Kronwall hit on Voracek

[Phillygrump]

I see Voracek being out for a while.

[mkscrewy]

did the Flyers feed show Laviolette pointing to his chin with his middle finger while talking to the ref after the hit?

[JackStraw]

Wow. Am I the only Flyers fan that thinks that was a perfectly clean, excellent hit? If Kronwall was a Flyer every single Flyers fan on this forum would love him. Yes, it was a hit to the head. Because Voracek gave him nothing else to hit. There was no charge, no elbow, nothing dirty about that hit at all. Kronwall made a hockey play, and a good one. Sorry.

[aziz]

Voracek was looking down that's why he got his head.

personally, i agree with you, that was on voracek for looking at the ice when he was receiving the puck. he gave kronwall the opening, and kronwall took it.

but

that doesn't matter under the "new" rules. it was clear that voracek had his head down, he didn't suddenly drop it or turn or anything else. kronwall knew exactly where on voracek he was going to make contact, and he took full advantage, didn't pull the hit at all. the hit wasn't targeted, per se, but it was clear that a standing shoulder check to voracek was going to hit him clean in the head.

take the names off the jerseys and that is a clear 2 game suspension, by recent precedent. if you know your hit is going to hit a guy in the head and have the opportunity to bail out, you can't make the hit.

but

this is kronwall. he has had a shield of invulnerability up during his entire career. for whatever reason, his plays are not second guessed by the league. as far as i know, he hasn't even had a hit be officially reviewed by the league. inspite of being one of the most renowned hitters in the league, and leaving a trail of incoherent players in his wake, he is not regarded as a repeat offender of any kind. if i had to guess, this one will also not receive any official anything from the league, and there will be no suspension.

i'll be honest, kronwall is the one player in the league i'm scared of, as a fan of an opposing team. milan lucic has his big hits now and then, matt cooke throws the occasional cheapshot, john scott is a monster who will pummel anyone he fights....but nick kronwall has made a career ambushing wingers exiting their zone in the most dangerous way possible, and he does it every night. i expect at least one flyer to not finish the game any time we play detroit. i expect it, every night. i can't say that about any other player in the league.

i love his game, don't get me wrong. i wish he was a flyer, and i wish the game of today still allowed that kind of hitting. but it doesn't. at least, not for anyone else.

[Bakanekimiwa]

I think it was a clean hit within the rules.

i do too... it should be very interesting to see how this gets ruled by shanny because it was a full on contact with the head first. they've made it very clear these are hits they want to eliminate from the game regardless of the other classifications of an illegal hit.

vorachuk is concussed... there is no doubt about that. he did the the tell-tale 'fencing response' pose with the arms sticking up.

and btw, wtf... i hope the flyers staff was just saying 'doubtful to return' in the 3rd period for game psychology reasons because if they had any thought of letting him back in the game... then they really are as incompetent as we've all feared.

[Bakanekimiwa]

personally, i agree with you, that was on voracek for looking at the ice when he was receiving the puck. he gave kronwall the opening, and kronwall took it.

but

that doesn't matter under the "new" rules. it was clear that voracek had his head down, he didn't suddenly drop it or turn or anything else. kronwall knew exactly where on voracek he was going to make contact, and he took full advantage, didn't pull the hit at all. the hit wasn't targeted, per se, but it was clear that a standing shoulder check to voracek was going to hit him clean in the head.

take the names off the jerseys and that is a clear 2 game suspension, by recent precedent. if you know your hit is going to hit a guy in the head and have the opportunity to bail out, you can't make the hit.

but

this is kronwall. he has had a shield of invulnerability up during his entire career. for whatever reason, his plays are not second guessed by the league.

wasn't he playing with shanny when shanny was still playing? i mean... it's detroit. surely shanny has a soft spot just like colin 'rags' campbell did.

[aziz]

Wow. Am I the only Flyers fan that thinks that was a perfectly clean, excellent hit? If Kronwall was a Flyer every single Flyers fan on this forum would love him. Yes, it was a hit to the head. Because Voracek gave him nothing else to hit.

true, but one of the things that has bothered me most about the recent rules enforcement is the idea that if the only hit available is one that hits the head, and you know this with enough time to avoid landing it, you have to abort. i hate it and all, but that is how it has been called for two seasons now. there was no question that was going to straight to voracek's face, which to date has meant suspendable hit.

i would love for the league to change direction and say, "look, keep your ****** head up, you have to choose between trying to play the puck but getting drilled, or surrendering the puck and living to try to take it back," and let the hits come. i'd love it. i think it'd be way safer, too, if voracek hadn't had the league telling him for years now that he shouldn't be worried, that it is up to the hitter to not knowingly hit players in vulnerable situations. but that isn't how the league has decided to deal with the issue.

