Game 71: Minnesota Wild at Philadelphia Flyers; 3/23/23 @ 6:30 PM, ESPN

[OccamsRazor]

32 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

The Flyers will have to sacrifice something valuable.

 

For what?

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

You’re joking of course but if you watched last night (or really any of the last 4 games) you know you’re not that far off. Not “easily winning the Cup” of course but just being a damn good team. They can’t sustain this level because they’ve got too much dead weight in key roles. Subtract the dead weight, replace it with actual talent and suddenly winning PO rounds, competing for the Cup is possible.

 

 Ya, obvious lack of talent. But it amazes me how they go on this run every year once they're eliminated and we're like "Ok, I guess the consolation prize is a high pick......oooops, it's gone"

 

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

Naturally every team is trying to do the same thing. Getting rid of Hayes, Ristolainen, DeAngelo won’t be easy. The Flyers will have to sacrifice something valuable.

 

 For Ristolainen, sure. Hayes and Deangelo should both bring something in return if there's retention. 

 

 

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

 

 

But this year proved one thing: the Flyers’ best players - the same guys everybody wondered, “what the hell is going on with him?” - are still plenty capable of being the core of a competitive team. Turns out - like you said about Farabee - they just got disgusted playing for an incompetent GM and a corporation that doesn’t give a flying fk about them. 
 

Comcast may still be there but good management will make sure the players never have to think about it, at least until it’s contract time.

 

 

 You can only take playing with no hope for so long. Even the most competetive athlete can get worn down by incompetence. It's just hard to fathom the idiots who hired the idiot in the first place. 

[GratefulFlyers]

26 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 For Ristolainen, sure. Hayes and Deangelo should both bring something in return if there's retention. 

 

I guess that's about the size of it. What worries me is that the

 

26 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

idiots who hired the idiot in the first place

 

won't think of moving Ristolainen because they believe he's the type you need to win PO rounds. The main idiot is gone but the rest of the cabal is still there. I guess we just have to hope the story about Scott firing Fletcher without consulting the senior advisors is true. And that Briere doesn't automatically turn to them for "help."

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by GratefulFlyers

[GrittyForever]

4 hours ago, radoran said:

 

The Pittsburgh Penguins say "Hello" *

 

There's a qualitative difference between deliberately being a terrible hockey team - a la the past 10+ years of the Buffalo Sabres - and playing for draft position.

 

You can obviously never tell a professional athlete not to compete or try to win the game. That's the entire point of the process.

 

"Tanking" is simply taking every step to remove as much talent as possible to make the very possibility of competing be at very least daunting. The Flyers didn't do that... intentionally... They didn't even manage to get rid of JVR...

 

To your point, iIf the Flyers aren't going to be in the bottom four - and Chicago, San Jose, Columbus, and Anaheim are in a league of their own for that honor - then it doesn't statistically matter a ton if they are 7/8/9 as the difference is 1.5% in the first overall lottery.

 

I don't think they are in much danger of creeping out of the #1 overall lottery entirely. That said, I'd rather compete with Montreal for position than get ahead of Arizona or Vancouver.

 

I think that's where a lot of people are - and it's just a matter of a percentage point of probability one way or t'other.

 

 

* virtually impossible to duplicate what they pulled off these days

Buffalo fans I know all agree that the tank was the moment that broke their once proud franchise. To a man every single one of them, many of whom cheered for the team to lose at that time, regret that moment. 

I would much rather build a culture and identity than tank for a draft pick no matter how hotshot he is.

But yes, they should have traded JVR but maybe not doing that was the straw that finally got us rid of Fletcher. If so, not trading him was the best move ever.

[OccamsRazor]

8 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

I guess that's about the size of it. What worries me is that the

 

 

won't think of moving Ristolainen because they believe he's the type you need to win PO rounds. The main idiot is gone but the rest of the cabal is still there. I guess we just have to hope the story about Scott firing Fletcher without consulting the senior advisors is true. And that Briere doesn't automatically turn to them for "help."

