Danny Briere: Flyers’ New GM Says ‘Rebuild,’ Welcomes the Challenge

[OccamsRazor]

4 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

We have some good young

 

This kid is a wild card to wonder if he could move to center with all the depth at RW?

 

 

Some have already said he stood out more than Jay O'Brien already.

 

Guess we'll see in another year or two.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by OccamsRazor

[flyercanuck]

14 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I assume this means you think the time it takes to rebuild will outlast TK’s usefulness? What would you like to see coming back to the Flyers for TK? 
 

 

 

Yes, exactly. As rad mentioned, it's not like I want to move Konecny...it just makes sense to if you're rebuilding. He should bring back a good haul, and his loss should make the team worse short term/higher draft picks. There's no rush to trade him, but if you get blown away by a deal, take it. 

 

Draft picks and good prospects are what we need.

[RonJeremy]

14 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Seems you forgot Emil Andrea. He joined the Phantoms two days ago.

 

He has #1 potential was compared to a Kimo type when he was drafted but will need time to develop a year or two in the AHL and he could be ready just in time for when Ivan is in his last year of his contract.

 

No need to rush this kid.

 

Ethan Samson is a legit two way guy.

 

A right hand shot but still just 19.

 

We'll see they still need to collect assets some seeds are planted but must be given time to ripen.

Yes Andre is a good offensive defenceman but we really need someone who is a standout in the defensive part..I don't know that Samson projects as a top pair guy. Ginning is a plus 24 for the Phantoms, he looks defensively sound but I don't think he's a first pair guy either. One big reason we have sucked for years is due to poor drafting , lack of depth and poor player development. 

 

We always play guys in positions they are not suited for, which in turn ruins their progress and confidence. We always have second pair dmen playing first pair minutes and situations , remember when Sanheim and Meyers were like a collective -10 in one game. We ruined Provorov too. Thats how you ruin confidence. We also do the same with our forwards, Cates is our first line center, a rookie left wing. We need a legit #1 dman who can prevent goals and lead the defense. We have to hope to get lucky in the 2024 draft and pick a potential top dman. In this years draft the forwards are all the top guys. I like the  Gauthier pick but Jiricek may turn out to be the kinda dman we really needed.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

I like the  Gauthier pick but Jiricek may turn out to be the kinda dman we really needed

Every part of this sentence. 100%

 

I was so ticked at Schmuckles for this pick.

 

In Schmuckle's defense, he truly needed everything and knew it, but Jiricek was the correct pick here.

Edited March 19, 2023 by ruxpin

[CoachX]

20 hours ago, icehole said:

I just saw something about Danny saying they flyers can't play the brand of hockey they're known for anymore, which is rough and tough, "Broad street Bullies" hockey. See this is what I don't agree with.

I want a team that can kick your a$$ and skate circles around you. All I ever hear anymore is about how the flyers need to lose the mentality to beat people up. Nobody seems to realize they lost that mentality a while ago...and I believe it has made them worse. Just because they sign Risto doesn't mean their tough. That guy is soft. Just because they sign Hayes doesn't mean their big. That guy is lazy and doesn't intimidate anyone. Nick D is just a show fighter...he doesn't put fear in anyone.

The Flyers problem is just straight up lack of talent. You can get talented guys that are tough in different ways. I want to keep the reputation of being nasty, just add more talent to go with it.

I read this article too. And quite frankly I didn't get it. He starts off by saying, “If I’m defining Flyer hockey, it’s not the Broad Street Bullies from the ‘70s and ‘80s. Times have changed. You can’t play the game that way anymore, so we have to be realistic when we say that,” Ok, rough hard hitting teams with slower bruising type players wont get it done. I can agree, so what is the solution? He then says, “To me, Flyer hockey is a team like John Tortorella is trying to build right now. A lot of character, competitive, guys that work hard every single night. At the moment, it’s been a little more trying scoring goals. We have a hard time scoring goals and creating offense. That’s gonna come eventually. But we want to build our culture. Guys that are working hard, guys that are competing every single shift. And we’ve seen that a lot more of our team this year, but it’s far from being a finished product. We still have a lot of work to do. But that’s how I would define Flyer hockey.”