[OH1FlyersFan]

I'll bet you 50 tokens it doesn't cost him a suspension.

I won't take that bet because you're right. If the hit had been by a Flyer on a Detroit player, the Flyer would have been thrown out of the game. After Rinaldo's "unsportsmanlike" and Hartnell's "roughing" penalties, it was clear which way the f'in refs were going to call the game.

Kronwall or some other Redwing needed to be broken. But at the same time, I know we need the two points. I was almost willing to give up a win for some quality payback.

[Phillygrump]

@aziz

I actually agree with almost everything you said except for two things. I think Kronwall knew what he was doing and targeted the head. Also, I would not want this guy on my team because I think if he played for Philly he'd be suspended all the time and be worthless to us.

Otherwise, I agree. He took full advantage of Voracek's vulnerability and he does this kind of thing all the time as if he has total disregard for the NHL's new "concussion protection policy" yet he never even gets reviewed.

I don't think this is a coincidence. Its just too ridiculous to be a coincidence.

I'm all about body checks and physicality and even punishing hits, but in this "new NHL" that hit is illegal and its selectively called and disciplined. Either let it go and lose guys to concussions and acknowledge that its all part of the game or enforce it totally.

[aziz]

wasn't he playing with shanny when shanny was still playing? i mean... it's detroit. surely shanny has a soft spot just like colin 'rags' campbell did.

yeah, i think they overlapped a little.

i'd like to not call bias. i like shanhan...and campbell didn't raise his voice about kronwall, either. it is definitely weird, though, that the most dangerous player in the NHL (imo) hasn't gotten so much as a "hmmmm, we'll look at it" from the league.

Edited March 7, 2012 by aziz

[JackStraw]

@aziz - iirc, you and I have been on opposing sides of debates like this on in the past, haven't we? Well, guess what. I think this one was clean as a whistle. No charge, no elbow, no leaving the feet, just a good clean body check on a guy who should have known better. Heck, on the replay you could see Jake look up and see Kronwall coming. Now, because of how vicious it looked, and if Jake does turn out to have a concussion, it wouldn't surprise me if Kronwall did get a game or two. But I don't know how a defenseman can play defense if he's not allowed to make that hit.

[Phillygrump]

I won't take that bet because you're right. If the hit had been by a Flyer on a Detroit player, the Flyer would have been thrown out of the game. After Rinaldo's "unsportsmanlike" and Hartnell's "roughing" penalties, it was clear which way the f'in refs were going to call the game.

Kronwall or some other Redwing needed to be broken. But at the same time, I know we need the two points. I was almost willing to give up a win for some quality payback.

I was willing to give up a win to knock Kronwall out of the game. He's a dirty scumbag and he needs to be treated as such.

We won and I don't even feel good about the win. I feel like some ******* just hit on my girlfriend all night and I did nothing but take her home and drop her off at the front door.

[OH1FlyersFan]

did the Flyers feed show Laviolette pointing to his chin with his middle finger while talking to the ref after the hit?

I totally saw that too. Pointed it out to my wife, in fact.....who asked me if Voracek was dead. She left the room after that hit and I got a little animated. Hehe.

[canoli]

personally, i agree with you, that was on voracek for looking at the ice when he was receiving the puck. he gave kronwall the opening, and kronwall took it.

but

that doesn't matter under the "new" rules. it was clear that voracek had his head down, he didn't suddenly drop it or turn or anything else. kronwall knew exactly where on voracek he was going to make contact, and he took full advantage, didn't pull the hit at all. the hit wasn't targeted, per se, but it was clear that a standing shoulder check to voracek was going to hit him clean in the head.

take the names off the jerseys and that is a clear 2 game suspension, by recent precedent. if you know your hit is going to hit a guy in the head and have the opportunity to bail out, you can't make the hit.

