Kronwall hit on Voracek

[aziz]

no. kronwall doesn't jump.

[SpikeDDS]

exactly, it was a rough guideline, not actually part of the rule. it got mentioned enough that fans at some point decided it was the letter of the law and would define charges by that one single criteria.

now, the 3 steps has fallen out of favor, replaced by the left-his-skates thing. which, apparently, has been further refined into left-his-skates-fractions-of-a-second-before-contact.

Hey, if you want me to take back my acknowledgement that Kronwall's hit on Kesler was a charge because a fraction of a second shouldn't matter, well OK then. But the fact that he is airborne before contact is made seems to be important as that defines jumping which the video clearly associates with charging, does it not?

I understand your point about the 3 steps, but as you know there is no steps guideline in ANY of the disciplinary videos or in the official rules as they are writen now, otherwise I'm sure you would have alluded to that long before now in this discussion. If you are suggesting that it might be a good idea to return to that as part of the evaluation of a suspected charge, I'd go along with that. But it is not in the rules as they are now, nor is it in the official interpretation of those rules so it's irrelevant to the hit on Voracek. Not a bad suggestion, just not applicable to now.

By the way, three skate strides at high speed is a LONG way. Although I haven't actually counted, it doesn't take very much distance for Kronner to change from moving back toward the blue line until he steps into the hit. I'd just bet that on most of them he doesn't even take 3 strides. I could be wrong. But because at this point it is irrelevant, I'm not going to go back and count. You can if you like. Let me know what you find if you're really that interested. I'm not.

[SpikeDDS]

And all but the Kessler hit are AFTER contact RESULTING from the hit. Every one of those shots is after, not before. If you can't understand that force vectors on hits like this send the hitter's body up, I guess I the orange glasses are on and I won't be able to take them off. I'm glad Shanahan understands.

Look, we could go around and around on this one, but we're not going to agree. I'm gonna stop. It's been real.

Glad Voracek's OK. Glad HE thinks the hit belongs in the game (his words). You could learn a thing or two from him. If you want ot continue to argue about this hit, argue with Voracek. I'm done.

[aziz]

here, my counterpoint. this is the moment of impact on the hit on ericsson rinaldo was suspended for, left skate hasn't left the ice yet.

did shanaham screw this one up? rinaldo definitely left the ice (though not as high as kronwall tends to get), but it was after contact had been made. should that have been allowed?

like i've said, my perfect NHL is where kronwall's hit is A-OK. to me, it's up to voracek to protect himself...or not. and rinaldo's hit is fine, too, in this NHL of mine. my problem is the inconsistency. if rinaldo gets suspended for the above hit because he left the ice after making contact, then kronwall should, as well. but he won't be. kronwall would have to jump way in the air, put a very very obvious elbow right into the face of a player, step on the guy's arm after wards, and then tell the ref to go fcuk himself, all of it right in front of the camera's, and then tell the media after the game, "ha, pretty awesome, right"? to ever receive a suspension.

[aziz]

And all but the Kessler hit are AFTER contact RESULTING from the hit. Every one of those shots is after, not before. If you can't understand that force vectors on hits like this send the hitter's body up, I guess I the orange glasses are on and I won't be able to take them off. I'm glad Shanahan understands.

lol. kronwall has like 2 feet of air on some of those. yes, a check is going to result in players popping up, no question. but to look at this:

and say, "yes, that's force vectors,".....

only if one of those vector had an initial 45 degree upwards trajectory, buddy.

------------------------------

ok, we're done, though, i agree. i know i came off as a **** in this, it's kinda my specialty. sorry about that. you represented yourself and your team well, we just have some fundamental disagreements, and it's all good. i think kronwall receives special consideration from the league, for whatever reason...you don't. that's fine.

my now-passed on best friend was a wings fan, i even have a wings hat. great team, and by all accounts a first rate organization. good luck the rest of the way, if enough weird **** shakes out the right way, maybe we'll see you guys in june.

oh, and if the waiver draft ever comes back, here's to hoping kronwall goes unprotected and he can come to philly. i don't think his special suspension-waiver would survive the journey, but dude's a beast.

