Kronwall hit on Voracek

[aziz]

Because the rule states a couple things - targeting the head is a no-no, but the rule goes on to talk about the player putting himself in a vulnerable position is to be taken into account.

48.1 Illegal Check to the Head – A hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head where the head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted. However, in determining whether such a hit should have been permitted, the circumstances of the hit, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit or the head contact on an otherwise legal body check was avoidable, can be considered.

the rule says that if a player puts himself in a bad spot immediately prior to or simultanious with the hit, that should be taken into account. i agree, voracek put himself in a very very bad spot, but it was not immediately prior to or simultanious with the hit. kronwall waited until the head went down and used that as his cue to lite voracek up. that bit of the rule is to deal with guys who suddenly bend over or turn and this sudden movement is what puts the head into the line of fire. not the case here. that bit of the rule isn't there to say so long as the guy put himself in a bad spot, hits to the head are green-lighted.

and here's the thing: as jack mentioned, i've been on the opposite side of this debate every time it has come up. or, at least, every time it comes up as a theoretical "what should the league do" discussion. the league started calling these where the player could put himself in a bad spot and once he did, he became unhittable, and i hated it. hate it. terrible way of handling the issue. the crap where someone turns their back to a checker while against the boards to make themself totally vulnerable, thus perversly invulnerable. guy with the puck in the neutral zone who makes a point of starring at his skates can only be stick checked, because any shoulder check would hit him in the noggin. it's a bunch of crap, and a terrible message to send to players around the league. that's what they've done, though. it's a lesson that has now been taught, and voracek went to school on it. he looked up, saw kronwall there, and then looked back down at the ice, obviously thinking he was safe doing so. presumably because the new NHL won't allow him to get cleaned out in that position. and then kronwall cleans him out.

my ideal world is where kronwall gets hit of the year for that play, and the league stresses to skaters around the league that it is up to them to keep themselves safe. don't turn your back to the middle of the ice near the boards. don't admire your pass. don't look down and dig the puck out of your skates at the blueline. if you do and someone sends you to la-la land, that's on you. if the league were to do that, every player would be much safer, because they'd know other players were out to get them, always.

that isn't what's happened, and the league needs to decide how this is going to work. half assing it, declaring "no more headshots, here are the rules" and then only applying them sometimes is the single worst thing the league can do.

look at suspensions that have been applied under rule 48. few of them are elbows to guys' jaws. most are shoulders that hit the head, clean checks unless head contact is verboten. so, is it or isn't it?

Edited March 7, 2012 by aziz

[aziz]

He's going to have to. Does he really want to deal with the "bias" tag? He's going to eithervhave to recuse himself or face a lot of self imposed pressure to suspend Kronwall.

he isn't, though. this isn't the first time kronwall has done this, and the league has just said, "what hit, we didn't see a hit."

not a word.

nothing.

mum.

silence.

so, i have to assume the same will be for

[aziz]

and those were just this season. start looking back and there is some seriously crazy **** that didn't warrant a peep.

and, arguably, the best of the bunch. again, nothing from the league:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KJm-qcnnC0

again, is head contact ok, or not?

[terp]

@aziz

I won't say that I have no concern at all about a lack of a response. I've been disappointed before. Many times in fact. In this instance however the hit isn't the patented "Kronwall back to opponent''s face". By contrast, tonight he kept his eyes on Voracek and drove his shoulder into his face. I would argue that he left his feet slightly while doing it. This constitutes a very different set of circumstances from the other three hits from this year that you posted. I think shoulder to head = suspension.

[Bakanekimiwa]

Interesting. I was a competitive fencer for many years and never heard of the "fencing response". Had to look it up on wikipedia, and lo and behold, Jake is already there:

http://en.wikipedia....se#cite_note-22

is he!? hahaha.. man... that was quick.

[Bakanekimiwa]

@aziz

I won't say that I have no concern at all about a lack of a response. I've been disappointed before. Many times in fact. In this instance however the hit isn't the patented "Kronwall back to opponent''s face". By contrast, tonight he kept his eyes on Voracek and drove his shoulder into his face. I would argue that he left his feet slightly while doing it. This constitutes a very different set of circumstances from the other three hits from this year that you posted. I think shoulder to head = suspension.

well... as much as it pains me to say it... it did look like a 'clean' hit. and by that, i mean... by the league's one-time definition of 'clean'. before all this head hubbub, it was just like the lindros hit. sucks for him, and us, but as far as the game goes it's 'legal'. he's got to keep his head up and whereabouts. i did not think kronwall left his skates. and i also believe he hit him square with his shoulder... arms down. the previous textbook definition of a clean hit

HOWEVER... the big caveat to all of this is this new mandate by the league that ALL hits to the head will be looked at and suspended if it's deemed the player didn't 'let up' on another player in a vulnerable position. by that definition... kronwall should have been given a major and game misconduct and a nice little chat with shanny tomorrow. and he should also be receiving a suspension. since he's miraculously dodged suspensions for very similar hits ... many this year... this should be his first of the season.

so.. on one hand, it's tricky because that, very recently, WAS a clean hit. but is it NOW!? the league has been telling us NO. but, with everything else... it's been pretty subjective and highly selective about what applies to whom.

we'll see... i'll be very surprised and angry if he's not suspended for that one. he knew exactly where that shoulder was headed(no pun intended) and i do believe he had ample time to let up. if that's what the league wants, he needs to be suspended.

