Kronwall hit on Voracek

[Podein25]

obviously targeted the head.

It is not at all obvious @terp

Not at all. If Voracek keeps his head up, he doesn't get plastered. Why is THAT not the principal take away message from this incident?

You, and those who are in agreement with you, are saying that you want to change the rules of hockey, change the way it is played. You want to suspend a guy for being very good at what he has been taught and trained to do.

I'd rather keep the game the way it is and teach players like Voracek to protect themselves. Hell, I'd rather put existing wireless technology into the helmets so that a coach watching from the booth can say: "Jake look out!"

Edited March 7, 2012 by Podein25

[JackStraw]

is he!? hahaha.. man... that was quick.

There's no speed limit on the information superhighway.

[canoli]

It was directly to the face, not the chest. Take another look.

face, chest, head, jaw - it doesn't matter because they were all effectively in the same spot - that's what comes from having your head down on your chest. You simply can't tell players to "let up" in those situations because as Podes and others have said, what's to prevent guys skating backwards the entire time? Or skating with their faces on their chest?

Look it's a tough hit to take, and I hate that Kronwall plays for the Wings and not the Flyers. But he is in no way the same "class" (if i can use that word) as Cooke or Kasperitus is/was. Yes he waited till Voracek dropped his head, that's what he does, he waits till the player is most vulnerable. That's how you make a big hit. It's up to Jake to protect himself if he wants to avoid getting creamed like that at the blue line.

[mojo1917]

The problem is guys unless TSN or Sports Net up here make a big deal about the hit nothing will happen. The one thing I've learned from watching Detroit play is they get away with a lot of crap on the ice. I remember one of the teams in the playoffs last year really complaining about it. Now that I have watched them a few times lately I totally see it.

i hear you, Detroit is my "other team" going back to the bob probert days.. but man i'm starting to think they play dirty.

how about the knee on knee hit to jagr last night... the one that ended jagr's night. that was a dangerous & unnecessary hit there too, i'm not sure who made it but the guys was beaten and threw his leg out to try to "make a play"..

[JackStraw]

It was directly to the face, not the chest. Take another look.

Even if it was a direct hit to the head (which it was) that's not the same as targeting the head. Kronwall is a good defenseman and he's making a play that a defenseman is supposed to make- seal off the boards there. Voracek has to be smarter. He put his head down and tried to get fancy. The only way Kronwall could have not hit the head is if he just stepped out of the way. I've been on the opposite side of almost every other hit of this kind that's come up for discussion, but this one was clean imo.

[AJgoal]

Here's the problem though. I think a lot of us would be fine with the hit...If the NHL hadn't suspended other players for similar and even less violent hits that hit the head. But the NHL has put out that if the head is the primary point of impact, it doesn't matter if the cause is the hitter leaping into the guy's head, throwing an elbow at it, the hittee ducking his head into the hit, or the hitter being a foot taller than the person being hit, making it impossible NOT to hit him in the head. If that's the way the NHL wants to treat hits to the head, they need to suspend Kronwall. Period. If they don't want to, then don't suspend him. But don't suspend other players for doing the same thing. As before, it's a problem of consistency.

@canoli - I'm with you on players needing to protect themselves. Jake shouldn't have lowered his head with Kronwall that close. But like I said, it's the treatment of prior, similar hits by other players that have set the bar for this. If the league's not going to be consistent on head hits, then they shouldn't have added a rule to protect players from head hits.

[Phillygrump]

Does he really want to deal with the "bias" tag? He's going to eithervhave to recuse himself or face a lot of self imposed pressure to suspend Kronwall.

What "bias" tag? Campbell admittedly was biased and he got away with it for a while afterward until he stepped down. The NHL isn't going to pressure Shanny to do anything. Kronwall will get off scot free again.