 

The only thing I got from that last quote is they need to score more goals. Ya think? And here's my issue. Those teams from the 70's and 80's didnt have problem scoring goals. In fact, most fans would argue the lack of a true number one goalie was the difference. And I'm sorry, but the Flyers teams I remember were all about "character" guys who worked their asses off every night.  Danny's "culture" are guys that work hard every night and compete every shift. Again what does that have to do with the teams from the 70-80's?

 

As I read this BS he is sllnging, I come back to the same conclusion, the three "UNwisemen". The culture has allowed them to chase outdated ideals and hand out bad contracts like they are unlimited. When they got good players they could build around (Carter/Richards) they coddled and entitled them, essentially creating the wrong culture.

 

I still dont think Briere was the right choice. But he's THE choice, so I hope he does a good job. I will be happy to be wrong. But right now he's doing a lot of talking but he isn't saying anything

[ruxpin]

I think Briere's quote is okay. Dead on with the first part, but missing some important ingredients in the second part, IMO.

 

We need less "I pick things up and put them down" cement heads.  We either led the league or were close in fighting majors and hits.  That has served us so well.

 

In the cap era we cannot sink the payroll into the Glen Cochrane/Dave Hoyda/Nicolas Deslauliers/Rasmus Ristolainen "erg I eat meat. It's still alive when I bite it" cement heads.

 

You have to have some tough S.O.Bs with SKILL that are a pain in the a## to play against.  But the skill is first.  I understand energy guys on the 4th line (though this is overstated) but they have to be able to play and not be a liability.

 

Dave Schultz would have no place in today's game.  I'm sad about that, actually, but it's reality.  And it's a reality that the Sleestaks have never come to understand.

 

Yes, we need a team of players that will work hard and cohesively, like Briere mentioned, but that by itself will get you a hard working team that cannot put the puck in the net nor keep it out of their own. 

 

No team solely made up of Steve Shutt or Mikail Renberg will win anything either, despite having offensive ability.  In the current version of the game you need skill and grit/sandpaper, hopefully with a pretty heavily venn diagram overlap.

 

But you cannot have a full time fighter with nothing else in his bag on the payroll in a flat and/or constricting cap.  It's just not the way it's done.

Edited March 19, 2023 by ruxpin

[GratefulFlyers]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Yes, exactly. As rad mentioned, it's not like I want to move Konecny...it just makes sense to if you're rebuilding. He should bring back a good haul, and his loss should make the team worse short term/higher draft picks. There's no rush to trade him, but if you get blown away by a deal, take it. 

 

Draft picks and good prospects are what we need.

I was afraid that would be the answer. But the Rangers turned themselves around in just a few years. They did get a big break with Panarin but if Gaudreau still wants to play in Philly that would be similar to Panarin wanting NY.
 

Of course there’s more to it than Panarin …. but Shesterkin / Hart is comparable and the Flyers may have a “kid line” in the making. Unfortunately the Flyers’ D is a real mess.

 

Is the main problem the lack of cap space? Pay Hayes $3.5mil to play somewhere else...JVR is off the books in a few weeks but after that? Creative LTIR I guess.

[CoachX]

24 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I think Briere's quote is okay. Dead on with the first part, but missing some important ingredients in the second part, IMO.

 

We need less "I pick things up and put them down" cement heads.  We either led the league or were close in fighting majors and hits.  That has served us so well.

 

In the cap era we cannot sink the payroll into the Glen Cochrane/Dave Hoyda/Nicolas Deslauliers/Rasmus Ristolainen "erg I eat meat. It's still alive when I bite it" cement heads.

 

You have to have some tough S.O.Bs with SKILL that are a pain in the a## to play against.  But the skill is first.  I understand energy guys on the 4th line (though this is overstated) but they have to be able to play and not be a liability.

 

Dave Schultz would have no place in today's game.  I'm sad about that, actually, but it's reality.  And it's a reality that the Sleestaks have never come to understand.