but

this is kronwall. he has had a shield of invulnerability up during his entire career. for whatever reason, his plays are not second guessed by the league. as far as i know, he hasn't even had a hit be officially reviewed by the league. inspite of being one of the most renowned hitters in the league, and leaving a trail of incoherent players in his wake, he is not regarded as a repeat offender of any kind. if i had to guess, this one will also not receive any official anything from the league, and there will be no suspension.

i'll be honest, kronwall is the one player in the league i'm scared of, as a fan of an opposing team. milan lucic has his big hits now and then, matt cooke throws the occasional cheapshot, john scott is a monster who will pummel anyone he fights....but nick kronwall has made a career ambushing wingers exiting their zone in the most dangerous way possible, and he does it every night. i expect at least one flyer to not finish the game any time we play detroit. i expect it, every night. i can't say that about any other player in the league.

i love his game, don't get me wrong. i wish he was a flyer, and i wish the game of today still allowed that kind of hitting. but it doesn't. at least, not for anyone else.

you're reading the rule one way but there is another way to interpret it - this part, "if you know your hit is going to hit a guy in the head and have the opportunity to bail out, you can't make the hit."

I'm not so sure about that - are you? Because the rule states a couple things - targeting the head is a no-no, but the rule goes on to talk about the player putting himself in a vulnerable position is to be taken into account. How can you argue that Jake didn't put himself in a bad position. You can NOT skate around - end of your shift, whenever - with your head on your chest when Kronwall is on the ice. You have to know where he is at all times or you're asking for trouble. Jake found it and when he wakes up he'll realize he brought that hit on himself.

Nowhere in the rules does it say a player has to let up - afaik. I could be wrong but I think "has to let up" only applies if the hit is clearly going to damage a player. Kronwall could say "it was shoulder to chest, sorry his head got in the way but that's not my fault" and he'd be right imo.

[terp]

Clear shot to the head on a player in a defenseless position. If he doesn't get suspended, it's a travesty.

I'm all for good hits and I like the way Kronwall plays. I know Voracek was looking down. But the hit was direct to the head, no doubt.

How the hell was it not a penalty?

It was an illegal hit targeting the head where the principal point of contact was the head. There is no mention in the rule of whether or not the opponent''s head is up or down; it doesn't matter. Nostalgia for the old rules doesn't change anything either. Also, everyone on the ice, including Kronwall, knows he's going to get suspended for two games. The Wings broadcast team knows it as well. Kronwall deserves to have a record and starting tomorrow, he'll have one.

[terp]

you're reading the rule one way but there is another way to interpret it - this part, "if you know your hit is going to hit a guy in the head and have the opportunity to bail out, you can't make the hit."

I'm not so sure about that - are you? Because the rule states a couple things - targeting the head is a no-no, but the rule goes on to talk about the player putting himself in a vulnerable position is to be taken into account. How can you argue that Jake didn't put himself in a bad position. You can NOT skate around - end of your shift, whenever - with your head on your chest when Kronwall is on the ice. You have to know where he is at all times or you're asking for trouble. Jake found it and when he wakes up he'll realize he brought that hit on himself.

Nowhere in the rules does it say a player has to let up - afaik. I could be wrong but I think "has to let up" only applies if the hit is clearly going to damage a player. Kronwall could say "it was shoulder to chest, sorry his head got in the way but that's not my fault" and he'd be right imo.

Shanahan has been suspending guys all season for hits like that so I don't see him getting mired in "did Voracek's have his head down" all of a sudden.

[Bakanekimiwa]

yeah, i think they overlapped a little.

i'd like to not call bias. i like shanhan...and campbell didn't raise his voice about kronwall, either. it is definitely weird, though, that the most dangerous player in the NHL (imo) hasn't gotten so much as a "hmmmm, we'll look at it" from the league.

i do too... and i don't *really* believe that shanny would let bias get in the way. i think he really is trying to do the best he can with some fairly nebulous directives. but, you *would* think that that might make him a bit more alert when it comes to detroit, but kronwall has not been suspended this year!? he's been on the giving end of many close calls. usually, those close calls are suspended. at least it seems that way from a flyer's perspective.