 

 

I won't speak for no one else but if you can bring this team back next season and when i glance at the roster and see Risto name and that is the only one that makes me wince - i call that a huge success. Because moving on from Hayes and DeAngelo is a lot in one offseason. 

 

So get through 2023-24 while still trying to rebuild and also trying to shape Risto into a serviceable D man and maybe by 2024-25 you have a chance of moving him. And if not pick up half his salary and you'd should be able to move him by then. And hey if you can move him soon than even better.

 

But the roster should be shaping up by then i hope and getting close to a serious run beyond the first round of the playoffs.

 

***puts crystal ball back into it's storage***

 

[flyercanuck]

27 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

 

But yes, they should have traded JVR but maybe not doing that was the straw that finally got us rid of Fletcher. If so, not trading him was the best move ever.

 

Very true. The same could be said about Tortorella....I've never been a fan until he was part and parcel of getting Fletcher fired. 

[radoran]

8 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

Buffalo fans I know all agree that the tank was the moment that broke their once proud franchise. To a man every single one of them, many of whom cheered for the team to lose at that time, regret that moment. 

 

I was living there for the start of it as they were tearing it all down and there was a sizeable segment that was in favor.

 

They've been in the wilderness a long time, but seem to be emerging with some solid young talent. I don't think many thought the trip was worth it.

 

Contrast that against 10 years of "definitely a playoff team" with not a whole heckuva lot more to show for it...

 

Of course, players like Bedard don't some around all that often, but it's terribly difficult to plan to be the worst at the right time to get your one in four chance of drafting the player.

 

Even the worst four teams only have a six in ten shot at Bedard (or whoever at #1).

 

The NHL has made "tanking" less and less attractive over the years.

[flyercanuck]

21 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I was living there for the start of it as they were tearing it all down and there was a sizeable segment that was in favor.

 

They've been in the wilderness a long time, but seem to be emerging with some solid young talent. I don't think many thought the trip was worth it.

 

Contrast that against 10 years of "definitely a playoff team" with not a whole heckuva lot more to show for it...

 

Of course, players like Bedard don't some around all that often, but it's terribly difficult to plan to be the worst at the right time to get your one in four chance of drafting the player.

 

Even the worst four teams only have a six in ten shot at Bedard (or whoever at #1).

 

The NHL has made "tanking" less and less attractive over the years.

 

I would never think players would agree to tank. But I don't see anything wrong with trading away players that you don't think are part of your plan for draft picks when there's an above average draft coming up...like Nashville, Chicago, San Jose and St. Louis  have done. 

 

Of course your franchise has to actually have a plan.

[radoran]

6 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

I don't see anything wrong with trading away players that you don't think are part of your plan for draft picks when there's an above average draft coming up...like Nashville, Chicago, San Jose and St. Louis  have done. 

 

And that's true, but that's true regardless of the draft.

 

Failing to deal JVR wasn't a failure to move up in this specific draft, failing to deal an expiring UFA 20-goal scorer for anything was an abject failure for any GM in any year, any time.

 

Honestly, aside from that, I don't know what else folks would want on this roster that the Flyers would be willing to sell off for draft capital. I'd sell anyone over the age of 25, except probably Konecny.

 

The whole "nobody wanted anything to do with the dreck of a roster I assembled" might not have been the masterstroke Chuck thought it was when it happened...

Edited March 24, 2023 by radoran

[radoran]

29 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Of course your franchise has to actually have a plan.

 

Also, too, "a plan" that results in years of losing for a one in four chance to draft a generational player is a fool's plan.

[GratefulFlyers]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

Honestly, aside from that, I don't know what else folks would want on this roster that the Flyers would be willing to sell off for draft capital.

Agreed and this may be a silver lining. The Flyers can help themselves tremendously by subtraction.
 