[mkscrewy]

what pains me is that the game was too close for a real response by the Flyers before it ended. the Wings announcers whined and cried every time Kronwall was targeted or baited after that hit and it drove me up a god-damn wall.

[FlyersFan4Life]

Clean hit, Kronwall moved in but Voracek was admiring how pretty the puck looked on his stick instead of paying attention. Hope he okay but it was his own fault. Now the one the other day on Brierre was a cheap shot but this was clean and much more Voraceks fault than Kronners.

go back to the redwings forum dbag. clear hit to the head

[mkscrewy]

when is a head shot not a head shot? when it's Kronwall on the delivery?

[wcflyer]

This was clearly Bryz's fault. All kidding aside, it looked dirty at first being caught up in the moment, but after further review it was a clean hit. It was a matter of time before someone caught Voracek with his head down, too bad, hopefully he won't be out too long.

[trevluk]

I just watched the replay again, I don't think he left his feet.

If you see the ice level replay, you can see that he definitely left his feet a little bit. Not much, maybe an inch or so but his skates definitely came off the ice.

[trevluk]

But as everyone knows in hockey what comes around goes around and someone will lay out Kronwall with a hit that he would make.

Except that, as a defensemen, Kronwall will likely never be in that position breaking our of the zone with his head down, Defensemen have the luxury of being able to lay open ice hits but rarely are in a position to receive one. (They can occassionally take some punishment in the defensive corners though.)

[five6four]

heres how i feel about the hit: if Kronwall were any normal big-hitting player(within the current rules), he would have seen Voracek with his head down, and put his shoulder into Voracek's shoulder, probably delivering almost the same amount of destructive force into Jake. But Kronwall isnt a normal hitter. He skates in as if going for a hip check, and then throws himself backwards into the opponent, losing all control to deliver a hit to a specific target. He doesnt 'target' the head, he may not leave his feet, but he has no control NOT to hit the head, because he is flying at his opponent backwards. Im sorry, but i feel like his style of hitting should be illegal.

[pensuck]

We all wish the flyers had a dman that would hit like him. Dirty play or not he would look great in orange and black.

[bryanc]

yeah, i think they overlapped a little.

i'd like to not call bias. i like shanhan...and campbell didn't raise his voice about kronwall, either. it is definitely weird, though, that the most dangerous player in the NHL (imo) hasn't gotten so much as a "hmmmm, we'll look at it" from the league.

Kronwall had a hit he put on Kessler reviewed this past december. Shanny didn't give him a fine or suspension on the review.

[aziz]

Kronwall had a hit he put on Kessler reviewed this past december. Shanny didn't give him a fine or suspension on the review.

ok, you're right. didn't do a video about why he wasn't going to suspend, just said, "we aren't going to suspend nick kronwall". but he did at least mention he knew it happened.

[Podein25]

Wow. Am I the only Flyers fan that thinks that was a perfectly clean, excellent hit? If Kronwall was a Flyer every single Flyers fan on this forum would love him. Yes, it was a hit to the head. Because Voracek gave him nothing else to hit. There was no charge, no elbow, nothing dirty about that hit at all. Kronwall made a hockey play, and a good one. Sorry.

+1

I made my arguments last night in chat with grump and others, so I'm not going to do it again. However, I will say this: if the game is still to be called "hockey," the hockey that I played since I was 4, that hit has to be considered legal.

I repeat: if having your head down, or back to a player, means you cannot be hit, players might as well start skating backwards with the puck all the time. It will be perfectly safe and/or lead to numerous Power Plays.

Sure, it will look retarded, but on the positive, we will no longer have to watch players, like Shelley, who can barely skate, never mind skate backwards with the puck.

This debate has gone completely awry. And it's starting to piss me off.

I thought this comment on Crossing Broad was hilarious though:

"CLEARLY A SHOT TO THE HEAD" ...legal u say? Nice you ****** morons (3rd world posse, small **** dumbass from cincy) go watch another sport you clearly do not understand hockey......

Seriously let me ****** truck stick you two faggs and let me know how it feels, if its legal or not....

****** dandelions!

Posted by: Aaron | March 06, 2012 at 10:36 PM"

Edited March 7, 2012 by Podein25

[Podein25]

But Kronwall isnt a normal hitter. He skates in as if going for a hip check, and then throws himself backwards into the opponent, losing all control to deliver a hit to a specific target. He doesnt 'target' the head, he may not leave his feet, but he has no control NOT to hit the head, because he is flying at his opponent backwards. Im sorry, but i feel like his style of hitting should be illegal.

