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Official…Keith Jones named President of Hockey Operations


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5 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:


haha that would be funny, right? I mean As If! 
 

but seriously @mojo1917 it isn’t Ristolainen’s salary or cap hit that makes him such a terrible defenseman - though of course I understand your point - but honestly even at league minimum as a 7th D-man he shouldn’t be part of the Flyers going forward. 
 

Guys have proposed moving TK and even Hart in service of the rebuild. That’s definitely one way to go but I think the most obviously deficient players like Hayes, Ristolainen and DeAngelo (who can skate btw 😛) need to go first. Prune the dead wood and then we can consider maximizing returns by trading some of the good players.

The point is, you trade TK or Hart, you're expecting a lot in return.  You trade Hayes, Ristolainen, or DeAngelo, you're giving up a lot to get rid of them.

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20 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

That said, he's not a complete garbage player (like Tony DeAngleo) which is general sentiment around here.

 

 

He's not a complete garbage player, he's just not very good, overpaid, and traded for at a ridiculous cost. 

 

If we'd got him with a 3rd round pick and he was signed for $2.5 million a year, he wouldn't be despised. But he wasn't and he isn't.

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Just now, SCFlyguy said:

  You trade Hayes, Ristolainen, or DeAngelo, you're giving up a lot to get rid of them.

I'd throw Provorov in that "expecting return" group. 

I think retaining salary is as far as these guys will go to rid themselves of bad contracts.

Everything I've heard in their media availability has me thinking DB and KJ are about asset acquisition either prospects or draft capital. I think the days of attaching a pick as a sweetener are gone with the Fletch.

 

I don't like the player but TDA may bring back something at the trade deadline next season if he isn't moved over the summer. If that doesn't work, he doesn't have to be offered a contract, that's one down with minimal pain. There is zero rush to "get rid of him" other than he's bad at defense. 

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1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

 

I think retaining salary is as far as these guys will go to rid themselves of bad contracts.

 

 

I agree completely. Of course Fletcher set the bar at "we'll throw picks in with every trade", but he's gone thank God. Retaining salary on Hayes might even get you a mid-round pick back.

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3 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I think retaining salary is as far as these guys will go to rid themselves of bad contracts.

 

Do you retain $2.5M of Ristolainen for four years or do this?

image.png

 

I think they could actually get something of value in return for retaining, but a buyout isn't the onerous option I might have thought it was

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47 minutes ago, radoran said:

a buyout isn't the onerous option I might have thought it was

 

Here's a buyout after next season:

image.png

 

Again, I think if they retain $2.5M for four years they could get something of value. Otherwise, the buyout option looks pretty viable.

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14 hours ago, radoran said:

Otherwise, the buyout option looks pretty viable.

 

It's almost never a good idea to buy out a player. In all but the most desperate situation - Bryzgalov e.g. - buying out a player is a horribly weak way to GM.

 

I get what you're saying - the dollars are comparatively small - and as a last resort sure, go for it. He (and Hayes) are huge impediments to the Flyers' rebuild so yes, get rid of them ASAP. But buying out Ristolainen should be embarrassing for Briere. He'd  basically be saying "this job is too hard for me."*

 

* assuming Ristolainen doesn't have a no-trade list like Hayes.

 

 

Edited by GratefulFlyers
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4 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I get what you're saying - the dollars are comparatively small - and as a last resort sure, go for it.

 

This is it.

 

If you can open a roster spot for a player you feel fits and save ~$2.5M while doing so, that's not a bad GM decision, that's prudent.

 

The Bryzgalov buyout didn't hurt them at all - it was a compliance buyout outside the cap.

 

A real buyout question is the Suter/Parise buyouts in Minny. Losing significant cap space for years is a real tough call.

 

Obviously as I said you try to move Ristolainen and retain salary to obtain an asset.

 

In the absence of that...

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4 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

But buying out Ristolainen should be embarrassing for Briere. He'd  basically be saying "this job is too hard for me."*

 

I find this to be an odd assumption. 

There is math to suggest the dead money of the buyout is similar to the salary retention. 

 

If opening up a roster spot, is more important to building the team than the 1.7.aav . I don't see where buying him out is "defeat".