 

Yes, we need a team of players that will work hard and cohesively, like Briere mentioned, but that by itself will get you a hard working team that cannot put the puck in the net nor keep it out of their own. 

 

No team solely made up of Steve Shutt or Mikail Renberg will win anything either, despite having offensive ability.  In the current version of the game you need skill and grit/sandpaper, hopefully with a pretty heavily venn diagram overlap.

 

But you cannot have a full time fighter with nothing else in his bag on the payroll in a flat and/or constricting cap.  It's just not the way it's done.

good solid points. I don't disagree. Interestingly enough though, the article and my POV doesn't focus on "full time fighter". Often in these types of discussions, the main focus is just on the Schultz' and Cochranes of the 70's, while overlooking the Tocchet's and Mellanby types of the 80's. Those 80's teams had skill and talent as well as the ability to take care of business. I realize today's team has wasted a valuable roster spot and contract on a full time fighter, and that is a joke.

 

DB's quotes are generic. Every team wants what he described. And the teams from back then did exactly that. Personally, I think they stuck a microphone in his face and he had to say something. What we got was fluff and with no substance.

 

I agree with the type pf team you described, its too bad DB couldnt just say what you  said

[SCFlyguy]

33 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I was afraid that would be the answer. But the Rangers turned themselves around in just a few years.

You should pay attention to how they did it, because it wasn't just getting lucky with Panarin (and no, Johnny Hockey coming here would not have been like that).  The Rangers spent at least two years completely dismantling their previous Cup-losing team and turning those guys into the assets that ended up on this team.  They were honest with themselves and their fans that they weren't good enough and that continuing to go back at it with the mediocre remnants of that team was going to lead to diminishing returns.

 

Chris Kreider is basically the only guy that straddled the previous Rangers era and this one.  I'm prepared for that in Philly, but it sounds like many here aren't, because every time someone mentions trading Konecny, Provorov, and Hart, people start crying that you can't trade everyone and you need some vets.  As if trading no talent junk like Hayes, Risto, Deangelo, etc. is a rebuild.

[ruxpin]

32 minutes ago, CoachX said:

good solid points. I don't disagree. Interestingly enough though, the article and my POV doesn't focus on "full time fighter". Often in these types of discussions, the main focus is just on the Schultz' and Cochranes of the 70's, while overlooking the Tocchet's and Mellanby types of the 80's. Those 80's teams had skill and talent as well as the ability to take care of business. I realize today's team has wasted a valuable roster spot and contract on a full time fighter, and that is a joke.

 

DB's quotes are generic. Every team wants what he described. And the teams from back then did exactly that. Personally, I think they stuck a microphone in his face and he had to say something. What we got was fluff and with no substance.

 

I agree with the type pf team you described, its too bad DB couldnt just say what you  said

Yeah, I think you and I pretty much agree. And I completely agree on the Tocchet/Mellanby types. Or more recently Hartnell. Simmonds.

 

The last 3-4 years of the Oilers has shown what only scoring skill will get you.  Conversely, look what happened when they removed the Tkachuk sandpaper in Calgary (there's more to Calgary's issues than this, but that doesn't help the point).

 

So yeah. I think we're pretty much on the same page.  Including the part where the second half of Briere's quote said virtually nothing and--more concerning--may have missed the point entirely.

 

On the other hand, MAYBE crawl before you walk.  There's not a lot here, so at least build the culture of working hard, cohesively and coherently, as well as with some accountability to one another.

[RonJeremy]

4 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I was afraid that would be the answer. But the Rangers turned themselves around in just a few years. They did get a big break with Panarin but if Gaudreau still wants to play in Philly that would be similar to Panarin wanting NY.
 

Of course there’s more to it than Panarin …. but Shesterkin / Hart is comparable and the Flyers may have a “kid line” in the making. Unfortunately the Flyers’ D is a real mess.

 

Is the main problem the lack of cap space? Pay Hayes $3.5mil to play somewhere else...JVR is off the books in a few weeks but after that? Creative LTIR I guess.