[SpikeDDS]

here, my counterpoint. this is the moment of impact on the hit on ericsson rinaldo was suspended for, left skate hasn't left the ice yet.

did shanaham screw this one up? rinaldo definitely left the ice (though not as high as kronwall tends to get), but it was after contact had been made. should that have been allowed?

like i've said, my perfect NHL is where kronwall's hit is A-OK. to me, it's up to voracek to protect himself...or not. and rinaldo's hit is fine, too, in this NHL of mine. my problem is the inconsistency. if rinaldo gets suspended for the above hit because he left the ice after making contact, then kronwall should, as well. but he won't be. kronwall would have to jump way in the air, put a very very obvious elbow right into the face of a player, step on the guy's arm after wards, and then tell the ref to go fcuk himself, all of it right in front of the camera's, and then tell the media after the game, "ha, pretty awesome, right"? to ever receive a suspension.

Last comment on this topic for me. I'm not going to talk about the Voracek hit, because I already said "I'm done," but I will comment on your Rinaldo submission.

I absolutely agree that this is a borderline charge. I think 2 games was too much. One would have been right in my mind. 2 things (well, if you count the more-than-three-skate-strides thing, three, but we won't go there, because as I said, irrelevant) make this a charge for me. One, Ericsson's head takes the brunt of the hit as compared with the rest of his body. But I agree that is questionable. Rinaldo does hit the shoulder. But if you watch how Ericsson's head snaps back and around in response to the hit it's more like a clip. Granted this is NOWHERE NEAR the head clips on Savard or even Boyes' hit.

But two, as Shanahan notes in the video, Rinaldo is 5 inches shorter than Ericsson. To get his shoulder to hit Ericsson's head he HAS to jump to do that. It's not like E had his head down looking for the puck. He'd already played it.) And, if you watch the actual video, and look at the stop-and-go of the video from the down-ice angle (not the one from the corner that you show) it shows and it highlights that Rinaldo's skates are already off the ice and his knees are fully extended before you can see video evidence of contact (Ericsson doesn't start rotating back and around until after that frame and certainly his head doesn't start snapping back yet for a few more frames, because Rinaldo first hits his shoulder before the head. I'd freeze it and post it, but I don't know how to do that like you did yours. How DO you do that, BTW? That would be helpful to know for future discussions.)

In my opinion, I think Shanahan's reasoning is sound enough to call it a charge, but I think 2 games was more than it should have been, and if I'm comparing Kronwall's charge on Kesler, I think Kronwall's deserved more than Rinaldo's but less than Ovechkin's on Michalek.

Thanks for your better response in for last. Sorry you lost your friend. Sounds like he and I would get along peas and carrots.

I live in the Atlanta area, now devoid of NHL hockey, which sucks. But back when the Thrashers were here, my favorite part of going to Red Wings games wasn't even seeing the game. My favorite part was going early--when the doors open--and watching the pre-game warm-ups with the other Detroit fans who all hang out by the visitor's tunnel and talk hockey for like an hour. It's so hard to find people around here who really know the game. I guess that's why I like these forums so much, especially since the days of seeing the Red Wings play in ATL are over. :-(

[terp]

no. kronwall doesn't jump.

Is Kronwell a hockey player or a basketball player? It's kind of hard to tell from these photos. I guess the skates are the thing that give it away.

[terp]

I'd just bet that on most of them he doesn't even take 3 strides.

One of the reasons strides are irrelevant is that guys who skate well don't have to take "strides" to generate speed. Especially if a skater is already in motion, one stride, even one backward stride (Kronwell) is more than enough to generate all the speed that's needed to deck someone into next month.

[five6four]

FWIW, Kerry Fraser had his take on this one (related to the Sarich hit on Hall), in his latest TSN blog:

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/kerry_fraser/?id=390862

[Vanflyer]

@five6four

Thanks for that link. He is what Fraser writes on the Kornball hit on Voracek (same thing all of us have been saying all along):

What I absolutely don't like on this hit by Niklas Kronwall is that Kronwall didn't just turn his back to make an exceptionally hard check on a vulnerable player but elevated his entire torso to the point that when contact was made both of Kronwall's skates were off the ice. By utilizing this elevation Voracek's head became the principle point of contact as Kronwall snuck a peek and drove his left shoulder into the jaw of Voracek. Voracek's hands reached for the sky as he lay on his back not knowing where he was in the moment.