 

Obviously if an asset can be acquired via salary retention that's the way to go. It takes two to tango and if there isn't interest in Risto league wide, a decision needs made about the value of the player playing at that .aav vs the change of direction. 

 

I like @radoran 's point in another thread about the lack of attachment to Fletcher players. I think if anything can be gained in a trade- the Ristos and TDA s will be playing for different teams.

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Buying out Risto means you save cap space in the near term when the team is bad, and have a cap hit in later years when you hope the team is turned around and ready to compete.  That make zero sense to me.

 

Risto is actually an asset right now imo - he will make them draft higher than whoever replaces him.

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3 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Risto is actually an asset right now imo - he will make them draft higher than whoever replaces him.


He’s an asset in this sense (and only this sense): he’s a tradeable asset. Banking on him to help you lose…no offense intended but the less said about that idea the better.

 

If Briere wants to get rid of Ristolainen and he’s willing to retain salary, coming to the fans in September and saying, “I tried, honest, I really did but nobody wanted him” (or whatever PR version he comes up with) will be a Major Fail and all too reminiscent of the former guy.

 

The question is are the Flyers motivated to dump Ristolainen? I like to think Tortorella’s on board and wants him gone but the other two? And god forbid if the Old Guard is still chiming in…

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14 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

He’s an asset in this sense (and only this sense): he’s a tradeable asset. Banking on him to help you lose…no offense intended but the less said about that idea the better.

No, let's talk about it.

 

Having to turn the team around quickly and shortsighted burning cap or assets to do it is a quick summary of the last 20 years of the team.  I'm not sure why you want to repeat that process.

 

Let the team crater naturally.  Let the bad contracts expire. Acquire assets for the future with the few trade chips you have (Konecny, Provorov, and maybe Hart).  That's not tanking, that's being smart.

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The idea that the Flyers can retain $2.55M for Risto and suddenly he is a hot trade commodity is laughable.

 

Let's put it this way: if Risto was on another team, would you give up a pick to trade for him, even at half his salary (n.b. there are no longer 20th round picks)?

 

If your answer is yes, have you thought about applying for a front office job with the Flyers?  They are looking for people just like you.

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40 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

The idea that the Flyers can retain $2.55M for Risto and suddenly he is a hot trade commodity is laughable.

 

A "hot trade commodity" and a "tradeable piece" are two different things.

 

He's much more attractive as a $2.5M player than he is as a $5.1M player.

 

If he gets you a 4th that's better than nothing.

 

And all that is weighed against the benefits of either buying him out or keeping him on the roster.

Edited by radoran
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On 5/19/2023 at 3:31 PM, flyercanuck said:

 

He's not a complete garbage player, he's just not very good, overpaid, and traded for at a ridiculous cost. 

 

If we'd got him with a 3rd round pick and he was signed for $2.5 million a year, he wouldn't be despised. But he wasn't and he isn't.

 

 

Good news they found Kuato!!!!

 

I know you guys miss him...

 

🤣

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8 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Good news they found Kuato!!!!

 

I know you guys miss him...

 

🤣

 

OMG! That's gold! 

 

Kuato...forgotten all about that arsehole. What a piece of work he was. 

 

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14 hours ago, radoran said:

He's much more attractive as a $2.5M player than he is as a $5.1M player.


exactly and that’s why I think that if the Flyers want him gone…and I pray they do…Briere ought to be able to get something for him, like you said even a 4R. I’d take that over seeing him in the O&B any day.

 

Watch the playoffs this year and try to imagine either him or Hayes skating for one of the 4 teams in the Conference Finals. It can’t be done. 
 

Edited by GratefulFlyers
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alot of people just dont get or understand this hire it's because they are no great candidates like there are no sakics or stevy y type of gms on the market, the only thing you are getting from the candidates available is pretty much the same thing as what you got from hextall and fletch, like you have to develop your staff as some point and not try to take someone else from another team because you have no clue what you are getting from that person like hextall, everyone thought we were getting that la structure from hextall which turns out we didnt, cant make that same mistake again.

 

if you want a winning structure and identity from tampa, carolina, florida, vegas, you have to hire that gm that gets let go or resigned from those teams that created that, not the assistants, they have their own ways of doing things.