The Rangers also already had Zabanajed  and Kreisler and Panarin only wanted to go to NY and they struck gold when Adam Fox wouldn’t sign with Carolina and demanded a trade to NY. We don’t have any players close to those four. The other thing is nobody is demanding to come to Philly. So a rebuild is our only answer. From the Flyers  current roster, I would keep Frost, Cates, Tippett, York and Farabee. Maybe Hart depending on Erssons potential. Everyone else should be available, but in reality the only players we have that would bring back something good are Hart, TK and Provy, maybe Sanheim but he had a bad year and his ridiculous contract kicks in. That’s about it. 

[RonJeremy]

3 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Yeah, I think you and I pretty much agree. And I completely agree on the Tocchet/Mellanby types. Or more recently Hartnell. Simmonds.

 

The last 3-4 years of the Oilers has shown what only scoring skill will get you.  Conversely, look what happened when they removed the Tkachuk sandpaper in Calgary (there's more to Calgary's issues than this, but that doesn't help the point).

 

So yeah. I think we're pretty much on the same page.  Including the part where the second half of Briere's quote said virtually nothing and--more concerning--may have missed the point entirely.

 

On the other hand, MAYBE crawl before you walk.  There's not a lot here, so at least build the culture of working hard, cohesively and coherently, as well as with some accountability to one another.

I agree, if you can get some skill players with  good size, mental fortitude who also can play physical and fight only if needed. Peter Forsberg and Roenick were guys like that, they weren’t fighters but they played tough hockey. You really need those kinds guys to get you through the long physical playoff series. The Leafs are a perfect example of a highly skilled team with no balls or toughness. 

[OccamsRazor]

6 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

Yes Andre is a good offensive defenceman but we really need someone who is a standout in the defensive part..I don't know that Samson projects as a top pair guy.

 

The guys you are looking for don't grow on trees and unless you are picking top 5 in the draft well will be hard to find.

 

They may have to wait till they are ready and trade for one....and i am assuming you are talking about the top pair right hand D man that every club damn near needs.

 

They will have to scout and find a kid to develop otherwise.

 

But in the mean time they have Andrea and Samson still to develop.

 

And both will help them hang onto the puck more and should add some play making too.

 

But at 21 and 19 years old are a few years away from knowing what they have right now.

 

Having coaches that can teach is huge here in all of it. Torts seems like that type but his patience might be his downfall can't tell right now.

[GrittyForever]

4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

The guys you are looking for don't grow on trees and unless you are picking top 5 in the draft well will be hard to find.

 

 

Having coaches that can teach is huge here in all of it. Torts seems like that type but his patience might be his downfall can't tell right now.

Trading away your second round picks doesn't help either. 

 

Coaching is huge if they do go with youth, I agree fully with you there. I also think Torts lack of patience is a little bit media oriented. It's a public face. I think he's a better teacher behind the scenes and in practice than many people think. 

 

Establishing the culture and the work ethic first is the right plan. When you have that the young guys who come in see it, are surrounded by it, and feel more obligated to join it. It becomes the norm . Otherwise you can get a Buffalo type situation with lots of young talent but a fragile or non existent culture and a poor work ethic and it continually cycles into failure. 

 

[OccamsRazor]

38 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

Trading away your second round picks doesn't help either. 

 

 

Well with Chuck gone we have to hope their philosophy is gone with them and valuing draft picks again are the things we need.

[GrittyForever]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well with Chuck gone we have to hope their philosophy is gone with them and valuing draft picks again are the things we need.

I am hoping they go the other way and trade some of the stiffs on this roster for more picks, not less. Briere should do his best to get as many picks in this draft as possible as it's a good and deep one. 

[OccamsRazor]

18 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

I am hoping they go the other way and trade some of the stiffs on this roster for more picks, not less. Briere should do his best to get as many picks in this draft as possible as it's a good and deep one. 

 

Maybe I'm drunk but that is what I said.

[GrittyForever]

34 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Maybe I'm drunk but that is what I said.