[mojo1917]

Even if it was a direct hit to the head (which it was) that's not the same as targeting the head. Kronwall is a good defenseman and he's making a play that a defenseman is supposed to make- seal off the boards there. Voracek has to be smarter. He put his head down and tried to get fancy. The only way Kronwall could have not hit the head is if he just stepped out of the way. I've been on the opposite side of almost every other hit of this kind that's come up for discussion, but this one was clean imo.

i shuddered at the impact and thought the primary point of contact was jake's mellon, but his mellon was down, there was no way to make that play and not hit jake's head. i thought it was a good hit with unfortunate circumstances. i bet jake never makes that mistake again.

also as i posted earlier regarding the knee on knee that ended jagr's night i'm really beginning to see a double standard when it comes to the flyers hitting guys and other teams doing the same. and that team in detroit gets away with plenty of unsavory euro stuff, punching guys after the whistle with their mitts (the chicago game saw lots of this) , a little extra stick work, really disrespectful stuff, that i'd love for them to have to answer for but the new league and the instigator penalty seems to say keep on keepin' on with that crap.

Edited March 7, 2012 by mojo1917

[Phillygrump]

@aziz

I can not believe that Kesler hit didn't even get looked at.

That hit on Kesler is the textbook definition of what the NHL professes to be taking out of the game.

[Podein25]

The only way Kronwall could have not hit the head is if he just stepped out of the way.

Exactly exact. Plus, giving up a 2-on-1in the process. Flyers fans would have been thrilled. Babcock, not so much.

I also like the point @canoli makes:

face, chest, head, jaw - it doesn't matter because they were all effectively in the same spot

It's rather like arguing that when a player is laying on the ice, is hit in the face with a stick, it should be high-sticking

Edited March 7, 2012 by Podein25

[Podein25]

Ruling from NHL via Bobby Mac on Twitter: "No suppl disc for Kronwall on Voracek. PPOC was head but deemed full body on body hit. Not a hit NHL believes should be out of the game."

Cue the outrage and double standard talk.

[Phillygrump]

it did look like a 'clean' hit. and by that, i mean... by the league's one-time definition of 'clean'. before all this head hubbub, it was just like the lindros hit.

The problem is, while that may be true, the new emphasis is on protecting against concussions (or so they say) therefore these hits are being penalized and are receiving discipline afterwards. So nowadays that hit is NOT clean. Whether you feel it belongs in the game still or not it is NOT a legal hit.

The problem is that Kronwall will get off and has in the past so he's going to keep on doing it because he doesn't think its wrong. Or more accurately he doesn't think he'll get caught for it. He's a dirty f u c k. It bothers me that Kronwall KNOWS he's knocking players out of the game and jeopardizing their careers by targeting their heads with these hits and like aziz said he takes full advantage of their negligence.

[Phillygrump]

Cue the outrage and double standard talk.

I'm not shocked. I expected the league to let Kronwall get away with it. If they didn't even touch him for the Kesler hit they weren't going to with this hit.

[Phillygrump]

Shanahan is a ***** and so is Kronwall. Kronwall lays the hit and then turtles to dodge the backlash of his dirty play.

Shanahan has no balls. Unreal.

[JackStraw]

giving up a 2-on-1in the process. Flyers fans would have been thrilled. Babcock, not so much

Oh, but I'm sure he would understand...

[Phillygrump]

<<Not a hit NHL believes should be out of the game."

Lets see when it happens to Crosby or Malkin or Toews or Seguin and see if it is a hit that should be out of the game. What a disgrace.

[terp]

@Podein25

It isn't that I want to change the rules. They were already changed. It's done and they didn't consult me. Also, if you look at your opponent as you stick your shoulder into his face, you are probably going to get called for targeting the head.

Edit: just saw the ruling. No credibility. Some hits to the head are legal while others aren't but damned if I can tell one from the other. Rule 48 has no clear meaning.

Edited March 7, 2012 by terp

[Phillygrump]

@Podein25

So Pods, do you think there is no double standard? How do you explain Rinaldo hitting a guy in the chest and getting suspended for 2 games, while Kronwall hits guys in the head and doesn't even get reviewed? Come on. You don't think Shanny is watching this guy's back?

[Digityman]

Voracek's head is down. Kronwall's feet are on the ground and he looks to be preparing himself for the hit.

If Vorcek's head isn't down he see's Kronwall coming and can sidestep it.