The deadweight stands out like a sore thumb; unloading it will be a challenge. Briere should spend all his energy trying to accomplish just that. There’s really only three after JVR is gone. And like @OccamsRazor says if Ristolainen is the last one remaining for 2023-24 it’s been a good summer.

 

The rest, like you said aren’t worth a helluva lot especially in the off-season. I would love to see what TK, Tippett, Frost, N. Cates etc can do without having to carry Hayes up and down the ice every night….how Provorov, Sanheim and York respond without DeAngelo (and Ristolainen) borking the defense.
 

Lose those three and the good feeling that spread throughout the room when Fletcher was fired, the sense that now they can finally get to work, that gets multiplied tenfold once the deadweight line mates are gone.

 

It’s a lot to ask from any GM, rid the team of 3 overpaid players in one offseason. But it has to be done, at least attempted. I wouldn’t say “whatever the cost” but almost.

[flyercanuck]

14 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

won't think of moving Ristolainen because they believe he's the type you need to win PO rounds. 

 

 

 

And they're too stupid to realize Ristolainen, in NINE years in the NHL, has never played a single playoff game. 

 

And he's a big reason he hasn't.

[OccamsRazor]

11 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

DeAngelo (and Ristolainen) borking the defense.

 

I think you have to at least offer to pick up 50% of his salary to move on. No picks aranything other than a dump for whatever back and i mean whatever pick or prospect any level just to make it happen.

 

You need to make room for Attard he is ready. He'll be 25 next season it is time to get these older college kids going and see where they are at.

 

Provorov Sanheim

York Attard 

Zamula Risto

 

I go hard after trying Provy and Sanheim again. And if not plan on moving one of them to make room for a right hand D man from some where (another story).

 

So yeah a small retool on the team with a mind for the future needs to be progress for the off season/summer.

 

I do not want to run it back with Hayes and DeAngelo again. I ain't going to lie i feels much better that what's his name is gone i don't want to say his name sorry...now continue to trim. 

 

And we haven't even got to the Atkinson discussion if he can play might as well try your best to move him they already don't have room at right wing.

 

Farabee -Coots- Konecny

Desnoyers -Frost- Tippett

Cates -Laughton- Allison

Deslauriers -Laczynski- Foerster

 

Brink and Lycksell need room to. So some rearranging is in need. Oh yeah and some skill so a big trade with a few pieces are in order.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

And they're too stupid to realize Ristolainen, in NINE years in the NHL, has never played a single playoff game. 

 

And the new leaders have to know it and that is why they are trying to slow him down and just work on defense and make it seem like he can be changed in order for them to eventually move on from him.

 

He's on the book for 4 more years nothing we can do about it now expect trying to get him to play defense on the bottom pair and go from there.

 

Till then it doesn't matter with him. He has all the tools now some get him to realize it and use them to his advantage. If he sees the wizard and gets a brain well then they have a chance. Till them let's focus our powers on removing Hayes and DeAngelo. Priority #1.

 

Finding a stud #1 defenseman is #2 and improving center #3....Or #2 you could flip flop those i'm not going to squabble. 

 

Baby steps...

[GratefulFlyers]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

Baby steps...

Sure, we can’t expect a 180 to happen in one summer. But getting rid of the 3 biggest Fletcher failures will do wonders for the team. I don’t think it can be overstated just how much their presence funks up the whole effort, not just to get younger, faster and smarter but the morale and the identity of the team.

 

I know I sound like a total dick, like I blame them for everything. I don’t. It’s just that the way they play goes against everything the Flyers are (supposedly) trying to do now.
 

 

[OccamsRazor]

7 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Sure, we can’t expect a 180 to happen in one summer.

 

Myself i can't say i have any expectations on what is going to happen. Guess i prefer to wait and see because none of basically know Danny B's style yet.

 

So cautiously optimistic is all i will say...

 

 

...Go Eagles!!!!