goes down over the season, but teams still need to fit under the overall annual cap.

Yes, but he could be moved at the Trade Deadline for considerable assets. I forget the math on it, but his cap hit to the team he is joining would not be his full salary. It would be prorate by games remaining. So a team would not be taking on his 6.33 m, but a % of that. Of course because he has one more year, the team would need to absorb that hit for the following season. If Kimmo goes anywhere, I would foresee it happening next year to a legitimate contender (assuming we are not one), if it is indeed to be his swan song.

I am also of the opinion that you don't chop off your healthy leg when your other leg is maim or crippled.

[Mad Dog]

The defense is a weakest part of this team; I think by now we all can agree on that. Pronger is already out. Lilja is also out (not atht it makes a even a tiny bit of a difference, but that's another body out of the lineup). Why weaken the defense even further? With Pronger out, it's crucial to have a veteran like Timonen, a calming voice in and off the ice..... the guy who just about everybody on the team looks up to. This defense is disorganized enough, and in some games looked plain lost. Now imagine Timonen been removed from the team. I can't even picture the effect that will have on how this team plays. I can see that being simply devastating.

Again, if the Flyers fall apart and freefall after the winter break with no playoff in sight, it's a different ballgame. Start the firesale with the next season in mind. But till that happens, I just don't see a reason for taking some drastic, dramatic measures that have been suggested over the last 2-3 days on this board (trading Bryzgalov, trading Timonen, trading Briere, trading Bob, etc.). See how this team plays before going to such an extreme.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Mad Dog

[doom88]

Let's wait and see with Bourdon. He is very young, and at a glance, looks like he might belong. If he does well over the next month, let's try our hand at developing a defenseman for once.

[flyercanuck]

@jammer2

I agree with your idea of not having Pronger play back to back games so he's fresh for the playoffs.

Actually, I'd like to carry that a step further. Might I suggest Pronger only play once a week so he's fresh for the 2016/17 season? ; )

[RonJeremy]

Nothing wrong withdeveloping Bourdon and some of our dmen, only problem is none of our dmen project as top 3 guys,and our top 2 guys are fading fast. Somehow, some way, we have to get some top 2 defensive talent and the only way I see it happening is by a trade. Unless we draft the next Ray Bourque, highly unlikely when your picking at the bottom most every year.

[jammer2]

@RonJeremy One of my big problems with Homer is over-reaction to perceived weakness, either due to depth or injuries. We hardly ever let a kid step in and give him a whirl....at least on defense. It's the regular season and the team is near the top of the Eastern conference, a perfect time to see what these kids have. If we spiral, sure....things have to be re-thought. I often wonder why we even draft these guys, most of them never get a sniff of the NHL. Buried behind NHL journeymen like Lilja or Baumgartner etc. I would not give up Schenn right now, admittedly he has not looked awe inspiring, but he is a talented piece of the puzzle. I don't think we could even get what he is worth right now as far as an established NHL d-man.....nor could we afford the cap space for an established d-man.....so it would be prospect for prospect in the harsh cap world....and that does not really fix the problem we have anyways. Stay the course, fill in with organizational depth and keep ALL our assets. Let Homer do what he does best, that's pluck young stars with our first round picks. Please, no Kurvers for Niedermeyer type deals....lol.

[OH1FlyersFan]

I'm not sure I trade JVR or Schenn. Especially when we have Danny winding down, Hartnell who can be spotty, Shelley who adds absolutely nothing, Simmonds who is mostly a role player, and Jagr who's playing great but is pushing 40+ years old. In my opinion, we still need guys like JVR and Schenn (despite the Couturier's and Giroux's we have on the team) more than we need a top D-man.....at this point. My instinct says to stand pat, see if Pronger can gut it out, and then take another look during the off-season. I totally agree we need to bolster the D at some point. But we actually have a couple of decent prospects in our own system we may be able to bring along soon. Let's look there first, this time. I wouldn't want to do anything rash too early. I think that's been Homer's mo and the results haven't always been the best.

[Bernie]

I would only be interested in trading Matt Carle for a RH younger defensemen such as Carle to Edmonton for Petry or Plante plus a pick; we then could trade a pick to Toronto for Franson or Ottawa for Lee to add to NHL ready younger defensemen. I would not trade any other assets at this time and wait through the injury to Pronger. This would allow us the most flexibility moving forward.

[mojo1917]

@OH1FlyersFan

i'm on record in this thread saying i'd dump just about any of the old guys for the right package, however right now after hearing that the bourdin and marshall pu-pu platter didn't stink the joint up on the west coast, i'm feeling like there's something to letting these young guys play. (i've said that somewhere too) . what i think people are rightly pointing out is none of the guys not named timmonen and pronger are future #1s they are maybe #2's, i'm looking at you Coburn, but there isn't a lead dog back on the blue line in this bunch. 20 can't be relied upon because of his luck with injuries and timmonen shouldn't be playing 28 minutes a night december through may and be expected to play to his usual excellent level,he's going to wear down. so i'm all for creative ideas to bring a weber, suter or some other guy in his prime to be the lead dog if that can be done without mortgaging the future then great !

Edited December 6, 2011 by mojo1917

[jammer2]

It's the perfect time to see what these kids have.....up their minutes and see how they respond. Injuries are opportunities to access organizational depth IMHO.

[aziz]

@mojo1917

what i think people are rightly pointing out is none of the guys not named timmonen and pronger are future #1s they are maybe #2's, i'm looking at you Coburn, but there isn't a lead dog back on the blue line in this bunch.

i don't know. each of coburn, carle and meszaros have been under pronger and timmonen's shadow for past few years, i'm not really sure it's time to place a cap on what they can be if asked to step forward. meszaros in particular seems like a guy who maybe could take a leadership spot on the blueline in the not too distant future. no, none of them are likely to be norris winners at any point, but then neither is timonen.

imo, the team's issues on defense have less to do with talent than organization. it's no secret laviolette focuses more on the offensive side of the blueline than the defensive, and i think we see the leaks that can cause. given the appropriate attention, i think the carle, coburn and meszaros are as good a core trio as you are likely to find.

[mojo1917]

@aziz

you make a good point regarding laviolette and his puck possession scheme being more focused on offense. with the prolonged absence of pronger; now would be a good time for one of these guys to step in to a leadership / responsibility shouldering position. so i reckon we'll see what they've got.