Click to enlarge

[canoli]

It's rather like arguing that when a player is laying on the ice, is hit in the face with a stick, it should be high-sticking

Bingo. And that's all there is to this hit - this hit.

As for the double-standard and the prior suspensions for similar or worse hits, that's another topic. Personally I don't think 2 wrongs make a right, so who cares if "other players were suspended for similar hits." I mean I get what Grump is saying and I share his bitterness that Shanahan is no better than Campbell at dealing out supplementary discipline, but still - 2 wrongs don't make a right.

[Podein25]

It's done and they didn't consult me.

LOL, that was a good one!

Also, if you look at your opponent as you stick your shoulder into his face, you are probably going to get called for targeting the head.

That is an absurd statement. So just so you know, hockey players are taught to look at the chest when hitting (since unlike arms, heads and legs, it doesn't move). What's Kronwall supposed to do, look at Voracek's feet to see what kind of skates he's wearing or calculate his lace count? It's absurd. He looks at his chest and planted his shoulder right in the middle of it. Voracek, because he was looking down for the puck (bad idea generally), put his chin right on his chest. How is that Kronwall's fault?

[Podein25]

So Pods, do you think there is no double standard?

I think certain types of players who wear Orange and Black are more likely to get called for penalties than some players on other teams. But, if, say, Coburn had made that hit on a Red Wing player, I think the league ruling would be the same.

[aziz]

@canoli

Of course Kronwall knew he'd blast him off his feet, and the primary point of contact would be the head. But I still think - like Podes is saying - it's up to Jake never to put himself in that position - ever, but especially not when Kronwall is lurking just over the blue line

and I've been saying for years now that it is a terrible idea to punish players who hit guys who have put themselves in "vulnerable"position, because it encourages players to put themselves in "vulnerable" positions. but here we are. 90% of the suspensions we have seen over the last however long have been hits on guys who turned their back to a checker, who have looked down to pull a puck out of their skates, who have admired their pass, who have done something other than protect themself from a big hit. that's the message that had been sent: if a hit will result in dangerous contract, and the hit is abortable, it is up to the checker to adjust.

I want an nhl where Stevens' hit on Lindros is ok, Richards on booth, Campbell on umberger. those are all great hits on guys who weren't paying enough attention.... but they are also poster hits for what the league has decided to no longer allow. Joe Thornton was suspended because David perron received a pass in the neutral zone while looking backward. Raffi Torres has been suspended 153 times because guys aren't protecting themselves. it hasn't been up to the hittie to keep himself safe, it's been up to the hitter to make sure he isn't taking advantage of a guy not paying attention, or worse, intentionally putting himself in a bad spot.

I really do wish the league were still called old school, but it isn't. except sometimes. to continuously call things one way, but then occasionally switch it up is going to get someone killed, eventually.

either a guy can take advantage of vulnerability, or he can't. consistency is vital.

[Phillygrump]

@canoli

These issues are one in the same IMO because I have seen hits that were less severe than this punished. The NHL is setting the standard that these hits that cause concussions are to be taken out of the game. The problem is they only step up and assert that point when the guy committing the offense is not a good old boy. Thats what has me outraged. If this is the old NHL my response to that hit is "Jake keep your head up. Now someone go beat Kronwall's ***." but this is not the old NHL and that hit is being reviewed and disciplined on any other night by almost any other player. My outrage is that it was Kronwall yet again and there is no discipline from it. So, not only is Jake concussed, but so is the next guy that receives a dirty hit by Kronwall.

[bryanc]

it wasn't "directly to the head" it was to the chest, which happened to be supporting Jake's jaw at the time.

You dismiss the idea that Jake should have his head up with a "duh" but that is the main point - the difference-maker in this situation.

2 cars collide at an intersection because 1 of them ran the red light, you don't say "duh" when it's suggested "he shouldn't have run the light." It's what caused the accident.

Jake's head down on his chest is what caused the damage; had he been skating with some awareness of his surroundings - like a professional is expected to - he wouldn't have gotten hurt, only tagged by a good hit.

You need to watch the replay in slow motion. The first body part touching Kronwall was Voracek's chin. It is a direct blow to the head, THEN the chest. Not the other wawy around.