By plain and simple definition this is an illegal check to the head as defined in rule 48; "A hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted."

If any minor alteration in body posture by Jakub Voracek immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit is used as a loop hole to avoid the penalty or further action, I say rubbish. The fact that Kronwall elevates and checks up with skates off the ice at impact demonstrates to me that the head area of Voracek was the intended target. (Even if it wasn't it became the principal point of contact).

This kind of checking culture must stop. Legal checks must be delivered below the neck of an opponent. Incidents such as this must be dealt with on a consistent basis on and off the ice.

All inconsistency does is create confusion! Wouldn't you agree "Signed Confused?"

[xganarchy]

at least us Flyers fans aren't the only ones who thought that Kronwall hit was "iffy", to say the least.

[terp]

@vaflyersfan

Thanks for posting that. The rationale is dead on...so what the **** is wrong with the league?

[Bakanekimiwa]

my god.. i thought this was a dead issue the second that voracek said it was a clean hit. wtf? i just had to check back in here to see what was going on since there were 125 posts since i last checked.

FCOL, this issue is over. the only conclusion that we can come to is that the league is not perfect... duh. shanny applies his reasoning to hits that are 'similar' but NO 2 hits are the same... ever. this is why it's fuzzy logic at best.

but.. good luck hashing this one out further. ... lol.

[doom88]

Fraser for league disciplinarian? Maybe other former refs? Maybe a group of three (former ref, former player, league executive)? Shrug.

[terp]

Fraser for league disciplinarian? Maybe other former refs? Maybe a group of three (former ref, former player, league executive)? Shrug.

It makes a lot more intuitive sense to me to have an ex official than an ex player that role.

[flyerrod]

It makes a lot more intuitive sense to me to have an ex official than an ex player that role.

And you thought we had suspensions before.........they would probably hire "go have another doughnut" Koharski for the job...

[terp]

And you thought we had suspensions before.........they would probably hire "go have another doughnut" Koharski for the job...

Look what we have now. No logic, no consistency, no integrity. Do you think Fraser would be worse or better job than Shanahan? I would give it a shot at this point.

[flyerrod]

Look what we have now. No logic, no consistency, no integrity. Do you think Fraser would be worse or better job than Shanahan? I would give it a shot at this point.

Fraser would be ok but if I was going to put someone in that job, it would be Ray Scapinello. That guy was a class referee that had the respect of players and coaches alike....

[terp]

Fraser would be ok but if I was going to put someone in that job, it would be Ray Scapinello. That guy was a class referee that had the respect of players and coaches alike....

I would take either over Shanahan. Shanny's a great guy but I think either of these two would be a more thoughtful interpreter of the rules. Supplemental discipline will remain a joke until they find someone good and let him do his job.

[Phillygrump]

It would just be nice if they'd give the job to someone who is not obviously affiliated with any specific teams.

[canoli]

It would just be nice if they'd give the job to someone who is not obviously affiliated with any specific teams.

Exactly PG - why is that such a novel concept? How come both of these guys (campbell, shanahan) weren't automatically ruled out from the start? Oh yeah I know, they're professionals, like our politicians, they would never compromise the integrity of their office for personal reasons.

[Phillygrump]

@canoli

Exactly. I have no idea why that accusation is so quickly dismissed in pro sports. Its almost assumed in politics so why is it so quickly dismissed in pro sports?

[canoli]

Right. And of course it begs the question, if Campbell and Shanny are such pros, why recuse themselves from cases involving their former teams? Or teams where a family member is a player? Naturally they'll tell you "to avoid the appearance of impropriety." Sure.

For my money the appearance is already there and it never goes away if the guy in charge is a former player/coach/GM/owner/etc.