Interesting point. I'm not certain I agree with you about the illegality of it, but I find it interesting your point about "control"

Edited March 7, 2012 by Podein25

[canoli]

it's a lesson that has now been taught, and voracek went to school on it. he looked up, saw kronwall there, and then looked back down at the ice, obviously thinking he was safe doing so. presumably because the new NHL won't allow him to get cleaned out in that position. and then kronwall cleans him out.

i don't know about that - any of that. Kronwall makes a point to back off a bit, to hesitate as he lines up a player. When his "victim" takes his eyes off Kronwall, that's when he gets slammed. It's got nothing to do with NHL rules "making" Jake "think he was safe" - not at all. This was a Kronwall trademark hit - you can see it clearly right before he levels Voracek, that slight hesitation, which he knows damn well is being communicated to his target. Clement spoke briefly about it during the broadcast.

I don't think we need any more "training" from the NHL - these are professional hockey players who've been banging and crashing into each other all their lives. You think Jake would've done anything different - or Kronwall for that matter - had their been a league-wide email saying "Keep your heads up out there" sent to the teams?

[Podein25]

It's got nothing to do with NHL rules "making" Jake "think he was safe" - not at all.

He's in one of the most dangerous spots on the ice, Kronwall is on the ice (he should be aware of that), and he reaches back like that? Maybe it was a total brain cramp due to long shift, as someone said. In that case: take shorter shifts. And keep your head up.

[canoli]

Yep, dat's it - eggzakalee.

@aziz

Check out the replay - you see Kronwall hanging at the blue line, Jake comes up the boards, sees Kronwall there - Kronwall is smart, he doesn't make any move whatsoever till Jake's head goes down to gather the puck. That's what Clement was talking about, his trademark hesitation.

Of course Kronwall knew he'd blast him off his feet, and the primary point of contact would be the head. But I still think - like Podes is saying - it's up to Jake never to put himself in that position - ever, but especially not when Kronwall is lurking just over the blue line.

[AndyS]

Yep, dat's it - eggzakalee.

@aziz

Check out the replay - you see Kronwall hanging at the blue line, Jake comes up the boards, sees Kronwall there - Kronwall is smart, he doesn't make any move whatsoever till Jake's head goes down to gather the puck. That's what Clement was talking about, his trademark hesitation.

Of course Kronwall knew he'd blast him off his feet, and the primary point of contact would be the head. But I still think - like Podes is saying - it's up to Jake never to put himself in that position - ever, but especially not when Kronwall is lurking just over the blue line.

Should Jake have kept his head up? Duh.

But it was a hit directly to the head. That should not be allowed. That kind of hit could end a career or worse.

I'm not a big fan of fighting in the NHL, but I am very disappointed that none of Jake's teammates did anything to Kronwall after that hit.

[canoli]

it wasn't "directly to the head" it was to the chest, which happened to be supporting Jake's jaw at the time.

You dismiss the idea that Jake should have his head up with a "duh" but that is the main point - the difference-maker in this situation.

2 cars collide at an intersection because 1 of them ran the red light, you don't say "duh" when it's suggested "he shouldn't have run the light." It's what caused the accident.

Jake's head down on his chest is what caused the damage; had he been skating with some awareness of his surroundings - like a professional is expected to - he wouldn't have gotten hurt, only tagged by a good hit.

[terp]

He's in one of the most dangerous spots on the ice, Kronwall is on the ice (he should be aware of that), and he reaches back like that? Maybe it was a total brain cramp due to long shift, as someone said. In that case: take shorter shifts. And keep your head up.

It doesn't keep happening because the players getting hit are stupid. Ryan Kesler certainly isn't a stupid player. Neither is Martin Havlat nor Jakub Voracek. It keeps happening because Kronwall has a special talent for bringing it when his opponent is least expecting it. He watches the eyes to figure out what the opponent will do and has the skating ability to get there in time to deliver the big hit before the opponent catches on. I would call him a "cerebral" hitter (pun intended).

Regarding one of your previous posts, would suggest keeping in mind we are talking about brain injuries here, the kind that can leave you permanently disabled or more susceptible to substance abuse, violent behavior or the early onset of dementia. So this isn't merely about the perceived loss of our father's brand of fire wagon hockey. This is about a type of injury that is literally plaguing the game. I wish I could quote the figure for how many players have been diagnosed with concussions this season. Just a guess but I wouldn't be surprised if it were an average of greater than 3 per team or in excess of 100 league wide. I believe Vorachek would be the 7th Flyer diagnosed with a concussion this season.

I think it is worth noting that Kronwall hasn't been suspended for any of his previous hits in the same spot. That may be because his patented move is to back into the opponent, somewhat dispersing the point of contact and also reducing the chance that he will get called for targeting the head. I consider this a pretty liberal standard given the occasional results of his hits. There is no excusing his hit last night because he kept his eyes on Voracek the entire time and obviously targeted the head. I get the "he should have kept his head up" but the cost of blows to the head is too high for the league and the PA to ignore. It has to be this way or else.

[terp]

it wasn't "directly to the head"

It was directly to the face, not the chest. Take another look.