[Phillygrump]

I'm not so sure about that - are you? Because the rule states a couple things - targeting the head is a no-no, but the rule goes on to talk about the player putting himself in a vulnerable position is to be taken into account. How can you argue that Jake didn't put himself in a bad position. You can NOT skate around - end of your shift, whenever - with your head on your chest when Kronwall is on the ice. You have to know where he is at all times or you're asking for trouble. Jake found it and when he wakes up he'll realize he brought that hit on himself.

Nowhere in the rules does it say a player has to let up - afaik. I could be wrong but I think "has to let up" only applies if the hit is clearly going to damage a player. Kronwall could say "it was shoulder to chest, sorry his head got in the way but that's not my fault" and he'd be right imo.

That is in the event that he puts himself in a vulnerable position just before contact. Voracek didn't do that. He was a text-book defenseless player. Should you be defenseless in a pro sport? No. But if its being tolerated in the NHL some of the time players are going to do it and pay for it. This middle of the ground approach by the NHL is allowing players to get a false sense of security enough to let their guard down and become defenseless all the while allowing players to still feel above the law enabling them to still take the hit on these players. The inconsistency of the NHL is making it worse. Just take the penalty out of the game or enforce it better. If players know they are allowed to get hit like that they'll pay more attention to their heads. If its enforced harder then the hits will stop. Like Miagi says "walk middle, go squish. Just like grape"

Kronwall knew he was going to knock out Voracek. It was a hit to the head. If that hit is ok then what the f u c k is the point in enforcing any penalties on any players targeting the head?

[doom88]

Last Phi Det game, Rinaldo got the book thrown at him and Kronwall left his feet to launch himself into the lawn gnome sized Briere, targeting the head. Kronwall is untouchable for some stupid reason, or it really is open season on Flyers. Notice the ref right at the play thinks "meh, just a Flyer, no call."

He will likely not be suspended, and consequentially never be a repeat offender, like Malkin and OV for way too long.

[doom88]

On a more positive note, I sincerely hope Voracek is okay, and will get fully healthy as soon as possible. My heart sank and stomach turned upside down watching that nonsense. I think he should strongy consider sitting until he is medically ready to return (good docs, not Flyers docs). Even if nothing is apparenty wrong, enjoy the press box for a week, just in case.

[Lindbergh31]

i do too... it should be very interesting to see how this gets ruled by shanny because it was a full on contact with the head first. they've made it very clear these are hits they want to eliminate from the game regardless of the other classifications of an illegal hit.

vorachuk is concussed... there is no doubt about that. he did the the tell-tale 'fencing response' pose with the arms sticking up.

and btw, wtf... i hope the flyers staff was just saying 'doubtful to return' in the 3rd period for game psychology reasons because if they had any thought of letting him back in the game... then they really are as incompetent as we've all feared.

As much as I like Shanny when he played we got to remember who he use to play for. He's not going to suspend a Red Wing. Kronwall reminds me of the way Scott Stevens use to take advantage of players being in vunerable posititions before he would hit them. But as everyone knows in hockey what comes around goes around and someone will lay out Kronwall with a hit that he would make.

[JackStraw]

vorachuk is concussed... there is no doubt about that. he did the the tell-tale 'fencing response' pose with the arms sticking up

Interesting. I was a competitive fencer for many years and never heard of the "fencing response". Had to look it up on wikipedia, and lo and behold, Jake is already there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fencing_response#cite_note-22

[albertaflyer]

The problem is guys unless TSN or Sports Net up here make a big deal about the hit nothing will happen. The one thing I've learned from watching Detroit play is they get away with a lot of crap on the ice. I remember one of the teams in the playoffs last year really complaining about it. Now that I have watched them a few times lately I totally see it.

[terp]

As much as I like Shanny when he played we got to remember who he use to play for. He's not going to suspend a Red Wing. Kronwall reminds me of the way Scott Stevens use to take advantage of players being in vunerable posititions before he would hit them. But as everyone knows in hockey what comes around goes around and someone will lay out Kronwall with a hit that he would make.

He's going to have to. Does he really want to deal with the "bias" tag? He's going to eithervhave to recuse himself or face a lot of self imposed pressure to suspend Kronwall.

[TedZep]

Elbow to the face (ELBOW TO THE FACE!) of a Flyer leads to a two minute power play for the opposition.

Shades of a typical 5 minute major turning into a 4 on 4 only because it was a Flyer that was injured.