I'm agreeing with you. 

[OccamsRazor]

39 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

I'm agreeing with you. 

 

That I'm drunk? You're mean.

[GratefulFlyers]

17 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

The Rangers also already had Zabanajed  and Kreisler and Panarin only wanted to go to NY and they struck gold when Adam Fox wouldn’t sign with Carolina and demanded a trade to NY. We don’t have any players close to those four.

True right now no one on the roster is at their level but that’s what development is all about. Tippett’s release is as good as Zibanejad’s he just needs to work on his accuracy. He’s made excellent progress this year in his overall game. Along with TK the Flyers probably already have a couple 30+ goal scorers. Noah Cates is another whose made great strides this season. Frost is (to me) a big “maybe.” If those 2 can raise their level next year the holes in the offense start to close.

 

The D is the real question mark imho. York is coming along but where he ends up is anybody’s guess. Top pair? I doubt it. And then there’s the head cases Sanheim and Provorov. What to do about them… 

 

Anyway…the Rangers got some big breaks that the Flyers can’t expect to get but the Flyers do have some talented young forwards. And steady goalkeepers. It’s the D that needs the real overhaul.

[RonJeremy]

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

True right now no one on the roster is at their level but that’s what development is all about. Tippett’s release is as good as Zibanejad’s he just needs to work on his accuracy. He’s made excellent progress this year in his overall game. Along with TK the Flyers probably already have a couple 30+ goal scorers. Noah Cates is another whose made great strides this season. Frost is (to me) a big “maybe.” If those 2 can raise their level next year the holes in the offense start to close.

 

The D is the real question mark imho. York is coming along but where he ends up is anybody’s guess. Top pair? I doubt it. And then there’s the head cases Sanheim and Provorov. What to do about them… 

 

Anyway…the Rangers got some big breaks that the Flyers can’t expect to get but the Flyers do have some talented young forwards. And steady goalkeepers. It’s the D that needs the real overhaul.

Yep, the D is a real problem and no true first or second line center.

[GratefulFlyers]

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

and no true first or second line center.

I’m sure everyone including Couturier himself is hoping he comes back and can be an effective top 6 center. I’m his biggest fan and even I’m in the “I’ll believe it when I see it” camp. He’s sure to get a lot of leeway but I hope Tortorella or whoever is HC next year isn’t forced to settle on Couturier - unless of course Couturier really can cut it.

 

If the Flyers are truly rebuilding they’ll have some tough decisions to make and Couturier’s role will be one of them.

[RonJeremy]

42 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I’m sure everyone including Couturier himself is hoping he comes back and can be an effective top 6 center. I’m his biggest fan and even I’m in the “I’ll believe it when I see it” camp. He’s sure to get a lot of leeway but I hope Tortorella or whoever is HC next year isn’t forced to settle on Couturier - unless of course Couturier really can cut it.

 

If the Flyers are truly rebuilding they’ll have some tough decisions to make and Couturier’s role will be one of them.

Well, no matter what we are stuck with a huge 7 year contract for a guy who is over 30 and coming off two back surgeries.  Coots as never a legit #1 center before the back problems . He was always a solid # 2, so I'm not too optimistic. A guy like Coots with his age, injuries and contract is the last thing a rebuilding team needs. If he does come back he might have  a couple of solid seasons, then he will be the new Hayes. Even if we kid ourselves and say he's a #1 center, we still don't have a # 2 unless Frost turns into a superstar next year. I'm going full rebuild,  I hope Coots, Ellis and Atkinson don't come back otherwise it's cap hell .

Edited March 20, 2023 by RonJeremy

[CoachX]

47 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

but I hope Tortorella or whoever is HC next year

So you think another coaching change is coming?

[RonJeremy]

24 minutes ago, CoachX said:

So you think another coaching change is coming?

I think Torts has done a good job with the young forwards, the defense is another story,  the only guy Torts got improvement from is Risto,.but I guess when you are that bad, you have to improve. Maybe we need a separate coach for dmen.