 

worst case it doesnt work and better coaches and gms from those teams will become available in 3 to 4 years and will get this team over the hump, it'something that you have to patient for.

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

alot of people just dont get or understand this hire it's because they are no great candidates like there are no sakics or stevy y type of gms on the market, the only thing you are getting from the candidates available is pretty much the same thing as what you got from hextall and fletch, like you have to develop your staff as some point and not try to take someone else from another team because you have no clue what you are getting from that person like hextall, everyone thought we were getting that la structure from hextall which turns out we didnt, cant make that same mistake again.

 

if you want a winning structure and identity from tampa, carolina, florida, vegas, you have to hire that gm that gets let go or resigned from those teams that created that, not the assistants, they have their own ways of doing things.

 

worst case it doesnt work and better coaches and gms from those teams will become available in 3 to 4 years and will get this team over the hump, it'something that you have to patient for.

 

 

 

 

I honestly don't get, or understand this post. Im pretty sure most of us understand these hirings pretty well, as evident by the in depth discussions. What point are trying to make? Are you defending the Flyers or criticizing them? Your statement that you "develop" your staff is truly puzzling. You normally hire an established professional with a proven track record. Then you let that person "develop" your team and culture.

 

Are you actually saying the Flyers, who are rebuilding the line up, should just be patient and wait for a better coach, GM, and Pres become available, then hire them to run the team with the lineup the current guys are rebuilding?

image.png.c2412d56aca38970f1208c0faebec31a.png

image.png.c2412d56aca38970f1208c0faebec31a.png

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1 hour ago, CoachX said:

I honestly don't get, or understand this post. Im pretty sure most of us understand these hirings pretty well, as evident by the in depth discussions. What point are trying to make? Are you defending the Flyers or criticizing them? Your statement that you "develop" your staff is truly puzzling. You normally hire an established professional with a proven track record. Then you let that person "develop" your team and culture.

 

Are you actually saying the Flyers, who are rebuilding the line up, should just be patient and wait for a better coach, GM, and Pres become available, then hire them to run the team with the lineup the current guys are rebuilding?

image.png.c2412d56aca38970f1208c0faebec31a.png

image.png.c2412d56aca38970f1208c0faebec31a.png

you dont get it, well, point to me who is the next joe sakic or steve y then? hextall? dubus? Treliving? Botterill? brad holland? none of these guys are clear upgrades, they havent won nothing. like i said if you want a cup gm, you have to hire that guy that did it and they are not easy to acquire. i mean whoever they hire it's going to be a question mark right now because there are no clear upgrades, so yeah if briere fails then you have to be patient for that guy, sorry but that's just the way it is in hockey. it's not easy to build a championship when there's a salary cap and the right players have to be there in fa or trades.

 

when there was no salary cap it was easy to build a championship because you can get stars for nothing, now it's harder with the salary cap because you have to rely on picks and spend on the right players. dont blame me, im just pointing out facts, blame the system by the nhl that made it harder.

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1 hour ago, tucson83 said:

when there was no salary cap it was easy to build a championship because you can get stars for nothing, now it's harder with the salary cap because you have to rely on picks and spend on the right players. dont blame me, im just pointing out

30 years between our last Cup and the end of the no cap era.   Obviously, it was extremely easy to build a champion.

 

Do you leave your house? How do you find your way home?  You just string a bunch of incoherent gibberish together. Every post.  If stupid posts hurt people, |we'd all be on ventilators.

Edited by ruxpin
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2 hours ago, tucson83 said:

when there was no salary cap it was easy to build a championship because you can get stars for nothing

 Huh .....   You get stars for nothing?????   :dizzysmiley-1:  

 

So the stars are playing for free??  Explain yourself.... Inquiring minds want to know?

 

Cap was instituted in 2005-06 season.  If "it was easy to build a championship because you get stars for nothing" .. (your words)

 

Then explain to me why the same 5 teams between 1985 and 2005 have 14 of the 20 Stanley Cup Championships. 

 

Edmonton 4

NJ 3

Detroit 3

Pittsburgh 2

Colorado 2

 

If it is sooooo easy as you suggested then there should have a greater diversity among the championship teams.  Yet these 5 cornered the market in SC championships.

Edited by pilldoc
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